The decline of Christian America

[hobelim]

Oh, so you are a Christian? :0 Then you and I probably have a lot of common ground and beliefs ---- even if they are not manifest in our exchanges.

Isn't it bit narrow minded to assume that to have a belief in God one must be a Christian? But no, I do not consider myself a Christian even though we do have a lot of common ground and beliefs. The difference being, and it is no small difference, is the way in which those beliefs are understood and applied.

For instance we both believe that to receive eternal life one must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus. You were taught to believe that in order to receive that life one must celebrate mass by eating the consecrated host and drinking wine.. I am telling you that to eat the flesh of Jesus and to drink his blood one must receive his teaching that he received from God like manna from heaven about the figurative nature and hidden subjects of the divine commands, and conform to the will of God revealed in that light, to receive the eternal life promised for obedience to the law. Your belief is that eternal life can be handed out and eaten like some cheap snack food. I am telling you that eternal life has literally nothing whatsoever to do with eating and drinking bread and wine. You think that because I reject eucharistic worship as an abomination that causes desolation that I am going to hell in a bucket, I see that because you reject the divine commands and practice eucharistic worship that you are already in hell. In fact, if scripture is true, you died and descended into the netherworld in the very day that you first got down on your knees in deranged adoration before a lifeless material object made by human hands.... even if it was decades ago..

Can you verify that? You accept the words of the Bible as the teachings from above? (some misleading interpretations along the peripherals when translated into other languages notwithstanding)

The Bible was written using words that can have many meanings effectively concealing subjects that are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used...

So yes, but it is in the way in which those words and stories are interpreted that either reveals teaching and wisdom from above or perpetuates confusion and the folly of men.



"He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:24

"The kingdom of Heaven is like treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it, buried it again." Matthew 13:44

 

[turzovka]

I would say you are half right and half wrong.

Yes, I blame the Christians, too, me included.

No, it is not because they have preached a message of hate and intolerance ---- even if a very small percentage of them have. That is a very naïve or demagogic response, imo.

The "Christians" are to blame because those who claim to be Christian are a decided majority in this nation. And it appears to me the majority have engaged in an inordinate amount of self-love, materialism, carnal desires, laziness in following the tenets of the faith even if they attend services,

Here is the end result ( I fear, I do not know of course) --- Those who claim to be Christians and act like secular materialistic lustful humanists may receive the harshest sentences. But those who stand in judgment calling us all hypocrites and consequently decide there is no good in our faith, I cannot think of one good reason why you should feel comfortable about your own destiny as well.

If you are Catholic, you are not a Christian, Turzovka. Your religion was founded on the Babylonian religion of Semiramis, Tammuz and Nimrod. The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this).

Now your religion is once again seeking world domination through the formation of a one world religion led by a Jesuit Pope. Jesus Christ is LORD. Not your Pope. Make your plans but know that God has already made His and it is found in the last book of the Bible. It's called the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Believe the King James Bible - not the false religious leaders you've been deceived by.

Don't become angry with me. But I question your ability to reason. You know how those poor people become beholden to cult leaders and then we read about tragedies in the news? You strike me as someone who is incapable of understanding truth from fiction, right from wrong. I hope I am wrong but your vitriol tells me otherwise.

lets get down to brass tacks-----to just what "vitriol" do you refer?

Oh, really? Historically, if not incessantly, Jeremiah has uttered some very vile things about and against the Catholic Church. Now you want me to do a search to confirm that?

Even in this thread the lady is off the rails. >> "The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this)." <<

Why should I bother trying to reason with that?

Because it is the factual history of your Catholic religion! Have you no shame at all?! You are speaking to a Jew! The very ones your Doctrine of Lea refer to as "pestilence"! That Doctrine is still on the books to this day! WAKE UP!

What’s your point? The Catholic Church is made up of sinners? Such an astute discovery of yours. What is your “church” made up of, “saints” (replete with the Sin of Presumption where you can sin all you want with impunity all because you once uttered a statement that you accept Jesus as your Savior and are now assured of immediate entrance into the kingdom the moment you die)? You also ignore the vile treatment of Jews in various sects of Protestantism over the centuries. Of course you know Martin Luther was a vile persecutor of Jews?

