The election controversy

[P@triot]

Let me start by stating this thread is aimed at conservatives. We already know that the left - which has been crying "conspiracy" over the elections - will fail to think for themselves and will immediately mock the premise, attack the sources, ignore the facts, and deny reality. Save yourself the time and just stop reading now.

For everyone else - in August the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security held a press conference and declared that the elections should fall under DHS since it is "critical infrastructure". This is indisputable fact.

Homeland eyes special declaration to take charge of elections

Shortly after the elections, an audit by the state of Georgia traced the IP addresses from some hacking back to the Department of Homeland Security offices. This too is indisputable fact.

RED ALERT: Obama's Feds Caught HACKING Office Handling Election Results

And of course, the big story is all about the accusations that Russia interfered in the election. At this time, we really do not know what is fact and what isn't.

Russian hacking and the 2016 election, explained - CNNPolitics.com

When you put all of this together - it's entirely plausible that after getting their asses kicked in the election, Barack Obama saw an opportunity to move the elections under the control of the federal government by either lying about what occurred or conducting a false-flag operation. Russia has adamantly denied it all along (which is no surprise and there really is no reason to trust them). However, Julian Assange and WikiLeaks has also denied that Russia was involved all along and there is endless reasons to trust them as their entire organization was conceived on truth and transparency. When you consider the desires of the Obama Administration to control the elections and their long history of dishonesty and corruption, it warrants some serious examination.

 

[TomParks]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

 

[P@triot]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

 

[TomParks]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

 

[P@triot]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

 

[william the wie]

The proposed commission could get very messy. Seth Rich, DHS hacking Georgia and who knows what else could make the Ds look very bad.

 

[emilynghiem]

Let me start by stating this thread is aimed at conservatives. We already know that the left - which has been crying "conspiracy" over the elections - will fail to think for themselves and will immediately mock the premise, attack the sources, ignore the facts, and deny reality. Save yourself the time and just stop reading now.

For everyone else - in August the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security held a press conference and declared that the elections should fall under DHS since it is "critical infrastructure". This is indisputable fact.

Homeland eyes special declaration to take charge of elections

Shortly after the elections, an audit by the state of Georgia traced the IP addresses from some hacking back to the Department of Homeland Security offices. This too is indisputable fact.

RED ALERT: Obama's Feds Caught HACKING Office Handling Election Results

And of course, the big story is all about the accusations that Russia interfered in the election. At this time, we really do not know what is fact and what isn't.

Russian hacking and the 2016 election, explained - CNNPolitics.com

When you put all of this together - it's entirely plausible that after getting their asses kicked in the election, Barack Obama saw an opportunity to move the elections under the control of the federal government by either lying about what occurred or conducting a false-flag operation. Russia has adamantly denied it all along (which is no surprise and there really is no reason to trust them). However, Julian Assange and WikiLeaks has also denied that Russia was involved all along and there is endless reasons to trust them as their entire organization was conceived on truth and transparency. When you consider the desires of the Obama Administration to control the elections and their long history of dishonesty and corruption, it warrants some serious examination.

I see the Trump win as proof there WASN'T manipulation and hacking by the Democrats/Liberals greedy for political control at all costs.

If this control/monopoly game is just going to get worse and worse,
I suggest we use this opportunity NOW to set up and shift AS MUCH GOVT CONTROL AS POSSIBLE
BACK TO
PEOPLE
STATES even
PARTIES to manage their OWN programs.

At this point, people are almost "paranoid" on ALL SIDES of what the other parties will do.
If we agree we want control over our own taxes, programs and policies,
let's recognize this mutual need for direct representation over soft/social programs.

Why not form agreements among all party members and leaders
to shift the taxes for domestic social programs where people can
pay this to their local states or parties they AGREE represents them,
and take back control for managing, developing and sustaining their own policies.

LOCALIZE everything, minimalize what gets delegated to federal govt,
and that's less that can be hijacked if one party or another decides to monopolize central control.

All the power and resources should be localized AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
so there is direct accountability to taxpayers at the source.

Reduce federal govt to just the minimum that all groups agree to entrust on that level.

At this point, that would be very minimal!

Any party who wants big centralized govt can invest in that through their
own party constituents that represent them,
so they are supporting the same policy with likeminded members.

Quit giving money to a central pool for parties to fight over.
Only put money there under conditions that all parties agree to fund.
And delegate the rest to parties or states, proportionally to their taxpaying membership.

