The difference between anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Prior to the International Conventions for Map Sheet Names, it was not uncommon for Map Publishers to Sheet Name Maps. Over the last Century, the codification of Map Names and Reference Numbers have been standardized.

Don't confuse the Map Name "Palestine" with the very different application of "Palestinian Territory." The name of the Map Sheet is not bound by the limit of the map. It is more the name of the territory in the center of the map sheet.

Well before the turn of the century --- it became customary to use Regional Name "Palestine" in the decisions at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 that the mandates system, outlined in article 22 of the covenant of the League of Nations should be applied to the non-Turkish portions of the Ottoman Empire.

The Mandate for Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom by the Supreme Council of the Allied Powers at San Remo on the 25th April, 1920.
Supporting that decision --- the designation of the territory by name was defined in the 1922 Palestine Order In Council:

View attachment 75048​

When did it become Palestinian territory if they never took it up ? It was not until 1988 that the arab muslims declared a provisional Palestine nation.

WHAT PALESTINIAN TERRITORY WAS OCCUPIED IN 1949 BY Israel IF PALESTINE NEVER TOOK UP SOVEREIGNTY OF ANY LAND

Your criterion is irrelevant.

(COMMENT)

So, to answer your question: The territory identified by the Order in Council.

The territorial identification and cartography designations has nothing at all to do with the effective control by the Forward Edge of the Battle Area on which much of the Armistice Arrangement were based upon.

Most Respectfully.
R[/QUOTE]
So what does all that have to do with my post?

 

[RoccoR]

"P F Tinmore, et al,

You ask the question: "WHAT PALESTINIAN TERRITORY WAS OCCUPIED IN 1949 BY Israel IF PALESTINE NEVER TOOK UP SOVEREIGNTY OF ANY LAND"

So, to answer your question: The territory identified by the Order in Council.

The territorial identification and cartography designations has nothing at all to do with the effective control by the Forward Edge of the Battle Area on which much of the Armistice Arrangement were based upon.

Most Respectfully.
R

So what does all that have to do with my post?[/QUOTE]
(COMMENT)

The answer explains the name. In fact, all of the territory that was not under Israeli self-determination was occupied by Aggressor Arab League Forces.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Again - link to support your claim that targeting and killing civilians is in anyway legitimate or a legitimate product of a "liberation" movement?

I do realize that as a Hllbilly-American,. you probably were not taught that posting in great, big fonts is considered shouting, and rude as such, but I forgive you for your lack of upbringing.

As to the subject matter, however, making excuses for members of an Arab majority murdering a Jewish minority is definitely a product of antisemitism.

Do you not have a link to support your accusations or is your pathetic attempt to make fun of West Virginians all you can come up with? You make pretty serious accusations over and over, so how about a link to something I've said supporting what you claimed? Otherwise you are nothing more than a troll, following me around crapping on threads.

Now here is another question for you - where have I ever supported murder? Can you manage two questions without taking a dump?

I'll settle for just one link.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"P F Tinmore, et al,

You ask the question: "WHAT PALESTINIAN TERRITORY WAS OCCUPIED IN 1949 BY Israel IF PALESTINE NEVER TOOK UP SOVEREIGNTY OF ANY LAND"

So, to answer your question: The territory identified by the Order in Council.

The territorial identification and cartography designations has nothing at all to do with the effective control by the Forward Edge of the Battle Area on which much of the Armistice Arrangement were based upon.

Most Respectfully.
R

So what does all that have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

The answer explains the name. In fact, all of the territory that was not under Israeli self-determination was occupied by Aggressor Arab League Forces.

Most Respectfully,
R[/QUOTE]
That varies from my post. The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. I can't find one word different among the three.

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, P F Tinmore, Shusha, --- et al,

While this may sound correct to some, it certainly has flaws in the recitation.

It took territory in a war and occupied it. Now, it is not occupied but disputed and the Palestinians don't have the right to resist.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory. It is illegal to acquire land by war.

(COMMENT)

This idea --- that It is illegal to annex occupied territory or acquire land by force is an oversimplification of the The Kellogg-Briand Pact (1928) (AKA: Pact of Paris)(Article II: The High Contracting Parties agree that the settlement or solution of all disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them, shall never be sought except by pacific means.) and set the various pledges and frameworks to avoid the use of force and resolve disputes through peaceful means. Essentially, pacts, agreements, treaties and agreements serve to eliminate "War" as a legitimate instrument of Foreign Policy.