As soon as the Jews rejected his overtures and didn't start converting en masse, Luther, who took this rejection personally, turned into one of the most virulent anti-Semites in history. A few years later, he wrote in his Concerning The Jews And Their Lies:

"What shall we do with this damned rejected race of Jews since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing. We cannot tolerate them even if we do not wish to share their lives, curses and blasphemy. Perhaps we can spare a few of them from the fire and flames. Let me give you my honest advice..."(4)

Luther's "honest advice" outlined a plan for dealing with the Jews. It included:
1.burn all synagogues
2.destroy Jewish holy books
3.forbid rabbis to teach
4.destroy Jewish homes
5.ban Jews from roads and markets
6.forbid Jews to make loans
7.seize Jewish property
8.force Jews to do hard labor
9.expel Jews from Christian towns

Four hundred years later, Hitler and the Nazis, using Luther's anti-Jewish writings in their anti-Jewish propaganda, would put that plan into action.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954141.html


It is no small measure that our popes issued apologies and the councils corrected their errors, most recently Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church also recognizes salvation can attained by all men including non-Christians, pagans, atheists, et al.


The Catechism on The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled."

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


To sum: The Catholic Church and its teachings are immeasurably more charitable to those of other faiths or no faith and provides for the mercy of God to welcome many of them into the kingdom as well. You, on the other hand, are the accuser of the brethren and the denier of God’s providence because you cherry pick your Bible verses to support your narrow minded, bigoted theology, all the while not wanting to consider that much of Scripture is showing you to be a deceiver of the truth.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Oh, so you are a Christian? :0 Then you and I probably have a lot of common ground and beliefs ---- even if they are not manifest in our exchanges.

Isn't it bit narrow minded to assume that to have a belief in God one must be a Christian? But no, I do not consider myself a Christian even though we do have a lot of common ground and beliefs. The difference, and it is no small difference, is the way in which those beliefs are understood and applied.

For instance we both believe that to receive eternal life one must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus. You believe that in order to receive that life one must celebrate mass by eating the consecrated host and drinking wine.. My belief is that to eat the flesh of Jesus and to drink his blood one must receive his teaching that he received from God like manna from heaven about the figurative nature and hidden subjects of the divine commands, and conform to the will of God revealed in that light to receive the life promised for obedience. Your belief is that eternal life can be handed out and eaten like some cheap snack food. My belief is that eternal life has nothing whatsoever to do with eating and drinking bread and wine.

Can you verify that? You accept the words of the Bible as the teachings from above? (some misleading interpretations along the peripherals when translated into other languages notwithstanding)

The Bible was written using words that can have many meanings effectively concealing subjects that are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used...

So yes, but it is in the way those words and stories are interpreted that either reveals teaching and wisdom from above or perpetuates confusion and the folly of men.



"He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:24

"The kingdom of Heaven is like treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it, buried it again." Matthew 13:44

Do you not understand the Doctrines of Catholicism, Hobelim? How narrow minded do you believe it is to teach your own people you have the right to murder heretics - anyone who rejects Catholicism isn't worthy of living and God is alright with us putting them to death. How do you think they train their Jesuits to kill and justify it? Same Doctrine of Lea they always used. The very vow the Jesuits take calls for them to do whatever it takes. How narrow minded do you think it is for the Vatican to send in Jesuit agents such as Billy Graham to deceive the people of America in order to destroy the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and teach a false doctrine - with few being the wiser? By no means is Billy Graham the only one. There are so many on the Vatican's payroll, so many agents of Rome using deception, lies, blackmail, whatever they can to destroy Protestant churches that we will not know the full story until the Judgment seat of God. No one involved in such deception should expect anything other than hell.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You are quoting propaganda that was given to the Jesuits to destroy the name of Protestants and Martin Luther. For those interested in the truth about the Roman Catholic Institution look up Dr. Alberto Rivera - Ex-Jesuit Testimony by Jack Chick Publications. Also Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. There is also another book called The Babylonian Religion - exposing Catholicism and goddess worship - I cannot recall the authors name off hand. It is time for the world to know the truth about Catholicism. Past time!

As for the truth:

Here is the truth. Real Christians will never submit themselves to the anti-christ Pope of Rome and his Babylonian religion. We will do what the early Christians chose to do rather than to become Catholic Pagans. We will die for our faith in Jesus Christ. That is what we will do.