 

[P@triot]

At this point, people are almost "paranoid" on ALL SIDES of what the other parties will do.

And that is the part that makes me laugh the hardest. Progressives demand unlimited power for Barack Obama and celebrate when he indulges them. But then they lose their shit when a Republican (like Donald Trump) takes office.

Well - if we had maintained constitutional government, Donald Trump would not pose a threat to any American. It's a valuable lesson. Unfortunately - it's one they aren't learning.

 

[occupied]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breadth of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

 

[emilynghiem]

At this point, people are almost "paranoid" on ALL SIDES of what the other parties will do.

And that is the part that makes me laugh the hardest. Progressives demand unlimited power for Barack Obama and celebrate when he indulges them. But then they lose their shit when a Republican (like Donald Trump) takes office.

Well - if we had maintained constitutional government, Donald Trump would not pose a threat to any American. It's a valuable lesson. Unfortunately - it's one they aren't learning.

It's never too late to learn. Experience, going THROUGH the process is the best way.
For some people Obama was the first time they ever paid attention to govt or got involved in govt, public policy or media coverage AT ALL.

Can you imagine starting the learning curve with that period of time,
next to people who have been following history since the inception of the Constitution?

There is a LOT to catch up on. The learning curve is generations behind in the gaps.
So now, we DO have an opportunity to TEACH Constitutional govt and local responsibility for business and educational/social program development.
The Democratic Party and trouncing of their own constituency
practically OWES this to the membership that has been disenfranchised and defrauded.

It may seem late in the game, but better late than never!

Why not approach the people and parties left out of govt representation
and offer to mentor and invest in rebuilding and reorganizing the
schools, health care, and social programs per district and state,
creating jobs for party members and leaders to manage these independently?

I plan to write this proposal to Texas Congress reps and Governor/AG.

The Democrats facing a whole new learning curve on self govt
would need support in order to take on this responsibility for training
their constituency bases to manage their own programs locally, instead of relying on federal govt.

This proposal will have greater credibility by organizing support
from party members from all parties, willing to invest in education and training.

If just a few key members or leaders see the potential in collaborating across parties,
it wouldn't be long before other groups catch on and see this opportunity to change
the paradigm, and truly work toward empowerment, ownership, and equality at all levels of representation
between people and govt, on local state or national levels.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breath of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

Dear occupied
the same way many workers groups who rallied against either Clinton or Trump as not representing the working people and issues,
how long before we organize between worker unions and interests
in America, in China, and other politically oppressed areas.

If we in America need to set up more direct communication and representation
between our govt and our workers and other people organized by parties,
why can't the same process be set up for Chinese workers to communicate with their leaders.
Russia and surrounding regions to interface with Russian leaders?

Could we the people push for collaborative govt relations.
And push for negotiations together, that truly represent the populations affected?

Whatever we can build around Trump so that he can have townhall meetings, forums
and input on a populist level, and work out negotiations and reforms that represent the
interests and benefits of the people affected by these policies,
can't we argue to create this model and encourage the leaders in Russia and China
to develop similar so they can grow in power to manage the full extent and demands of their populations?

If we face the same problems or similar with Russia and China having more people than they can represent centrally,
wouldn't the same solutions that help us in America also work for diverse populations struggling in other large countries?

 

[occupied]

I don't trust Obama to anything and I don't believe the Russia stuff. Hillary losing was Americans voting against Obama and he cannot accept it. The real crooks are the democrats and DNC....they were fully exposed as the frauds they are. If Russia hacked the DNC so what..they got what they deserved.

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breath of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

Dear occupied
the same way many workers groups who rallied against either Clinton or Trump as not representing the working people and issues,
how long before we organize between worker unions and interests
in America, in China, and other politically oppressed areas.

If we in America need to set up more direct communication and representation
between our govt and our workers and other people organized by parties,
why can't the same process be set up for Chinese workers to communicate with their leaders.
Russia and surrounding regions to interface with Russian leaders?

Could we the people push for collaborative govt relations.
And push for negotiations together, that truly represent the populations affected?

Whatever we can build around Trump so that he can have townhall meetings, forums
and input on a populist level, and work out negotiations and reforms that represent the
interests and benefits of the people affected by these policies,
can't we argue to create this model and encourage the leaders in Russia and China
to develop similar so they can grow in power to manage the full extent and demands of their populations?

