Zone1 The Ends Justify The Means?

[JoeMoma]

The statement "The ends justify the means" is usually considered wrong or even evil, but is that really true? For example, telling lies is considered a bad thing. There is even a commandment to not lie in the bible. That said, if a gang breaks into my house looking for women to rape and possible even murder, would it be wrong to tell them there are no women in my house even if I had some women hiding in my house in a safe room.

Of course the right thing to do would be to lie to them lying would help protect the women. In the case, the ends would justify the means.

Usually those that say the ends do not justify the means are considering examples that don't fully consider the "ends" and the "means". For example, suppose I need money. I can get money by robbing another person...the end's justify the means right? Well no! One of the ends is I get money which I consider good, but the other ends is a person is harmed by taking his money. So if all the ends (results) are considered, the ends do not justify the means.

Thoughts? Do the ends justify the means, yes or no?

 

[MarcATL]

No, they don't.

 

[Maxdeath]

Ethics plays a large part in any decision.
Take your two examples. Helping the women would be the ethical thing so lying would be the better thing to do. Robbing someone is not ethical so it would be the wrong thing to do.
The problem with ethics is some people are not taught ethics and some are willing to skirt around ethics. While yet others see ethics as being malleable

 

[BreezeWood]

There is even a commandment to not lie in the bible.

their own example of expedient means for illicit ends.

there are no heavenly commandments - those madeup are used by desert dwellers to persecute and victimize the innocent - o p is a victim or perpetrator of their own abuse using means for false ends of religious intolerance and oppression.

 

[TheInfiniteSadness]

The statement "The ends justify the means" is usually considered wrong or even evil, but is that really true? For example, telling lies is considered a bad thing. There is even a commandment to not lie in the bible. That said, if a gang breaks into my house looking for women to rape and possible even murder, would it be wrong to tell them there are no women in my house even if I had some women hiding in my house in a safe room.

Of course the right thing to do would be to lie to them lying would help protect the women. In the case, the ends would justify the means.

Usually those that say the ends do not justify the means are considering examples that don't fully consider the "ends" and the "means". For example, suppose I need money. I can get money by robbing another person...the end's justify the means right? Well no! One of the ends is I get money which I consider good, but the other ends is a person is harmed by taking his money. So if all the ends (results) are considered, the ends do not justify the means.

Thoughts? Do the ends justify the means, yes or no?

If a gang broke into your home to rape and murder women they wouldn't give you the opportunity to lie. You'd be the first to be eliminated.

 

[MisterBeale]

"The ends justify the means" is usually considered wrong or even evil, but is that really true?

Yes.


. . . .and creating hypothetical situations where it isn't, is not a good way to do ethics.

 

[JoeMoma]

If a gang broke into your home to rape and murder women they wouldn't give you the opportunity to lie. You'd be the first to be eliminated.

You are probably right..... but you should still be able to understand the example in context.

 

[JoeMoma]

Yes.


. . . .and creating hypothetical situations where it isn't, is not a good way to do ethics.

Well, do you have any real situations you would like to use as examples?

 

[JoeMoma]

No, they don't.

Do you have anything to say to support that claim?

 

[MisterBeale]

Well, do you have any real situations you would like to use as examples?

Cartel and Chinese paying off American politicians to get what they desire by corrupting our politicians. . . .

. . . is that ethical? Of course not.

 

[MarcATL]

Do you have anything to say to support that claim?

Simple thing called principle. That's it, that's all.

I don't expect you to understand.

 

[JoeMoma]

Cartel and Chinese paying off American politicians to get what they desire by corrupting our politicians. . . .

. . . is that ethical? Of course not.

So would it be ethical for CIA agents to pay off Chinese officials/politicians to get results that benefit the United States? Perhaps a CIA agent pays a Chinese official to help smuggle an American prisoner out of China. Would this be corrupting the Chinese official to get what we want? Is this ethical?

Note: Your example is not really specific enough to make a judgement beyond the bias language. What do I mean by bias language? Well, they were "corrupting" our politicians, so that is bad. Also, we assume that whatever the cartels or Chinese want is bad. Your example does not specify exactly the Ends are that the Cartel or Chinese are bribing the American politicians to do.

 

[mudwhistle]

The statement "The ends justify the means" is usually considered wrong or even evil, but is that really true? For example, telling lies is considered a bad thing. There is even a commandment to not lie in the bible. That said, if a gang breaks into my house looking for women to rape and possible even murder, would it be wrong to tell them there are no women in my house even if I had some women hiding in my house in a safe room.

Of course the right thing to do would be to lie to them lying would help protect the women. In the case, the ends would justify the means.

Usually those that say the ends do not justify the means are considering examples that don't fully consider the "ends" and the "means". For example, suppose I need money. I can get money by robbing another person...the end's justify the means right? Well no! One of the ends is I get money which I consider good, but the other ends is a person is harmed by taking his money. So if all the ends (results) are considered, the ends do not justify the means.

Thoughts? Do the ends justify the means, yes or no?

Sometimes the means to an end are a bit unpleasant.

However if the ends are more unpleasant than the means.....neither is justifiable.

 

[MisterBeale]

So would it be ethical for CIA agents to pay of Chinese officials/politicians to get results that benefit the United States? Perhaps a CIA agent pays a Chinese official to help smuggle an American prisoner out of China. Would this be corrupting the Chinese official to get what we want?

Of course it isn't ethical, don't be daft.

. . . but they do that shit anyway.

Strong Warnings from the Founders

Dear Friends, One of the most remarkable observations in the study of history is the caution and warnings that are always given by Founders of great civilizations. It seems that those who lay foundations for great civilizations are quite aware of the seeds of pride, selfishness, and contention...

nccs.net

Whatever power folks give to the government to fight its perceived foreign enemies, eventually, those powers are then directed inward, and they are always used against domestic opposition to whomever is in power.