 

[turzovka]

You are quoting propaganda that was given to the Jesuits to destroy the name of Protestants and Martin Luther. For those interested in the truth about the Roman Catholic Institution look up Dr. Alberto Rivera - Ex-Jesuit Testimony by Jack Chick Publications. Also Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. There is also another book called The Babylonian Religion - exposing Catholicism and goddess worship - I cannot recall the authors name off hand. It is time for the world to know the truth about Catholicism. Past time!

As for the truth:

Here is the truth. Real Christians will never submit themselves to the anti-christ Pope of Rome and his Babylonian religion. We will do what the early Christians chose to do rather than to become Catholic Pagans. We will die for our faith in Jesus Christ. That is what we will do.

I am quoting a Jewish source, not a Jesuit one. I can find countless documents on many Protestant sects and how they view the Jewish people in a most vilifying way, both in history and now. It is no more admirable than some Catholic teachings of history past. You are so filled with folly you do not seem capable of admitting the truth. At least the popes and the Catholic Church have admitted their sins and errors and asked for forgiveness. Again, that does not matter to you because your condemnations of the Catholic Church is too much a part of your world. Half the delight you enjoy is looking upon sinners in their misery and crowing like a rooster how much wiser are you. I have nothing but pity for you.[/

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Turzovka, you need Christ and you need to depart from the people who are using you to promote this anti-Christ Pope. (it isn't worth your spending eternity in hell) I'll keep you in my prayers. I have nothing further to say to you because you do not have a teachable spirit. There is no point in continuing here. This thread has run its course.

 

[turzovka]

Turzovka, you need Christ and you need to depart from the people who are using you to promote this anti-Christ Pope. (it isn't worth your spending eternity in hell) I'll keep you in my prayers. I have nothing further to say to you because you do not have a teachable spirit. There is no point in continuing here. This thread has run its course.

I will try to be charitable to you on most occasions, but Ecclesiasties does say there are times for adversity.

So fine, be done with me. But I will say that you are either brainwashed or medically disturbed. Either that or just a real coward. Whenever in the past I present to you Scripture that shakes your narrow-minded dogmas, you run away.

Go ahead and run. I will keep you in my prayers too.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

This is the true story of Martin Luther and the Awful truth about the Roman Catholic Babylonian religion. Please begin reading at post number 1368 and share with your family, your friends, co-workers and all the Catholics you know. They deserve to know the truth!

May the LORD bless all those who defend the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and share the Gospel with a lost and dying world.

Begin at post #1368

Jack Chick Tracts - Read here Page 6 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Lilah]

This is the true story of Martin Luther and the Awful truth about the Roman Catholic Babylonian religion. Please begin reading at post number 1368 and share with your family, your friends, co-workers and all the Catholics you know. They deserve to know the truth!

May the LORD bless all those who defend the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and share the Gospel with a lost and dying world.

Begin at post #1368

Jack Chick Tracts - Read here Page 6 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Why don't you try spreading love and compassion instead of always looking for the negative and condemning people for what they choose to believe.
Jesus said:
Matthew 11:28-30
28 “Come to me,all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
He didn't say, come sit by me and we'll gossip about people and debase those who we deem unworthy.
Did Jesus ask the man on the cross next to him, "Were you baptized this morning? What religion are you?

 

[irosie91]

If you are Catholic, you are not a Christian, Turzovka. Your religion was founded on the Babylonian religion of Semiramis, Tammuz and Nimrod. The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this).

Now your religion is once again seeking world domination through the formation of a one world religion led by a Jesuit Pope. Jesus Christ is LORD. Not your Pope. Make your plans but know that God has already made His and it is found in the last book of the Bible. It's called the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Believe the King James Bible - not the false religious leaders you've been deceived by.

Don't become angry with me. But I question your ability to reason. You know how those poor people become beholden to cult leaders and then we read about tragedies in the news? You strike me as someone who is incapable of understanding truth from fiction, right from wrong. I hope I am wrong but your vitriol tells me otherwise.

lets get down to brass tacks-----to just what "vitriol" do you refer?

Oh, really? Historically, if not incessantly, Jeremiah has uttered some very vile things about and against the Catholic Church. Now you want me to do a search to confirm that?

Even in this thread the lady is off the rails. >> "The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this)." <<

Why should I bother trying to reason with that?