The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica] [/URL]Conquest, in international law, the acquisition of territory through force, especially by a victorious state in a war at the expense of a defeated state. An effective conquest takes place when physical appropriation of territory (annexation) is followed by “subjugation” (i.e., the legal process of transferring title).
Source: Encyclopædia Britannica

Article #43 --- Hague Regulation 1907: The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Article #47 --- Fourth Geneva Convention states that “Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory.”
​

Occupation Law (especially Articles #43, HR 1907 - and - #47, GCIV) were intended to stop athe 1948 Arab League Interventionist (in this case the 1948 Arab League Interventionist Forces from benefiting from their aggression) in the acquisition of territory. Remember that the term "war" is not an internationally defined descriptive condition. It is a foreign policy and political term setting gound conditions.

It really sounds like there are two different standards at play here: one for one group (resistance is legitimate) and another for another group (resistance is illegitimate).

(COMMENT)

Not really ---- two different standard; merely two different interpretations on the application of 21th century

Most Respectfully,
R

Occupation Law (especially Articles #43, HR 1907 - and - #47, GCIV) were intended to stop athe 1948 Arab League Interventionist (in this case the 1948 Arab League Interventionist Forces from benefiting from their aggression) in the acquisition of territory. Remember that the term "war" is not an internationally defined descriptive condition. It is a foreign policy and political term setting gound conditions.​

Indeed, Egypt did not attempt to annex its occupied territory. The world did not recognize Jordan's attempt to annex the West Bank. It remained occupied Palestinian territory. Since Israel took over that occupation in 1967, it is still occupied Palestinian territory. Gaza is still occupied Palestinian territory.

BTW, I have seen nothing in the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements that distinguish between the Palestinian territory occupied by Jordan, occupied by Egypt, or occupied by Israel. They are all identical.

When did it become Palestinian territory if they never took it up ? It was not until 1988 that the arab muslims declared a provisional Palestine nation.

WHAT PALESTINIAN TERRITORY WAS OCCUPIED IN 1949 BY Israel IF PALESTINE NEVER TOOK UP SOVEREIGNTY OF ANY LAND

Your criterion is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]






Only because it shows that yours has no basis in reality. The fact is the Palestinians had no legal right to the land ever, and when this is proven you deflect and derail rather than admit the truth

 

[Phoenall]

"P F Tinmore, et al,

You ask the question: "WHAT PALESTINIAN TERRITORY WAS OCCUPIED IN 1949 BY Israel IF PALESTINE NEVER TOOK UP SOVEREIGNTY OF ANY LAND"

So, to answer your question: The territory identified by the Order in Council.

The territorial identification and cartography designations has nothing at all to do with the effective control by the Forward Edge of the Battle Area on which much of the Armistice Arrangement were based upon.

Most Respectfully.
R

So what does all that have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

The answer explains the name. In fact, all of the territory that was not under Israeli self-determination was occupied by Aggressor Arab League Forces.

Most Respectfully,
R

That varies from my post. The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. I can't find one word different among the three.[/QUOTE]






AND where do the say nation of Palestine in them ? and who signed for this nation of Palestine ?

 

[Challenger]

Interesting Jewish view on Zionism,"Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity"

When I was a kid, Zionism – the political ideology responsible for the development and protection of a Jewish nation-state, currently known as Israel – made sense to me...Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity

The opinion piece makes two main points which are:

Zionism discourages Jews from participating in or identifying with broader global resistance movements and instead advocates for a focus on exclusive, insular protection at the expense of non-Jewish lives.

and

Since Israel – the geographical mecca for Jewish insularity – requires the oppression of another group of people to exist, it will never be a safe haven for anyone.


These are both ideas which fundamentally teach that the liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity is somehow DIFFERENT from other liberation movements and that this difference is harmful and should therefore be banned. The idea that one specific ethnic group -- the Jewish people -- is to be treated differently than all others is, of itself, an inherently anti-semitic idea.

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

 

[Challenger]

That seems ok - but, what happens when Jewish self-determination seeks to opress and prevent Palestinian self-determination on lands which have ancestral value to the Palestinian people?

But it doesn't. There is not and there never has been a widespread idea among the Jewish people that Palestine must not exist and that Palestinians have no rights to self-determination.

Clearly there are many posters on this forum on the "pro-Israel" side that disagree with the "Jewish people" then. Oh wait, that includes you! (post #179)

 

[Coyote]

That seems ok - but, what happens when Jewish self-determination seeks to opress and prevent Palestinian self-determination on lands which have ancestral value to the Palestinian people?