If we face the same problems or similar with Russia and China having more people than they can represent centrally,
wouldn't the same solutions that help us in America also work for diverse populations struggling in other large countries?

I really like it that you are one of the few policy oriented people on this board but we must work within the system we have, not the system we wish we had. There is zero chance that the way things are done is going to change in ways that favor the working class as long as the plutocracy can successfully pit us against each other.

 

[Syriusly]

When you put all of this together - it's entirely plausible that after getting their asses kicked in the election, Barack Obama saw an opportunity to move the elections under the control of the federal government by either lying about what occurred or conducting a false-flag operation..

LOL- only plausible to your fellow right wing nut jobs who live for Alex Jones and Infowars.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breath of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

Dear occupied
the same way many workers groups who rallied against either Clinton or Trump as not representing the working people and issues,
how long before we organize between worker unions and interests
in America, in China, and other politically oppressed areas.

If we in America need to set up more direct communication and representation
between our govt and our workers and other people organized by parties,
why can't the same process be set up for Chinese workers to communicate with their leaders.
Russia and surrounding regions to interface with Russian leaders?

Could we the people push for collaborative govt relations.
And push for negotiations together, that truly represent the populations affected?

Whatever we can build around Trump so that he can have townhall meetings, forums
and input on a populist level, and work out negotiations and reforms that represent the
interests and benefits of the people affected by these policies,
can't we argue to create this model and encourage the leaders in Russia and China
to develop similar so they can grow in power to manage the full extent and demands of their populations?

If we face the same problems or similar with Russia and China having more people than they can represent centrally,
wouldn't the same solutions that help us in America also work for diverse populations struggling in other large countries?

I really like it that you are one of the few policy oriented people on this board but we must work within the system we have, not the system we wish we had. There is zero chance that the way things are done is going to change in ways that favor the working class as long as the plutocracy can successfully pit us against each other.

So let's beat this whole game of pitting us against each other.
I just went to a Bernie Sanders meeting of old school Socialist workers.
The common goal is to end the "class conflict paradigm" so the lack of conflict
reduces the power of the state to intervene and impose political order.

We agreed on empowering and organizing workers and business owners
to take back control and ownership through business and worker coops.

Sure, there is healthy skepticism if independent Trump and conservative supporters
can get over the labels and collaborate with socialist advocates with the goals of worker ownership of production.

But out of pure necessity to protect our interests and representation,
I believe such partnership is inevitable. People just cannot handle or submit to threat of
dictatorship by a competing hostile political interest, and will overcome barriers to protect their interests.

So even out of pure selfish drive to defend their political beliefs,
I see little choice but to unite on common principles. And use our diversity
to lobby together, for double the impact. I think we will get what we ask for in unison.

As you said well, if we are pitted "against each other" that is the key reason we remain powerless victims.

Are we ready to put this aside for our own survival?
I think we are very very close, and it just takes asking, inviting and introducing
people across party lines and labels, and the common principles and goals will develop from there.

It's just a matter of time before we figure this out, by trial and error,
by trying everything else and failing, by process of elimination.

So we are at the turning point in our learning curve.
And I think we are meant to win, by uniting and ending the politics of victimhood and dependence.

This time I think we can pull it off.
Do we really have any other choice?

 

[P@triot]

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breadth of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

I've got news for you - Vladimir Putin didn't morph into a fascist during the Obama Administration. He's been one since his days of the KGB. That's exactly what you progressives loved about him. Just like Fidel Castro - who Obama worked so hard to ingratiate himself to. But when Republicans achieve something you Dumbocrats weren't able to - you're suddenly against it after you were for it.

 

[P@triot]

When you put all of this together - it's entirely plausible that after getting their asses kicked in the election, Barack Obama saw an opportunity to move the elections under the control of the federal government by either lying about what occurred or conducting a false-flag operation..

LOL- only plausible to your fellow right wing nut jobs who live for Alex Jones and Infowars.

If you weren't illiterate - you would have understood my opening sentence and stopped there. Ask an adult for help.

 

[P@triot]

I really like it that you are one of the few policy oriented people on this board but we must work within the system we have, not the system we wish we had. There is zero chance that the way things are done is going to change in ways that favor the working class as long as the plutocracy can successfully pit us against each other.