Because it is the factual history of your Catholic religion! Have you no shame at all?! You are speaking to a Jew! The very ones your Doctrine of Lea refer to as "pestilence"! That Doctrine is still on the books to this day! WAKE UP!

What’s your point? The Catholic Church is made up of sinners? Such an astute discovery of yours. What is your “church” made up of, “saints” (replete with the Sin of Presumption where you can sin all you want with impunity all because you once uttered a statement that you accept Jesus as your Savior and are now assured of immediate entrance into the kingdom the moment you die)? You also ignore the vile treatment of Jews in various sects of Protestantism over the centuries. Of course you know Martin Luther was a vile persecutor of Jews?

As soon as the Jews rejected his overtures and didn't start converting en masse, Luther, who took this rejection personally, turned into one of the most virulent anti-Semites in history. A few years later, he wrote in his Concerning The Jews And Their Lies:

"What shall we do with this damned rejected race of Jews since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing. We cannot tolerate them even if we do not wish to share their lives, curses and blasphemy. Perhaps we can spare a few of them from the fire and flames. Let me give you my honest advice..."(4)

Luther's "honest advice" outlined a plan for dealing with the Jews. It included:
1.burn all synagogues
2.destroy Jewish holy books
3.forbid rabbis to teach
4.destroy Jewish homes
5.ban Jews from roads and markets
6.forbid Jews to make loans
7.seize Jewish property
8.force Jews to do hard labor
9.expel Jews from Christian towns

Four hundred years later, Hitler and the Nazis, using Luther's anti-Jewish writings in their anti-Jewish propaganda, would put that plan into action.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954141.html


It is no small measure that our popes issued apologies and the councils corrected their errors, most recently Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church also recognizes salvation can attained by all men including non-Christians, pagans, atheists, et al.


The Catechism on The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled."

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


To sum: The Catholic Church and its teachings are immeasurably more charitable to those of other faiths or no faith and provides for the mercy of God to welcome many of them into the kingdom as well. You, on the other hand, are the accuser of the brethren and the denier of God’s providence because you cherry pick your Bible verses to support your narrow minded, bigoted theology, all the while not wanting to consider that much of Scripture is showing you to be a deceiver of the truth.

''


calm down ---- OLIVER CROMWELL ---you cannot blame Jeremiah for Martin Luther---or the Lutheran church----or ----adolf.

btw----Oliver Cromwell was one of the biggest bastards of history-----the British
"royalty" should apologize to the pope
(lol----not that I really give a damn)

 

[turzovka]

Don't become angry with me. But I question your ability to reason. You know how those poor people become beholden to cult leaders and then we read about tragedies in the news? You strike me as someone who is incapable of understanding truth from fiction, right from wrong. I hope I am wrong but your vitriol tells me otherwise.

lets get down to brass tacks-----to just what "vitriol" do you refer?

Oh, really? Historically, if not incessantly, Jeremiah has uttered some very vile things about and against the Catholic Church. Now you want me to do a search to confirm that?

Even in this thread the lady is off the rails. >> "The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this)." <<

Why should I bother trying to reason with that?

Because it is the factual history of your Catholic religion! Have you no shame at all?! You are speaking to a Jew! The very ones your Doctrine of Lea refer to as "pestilence"! That Doctrine is still on the books to this day! WAKE UP!

What’s your point? The Catholic Church is made up of sinners? Such an astute discovery of yours. What is your “church” made up of, “saints” (replete with the Sin of Presumption where you can sin all you want with impunity all because you once uttered a statement that you accept Jesus as your Savior and are now assured of immediate entrance into the kingdom the moment you die)? You also ignore the vile treatment of Jews in various sects of Protestantism over the centuries. Of course you know Martin Luther was a vile persecutor of Jews?

As soon as the Jews rejected his overtures and didn't start converting en masse, Luther, who took this rejection personally, turned into one of the most virulent anti-Semites in history. A few years later, he wrote in his Concerning The Jews And Their Lies:

"What shall we do with this damned rejected race of Jews since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing. We cannot tolerate them even if we do not wish to share their lives, curses and blasphemy. Perhaps we can spare a few of them from the fire and flames. Let me give you my honest advice..."(4)

Luther's "honest advice" outlined a plan for dealing with the Jews. It included:
1.burn all synagogues
2.destroy Jewish holy books
3.forbid rabbis to teach
4.destroy Jewish homes
5.ban Jews from roads and markets
6.forbid Jews to make loans
7.seize Jewish property
8.force Jews to do hard labor
9.expel Jews from Christian towns

Four hundred years later, Hitler and the Nazis, using Luther's anti-Jewish writings in their anti-Jewish propaganda, would put that plan into action.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954141.html


It is no small measure that our popes issued apologies and the councils corrected their errors, most recently Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church also recognizes salvation can attained by all men including non-Christians, pagans, atheists, et al.