But it doesn't. There is not and there never has been a widespread idea among the Jewish people that Palestine must not exist and that Palestinians have no rights to self-determination.

Clearly there are many posters on this forum on the "pro-Israel" side that disagree with the "Jewish people" then. Oh wait, that includes you! (post #179)

Agree with the bolded part. But - I think you are misunderstanding Shusha's point in that post. She's consistently said the Palestinians have a right to self-determination and a state created through peaceful negotiations with Israel.

 

[Shusha]

That seems ok - but, what happens when Jewish self-determination seeks to opress and prevent Palestinian self-determination on lands which have ancestral value to the Palestinian people?

But it doesn't. There is not and there never has been a widespread idea among the Jewish people that Palestine must not exist and that Palestinians have no rights to self-determination.

Clearly there are many posters on this forum on the "pro-Israel" side that disagree with the "Jewish people" then. Oh wait, that includes you! (post #179)

In post #179, I said that it currently does not exist. Not that it has no right to exist.

 

[Shusha]

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

Fundamentally false notions:

that Israel, Judaism or the Jewish people don't care about non-Jews
that indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was (or is) necessary for Israel to exist
that there is, or is required, ethnic cleansing or military repression of Palestinians
that Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself

 

[Challenger]

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

Fundamentally false notions:

that Israel, Judaism or the Jewish people don't care about non-Jews
that indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was (or is) necessary for Israel to exist
that there is, or is required, ethnic cleansing or military repression of Palestinians
that Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself

Really? Then allow all those displaced Palestinians and their famillies who are prepared to live as "Israeli citizens" to return to their homes and restore their property where they can prove prior ownership or compensate them accordingly. Withdraw from the West Bank unconditionally, remove the settlements and release all political prisoners. Once that happens I'll concede that the above will be "fundamentaly false notions" until then:

• Zionist Israel doesn't care about Goyim
• Indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was and continues to be necessary for Zionist Israel to exist.
  
• That ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians is a requirement for the Zionist state to exist.
• Zionist Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself.

 

[Phoenall]

Interesting Jewish view on Zionism,"Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity"

When I was a kid, Zionism – the political ideology responsible for the development and protection of a Jewish nation-state, currently known as Israel – made sense to me...Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity

The opinion piece makes two main points which are:

Zionism discourages Jews from participating in or identifying with broader global resistance movements and instead advocates for a focus on exclusive, insular protection at the expense of non-Jewish lives.

and

Since Israel – the geographical mecca for Jewish insularity – requires the oppression of another group of people to exist, it will never be a safe haven for anyone.


These are both ideas which fundamentally teach that the liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity is somehow DIFFERENT from other liberation movements and that this difference is harmful and should therefore be banned. The idea that one specific ethnic group -- the Jewish people -- is to be treated differently than all others is, of itself, an inherently anti-semitic idea.

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

Care to when and where these crimes against humanity have taken place. I have done a search using Israels crimes against humanity and all I find is Nazi, islamonazi and white supremacist sites making the same racist claims. There are no records of the UN, ICC, ICJ or any other authority making these claims.


IS THIS YET ANOTHER OF YOUR LYING CLAIMS BECAUSE YOU ARE A RACIST ?

 

[Phoenall]

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

Fundamentally false notions:

that Israel, Judaism or the Jewish people don't care about non-Jews
that indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was (or is) necessary for Israel to exist
that there is, or is required, ethnic cleansing or military repression of Palestinians
that Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself

Really? Then allow all those displaced Palestinians and their famillies who are prepared to live as "Israeli citizens" to return to their homes and restore their property where they can prove prior ownership or compensate them accordingly. Withdraw from the West Bank unconditionally, remove the settlements and release all political prisoners. Once that happens I'll concede that the above will be "fundamentaly false notions" until then:

• Zionist Israel doesn't care about Goyim
• Indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was and continues to be necessary for Zionist Israel to exist.
  
• That ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians is a requirement for the Zionist state to exist.
• Zionist Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself.

That has been tried and the Palestinians refuse to agree to the UN terms, and they refuse to accept Israeli citizenship.
That means that none born outside of Israel will have a claim as they are unable to show ownership
Only after the Palestinians have unconditionally given up all states of belligerence, violence, terrorism and acts of war. Then paid compensation to the Jews for loss of their property. Then the temple mount be given over to the senior Abrahamic religion to administer.