That is hilarious - nobody is more "policy driven" than I am. Yet you lose your shit when I post because the facts prove conservative policies work best and that conflicts with your ideology. So you "pit" yourself against me.

You have to love progressives - they absolutely cannot see the forest for the trees.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't trust Russia at all - but I haven't been given any reason not to trust WikiLeaks. And considering Obama has been caught in more lies and scandals than any president in U.S. history, I'll go with WikiLeaks until I'm given a compelling reason not to.

I agree...what made me most uncomfortable during the election was all the neocons coming to Hillary's defense.....they are hell bent on causing a crisis with Russia and I would like to know why.

I find it fall down hilarious that they swooned and praised Obama for wanting relations with Russia (remember the infamous "reset button"?) and then losing their minds when Trump seemingly achieves exactly what they desired but Obama was unable to.

The difference is that when Obama came into office Russia had not yet invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, butted into the Syrian civil war and launched a espionage operation against our election. Those who actually pay attention will know just how horribly fascist Russia has become in the last few years. After coming within a hair's breath of being an actual western democracy it is terribly disappointing to see Russia fall into rightist authoritarianism, it is doubly disappointing to see "conservative" Americans fall into the same ideological trap.

Dear occupied
the same way many workers groups who rallied against either Clinton or Trump as not representing the working people and issues,
how long before we organize between worker unions and interests
in America, in China, and other politically oppressed areas.

If we in America need to set up more direct communication and representation
between our govt and our workers and other people organized by parties,
why can't the same process be set up for Chinese workers to communicate with their leaders.
Russia and surrounding regions to interface with Russian leaders?

Could we the people push for collaborative govt relations.
And push for negotiations together, that truly represent the populations affected?

Whatever we can build around Trump so that he can have townhall meetings, forums
and input on a populist level, and work out negotiations and reforms that represent the
interests and benefits of the people affected by these policies,
can't we argue to create this model and encourage the leaders in Russia and China
to develop similar so they can grow in power to manage the full extent and demands of their populations?

If we face the same problems or similar with Russia and China having more people than they can represent centrally,
wouldn't the same solutions that help us in America also work for diverse populations struggling in other large countries?

I really like it that you are one of the few policy oriented people on this board but we must work within the system we have, not the system we wish we had. There is zero chance that the way things are done is going to change in ways that favor the working class as long as the plutocracy can successfully pit us against each other.

Dear occupied Thanks for being open to new approaches while remaining cautiously realistic at the same time.
In order to get from here to there,
please help me research the RICO act and provisions for restitution to victims and communities affected by organized crime.

Currently the laws are used for NONGOVT criminal racketeering.
So contraband and even property like houses abused for trafficking
can be seized either by law enforcement or claimed by crime VICTIMS and Communities.

We don't have this for govt, because of govt immunity and different procedures for dealing
with govt and military, etc.

What if we expand on this RICO restitution provision to hold GOVT and Corporations like Democratic Pary co-conspirators found guilty of COLLUDING to violate civil rights and protections of others, whether for political or profit motive.

What if we pressure the parties and candidates/leaders found responsible to
VOLUNTARILY agree to the same standards of restitution that the govt
enforces for nongovt individuals, gangs, or organized criminal operations.

And if they don't agree to equal enforcement of standards, if caught violating ethical Constitutional civil or criminal statutes, why not have taxpayers and voters unions by party agree NOT to fund or support ANY SUCH CANDIDATES.
(for unauthorized or contested spending of tax money, I would compare the system of fraud protection used by credit card companies. Why not have taxpayer protection where any fraud, conflict of interest, or waste due to abuse of govt is charged back to the wrongdoers and not to the public who didn't commit the crimes. How hard would it be to expand the federal reserve system to track debts and damages owed to the public, and issue CREDITS or NOTES against these to finance reforms, while holding the Wrongdoers to paying back the debts plus the legal fees, interest on "loans" and other restitution.)

If we model a system after
* RICO
* the OSHA code, and penalty and hearing system for issuing citations and corrections
(but use these Constitutional and ethics codes as the basis of complaints against govt abuses:
www.ethics-commission.net)
* the Grand Jury system but make it run by people appointed by each party to receive and redress grievances by people complaining
of abuses by govt, party, media, religious or political groups, nonprofit or business corporations

How hard would it be to go from what we have now
to a more enforceable system of people checking govt against abuses?