The Catechism on The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled."

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


To sum: The Catholic Church and its teachings are immeasurably more charitable to those of other faiths or no faith and provides for the mercy of God to welcome many of them into the kingdom as well. You, on the other hand, are the accuser of the brethren and the denier of God’s providence because you cherry pick your Bible verses to support your narrow minded, bigoted theology, all the while not wanting to consider that much of Scripture is showing you to be a deceiver of the truth.

''


calm down ---- OLIVER CROMWELL ---you cannot blame Jeremiah for Martin Luther---or the Lutheran church----or ----adolf.

btw----Oliver Cromwell was one of the biggest bastards of history-----the British
"royalty" should apologize to the pope
(lol----not that I really give a damn)

I'm calm again. Now you can relax knowing that. : )

It's much more simple than that. Jeremiah is a mega poster who has posted hundreds of defamations upon the Catholic Church and many directed my way. (e.g. these 1,000 posts to his or her Jack Chick tracks thread is a perfect example of his radical disdain) He or she has also sounded off with little compassion and a great deal of bile towards those who do not believe as he/she does. So as it were, I took this opportunity (for a change) to throw it all back in his face. End of story.

I do appreciate you referencing Cromwell. Now there was a special creation.

 

[irosie91]

lets get down to brass tacks-----to just what "vitriol" do you refer?

Oh, really? Historically, if not incessantly, Jeremiah has uttered some very vile things about and against the Catholic Church. Now you want me to do a search to confirm that?

Even in this thread the lady is off the rails. >> "The history of your religion is that of hunting down and putting to death the Christians and Jews and non - Catholics who refused to submit to your popes. Over a period of 605 years your religion put approximately 68 million Protestants (Christians), Jews, and non Catholics to death for refusing to submit to the false teachings of the Romanists (under the direction of a succession of 80 popes who created more torturous methods to persuade the "heretics" - history reveals this)." <<

Why should I bother trying to reason with that?

Because it is the factual history of your Catholic religion! Have you no shame at all?! You are speaking to a Jew! The very ones your Doctrine of Lea refer to as "pestilence"! That Doctrine is still on the books to this day! WAKE UP!

What’s your point? The Catholic Church is made up of sinners? Such an astute discovery of yours. What is your “church” made up of, “saints” (replete with the Sin of Presumption where you can sin all you want with impunity all because you once uttered a statement that you accept Jesus as your Savior and are now assured of immediate entrance into the kingdom the moment you die)? You also ignore the vile treatment of Jews in various sects of Protestantism over the centuries. Of course you know Martin Luther was a vile persecutor of Jews?

As soon as the Jews rejected his overtures and didn't start converting en masse, Luther, who took this rejection personally, turned into one of the most virulent anti-Semites in history. A few years later, he wrote in his Concerning The Jews And Their Lies:

"What shall we do with this damned rejected race of Jews since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing. We cannot tolerate them even if we do not wish to share their lives, curses and blasphemy. Perhaps we can spare a few of them from the fire and flames. Let me give you my honest advice..."(4)

Luther's "honest advice" outlined a plan for dealing with the Jews. It included:
1.burn all synagogues
2.destroy Jewish holy books
3.forbid rabbis to teach
4.destroy Jewish homes
5.ban Jews from roads and markets
6.forbid Jews to make loans
7.seize Jewish property
8.force Jews to do hard labor
9.expel Jews from Christian towns

Four hundred years later, Hitler and the Nazis, using Luther's anti-Jewish writings in their anti-Jewish propaganda, would put that plan into action.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954141.html


It is no small measure that our popes issued apologies and the councils corrected their errors, most recently Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church also recognizes salvation can attained by all men including non-Christians, pagans, atheists, et al.


The Catechism on The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled."