Until that happens you are just stirring up racist hatred and violence.


LIAR

WRONG as there is no indiscriminate massacres or displacement of arab muslims

LIAR there is no ethnic cleansing by Israel, but plenty by the Palestinians as shown by the decrease in the Christian population since 2008

LIAR produce your evidence or be like the liq and be branded a bare faced LIAR

 

[Phoenall]

The opinion piece makes many, many, points. Not least of which is that Zionist propaganda and mythology has created a warped world view amongst modern Jewish people, “If they are not Jewish, they are of no concern to us.” is not found anywhere in Judaism as far as I recall.

"At no point during my religious education had anyone ever mentioned that the indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was necessary for Israel to exist! At no point did anyone mention that maintaining and expanding an exclusive Jewish state requires the ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians!"

...and when a so called "liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity" commits Crimes against Humanity in order to establish, but more importantly, to maintain itself it should be both resisted by the victims and condemned by the rest of Humanity.

Fundamentally false notions:

that Israel, Judaism or the Jewish people don't care about non-Jews
that indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was (or is) necessary for Israel to exist
that there is, or is required, ethnic cleansing or military repression of Palestinians
that Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself

Just rat boy and his neo Marxist talking points that have no basis in reality.

 

[Shusha]

Really? Then allow all those displaced Palestinians and their famillies who are prepared to live as "Israeli citizens" to return to their homes and restore their property where they can prove prior ownership or compensate them accordingly. Withdraw from the West Bank unconditionally, remove the settlements and release all political prisoners. Once that happens I'll concede that the above will be "fundamentaly false notions" until then:

• Zionist Israel doesn't care about Goyim
• Indiscriminate massacre and displacement of Palestinian people was and continues to be necessary for Zionist Israel to exist.
  
• That ongoing ethnic cleansing and military repression of Palestinians is a requirement for the Zionist state to exist.
• Zionist Israel commits crimes against humanity in order to maintain itself.

First, there is no on-going indiscriminate massacre, any on-going displacement of the Palestinian people, any on-going ethnic cleansing or any on-going military repression, or any on-going crimes against humanity. Falsehoods or exaggerations, all of them. (Well, not on the part of the Israelis, there certainly is the Palestinian side.

Second, I am the first one to agree to most of your points above. I AGREE that the Palestinians should be permitted to return to Palestine (not Israel). I AGREE that all those displaced should be compensated (including the nearly 1 million Jews). I AGREE that Israel must withdraw from the West Bank unconditionally (though in stages). I AGREE with the release of political prisoners (though not criminals). The only one I disagree with is the removal of the "settlements". THAT would be ethnic cleansing and a true crime against humanity, and especially so if only done unilaterally.

But BEFORE ANY of this can happen -- there needs to be an agreement of peace and mutual recognition. Unconditionally. By the Palestinians and the other Arab nations. There needs to be an end-of-conflict agreement. There needs to be an end to all acts of war, all belligerence, all terrorism both in promise and in practice. For an EXTENDED period of time.

And there needs to be a treaty determining which territory belongs to which nation.

 

[Shusha]

The solutions to the problems are not difficult. And we've known what those solutions are for nearly a hundred years. So ya gotta keep asking yourself, why? Why is there no peace? Why is there no treaty?

And the one side says, duh, because Zionists are evil.

And the other sides responds, no, actually, its the ideology that Zionists are evil that is the root of the problem.


But this does demonstrate quite nicely my point on this thread.

 

[Coyote]

The solutions to the problems are not difficult. And we've known what those solutions are for nearly a hundred years. So ya gotta keep asking yourself, why? Why is there no peace? Why is there no treaty?

And the one side says, duh, because Zionists are evil.

And the other sides responds, no, actually, its the ideology that Zionists are evil that is the root of the problem.


But this does demonstrate quite nicely my point on this thread.

And one side says the Palestinians are evil.

So much seperation means people that used to work together, and live together don't - many Palestinians don't know a Jew, many Jews don't know a Palestinian either. Each side has hard core ideologues that are uncompromising.

 

[Shusha]

And one side says the Palestinians are evil.

Bullshit.

NO ONE here is arguing that Palestinians as a CONCEPT is evil.

 

[Coyote]

And one side says the Palestinians are evil.

Bullshit.

NO ONE here is arguing that Palestinians as a CONCEPT is evil.

They argue that Islam, as a concept is evil.