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


To sum: The Catholic Church and its teachings are immeasurably more charitable to those of other faiths or no faith and provides for the mercy of God to welcome many of them into the kingdom as well. You, on the other hand, are the accuser of the brethren and the denier of God’s providence because you cherry pick your Bible verses to support your narrow minded, bigoted theology, all the while not wanting to consider that much of Scripture is showing you to be a deceiver of the truth.

''


calm down ---- OLIVER CROMWELL ---you cannot blame Jeremiah for Martin Luther---or the Lutheran church----or ----adolf.

btw----Oliver Cromwell was one of the biggest bastards of history-----the British
"royalty" should apologize to the pope
(lol----not that I really give a damn)

I'm calm again. Now you can relax knowing that. : )

It's much more simple than that. Jeremiah is a mega poster who has posted hundreds of defamations upon the Catholic Church and many directed my way. (e.g. these 1,000 posts to his or her Jack Chick tracks thread is a perfect example of his radical disdain) He or she has also sounded off with little compassion and a great deal of bile towards those who do not believe as he/she does. So as it were, I took this opportunity (for a change) to throw it all back in his face. End of story.

I do appreciate you referencing Cromwell. Now there was a special creation.

try to curb your enthusiasm. AND....now for the disclaimer. I am dammned annoyed at islamo Nazi pig FRANCIS for licking the shit of ISLAMO NAZI BAATHIST PIG ABU MAZEN-----that animal is a murderer. I will never get over the fact that the catholic church
created a SAINT---out of islamo Nazi pig PIUS. and have even considered canonizing the disgusting cock sucking whore----ISABELLA-------I do blame the catholic church for the lax approach to the investigation of the murder spree at a synagogue in Buenos Aires and the murder of prosecutor thereof. Why do I blame the catholic church? ------I, truly believe, that of all places in the world in which the POPE has control------the two major places are POLAND AND SOUTH AMERICA. Poland was the major jew killer during world war II without comment from the pope that every polish grandma worships and SOUTH AMERICA licks the shit of Islamism -------whilst IL PAPA giggles. South America was also HAPPY willing host to Nazi war criminals------to the delight of "il papa". If you go to Rome----find out why "il papa" does not mind that his most naïve worshippers----the Mexicans ----are tolerating mujahad scum

 

[turzovka]

try to curb your enthusiasm. AND....now for the disclaimer. I am dammned annoyed at islamo Nazi pig FRANCIS for licking the shit of ISLAMO NAZI BAATHIST PIG ABU MAZEN-----that animal is a murderer. I will never get over the fact that the catholic church
created a SAINT---out of islamo Nazi pig PIUS. and have even considered canonizing the disgusting cock sucking whore----ISABELLA-------I do blame the catholic church for the lax approach to the investigation of the murder spree at a synagogue in Buenos Aires and the murder of prosecutor thereof. Why do I blame the catholic church? ------I, truly believe, that of all places in the world in which the POPE has control------the two major places are POLAND AND SOUTH AMERICA. Poland was the major jew killer during world war II without comment from the pope that every polish grandma worships and SOUTH AMERICA licks the shit of Islamism -------whilst IL PAPA giggles. South America was also HAPPY willing host to Nazi war criminals------to the delight of "il papa". If you go to Rome----find out why "il papa" does not mind that his most naïve worshippers----the Mexicans ----are tolerating mujahad scum

Was it not you twice asking me to curtail my exuberance? :O Are you a female?

First off, I do not agree with you and the secular world that Pius XII was such a Nazi enabler or however else you want to describe. There have a been a number of books, etc., even by Jewish authors that defended him far more than condemned him. People just do not want to hear that, they want to villify. Not to mention how enormously precarious of a state the Vatican was in between Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. It would not surprise me if the Vatican was forced to become more passive in publicly rebuking Hitler’s evils towards Jews, etc. in exchange for not being completely destroyed themselves or having Rome bombed. So easy to criticize and so easy to ignore all the good the Catholic Church did do to help where they could. Plus you expected them to stop Germany from doing as they please in Poland?!!

Now you expect the pope in this incredibly complex and dangerous world of ours to take a major role in trying to destroy Islam’s influence in South America? And probably take out the Sicilian and Nepalese mafias? And tear into Arab affairs making the horrible situation in the Middle East for Christians all the worse? Again, the pope is the vicar of Christ and cannot be a giant promoter of warfare or singling out national leaders as villains. I am not going spend time trying to explain further. But as for Abbas, I had enormous suspicions the moment I saw the AP’s headlines “Francis calls Abbas an angel of peace.”

If you read the link below (from the jewishpress) it comes out after the fact that was not the case. The difference is slight yet not slight in the least. It is profound. And at the end of the article it speaks of Rome’s relationship with Judaism, which I find important and mostly positive.

Look, no one can defend the sins of the Catholic Church, but neither will any other church or religion ever have the humility to admit to their own. The fact is, the clergy sexual abuse and the coverup has caused irreparable damage and the Church will become crippled for life over this. Deservedly so, although I do not maintain it was a papal coverup (more of a weakness) nor do I maintain it affected the vast majority of priests or most bishops. But the devil did win a gigantic victory with that one.

And the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches all treated the Jews over the centuries in horrific and sinful ways. Cannot deny that either, but neither can we come along in the 21st century and act like it was so obvious they should have known better. The whole world was barbaric and self-induced back then on many levels. At least the Church has apologized on a number of occasions.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/j-e-dyer/main-stream-media-failure-pope-did-not-call-mahmoud-abbas-an-angel-of-peace/2015/05/17/
Main Stream Media Failure: Pope did NOT call Mahmoud Abbas an ‘Angel of Peace
*UPDATE*, with double-down

By: J. E. Dyer

Published: May 17th, 2015

{originally posted to the author’s website, Liberty Unyielding}

Fueled by wire stories from AP and AFP, the mainstream media have been running with a headline that Pope Francis, during a meeting at the Vatican on Saturday 16 May, called Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas “an angel of peace.”

[Editor’s note: Unlike the news wires, JewishPress.com accurately reported the translation of the Pope’s statement to Abbas (as well as the Pope’s decision to recognize a “Palestinian” state).]

The problem: the pope did not call Abbas — aka the terrorist Abu Mazen — an “angel of peace.”

He did utter the words “angel of peace,” and he suggested that Abbas could or might be one. In the context of the pope’s complete statement about the meeting, the implication was that Abbas could be an angel of peace if he resumed direct negotiations with Israel.

Why did Francis say the words “angel of peace” at all? Because he was making a gift to Abbas of a medallion engraved with an image of the Angel of Peace. The Vatican Insider feature of Italy’s La Stampa has this summary in its English version:

As is tradition with heads of State or of government, Francis presented presented a gift to the Palestinian leader, commenting: “May the angel of peace destroy the evil spirit of war. I thought of you: may you be an angel of peace.” Pope Francis had called Abu Mazen a “man of peace” when he visited Bethlehem in May 2014, just as he called the then Israeli Prime Minister, Shimon Peres, a “man of peace” during his subsequent visit to Jerusalem.

For those who are interested in comparing the original Italian report at La Stampa, it’s here. The same passage has more information about the gift of the medallion.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio ha regalato al leader palestinese, come è sua consuetudine con i Capi di Stato e di Governo, un medaglione con la figura dell’Angelo della Pace, commentando: «L’angelo della pace distrugge lo spirito cattivo della guerra. Ho pensato a lei: che lei possa essere un angelo della pace». Papa Francesco aveva definito Abu Mazen «uomo di pace» durante la visita a Betlemme nel maggio del 2014, così come aveva definito l’allora presidente israeliano Shimon Peres «uomo di pace» nella successiva tappa a Gerusalemme.

A more direct, exact translation is as follows:

Jorge Mario Bergoglio [i.e., the pope, but using his given name as the head of state of the Vatican] gave the Palestinian leader, as is his custom with heads of state and government, a medallion with the image of the Angel of Peace, commenting: “The angel of peace destroys the evil spirit of war. I thought of you*: that you might be an angel of peace.” Pope Francis had called Abu Mazen a “man of peace” during the visit to Bethlehem in May 2014, just as he called former Israeli President Shimon Peres a “man of peace” at his next stop in Jerusalem.

To summarize, then: Pope Francis had previously commended both Abbas and Peres as “men of peace,” presumably intending papal encouragement for the pursuit of peace. At the meeting with Abbas on Saturday, the pope gave Abbas a medallion with the image of the Angel of Peace, and commented that Abbas might be, or would have the chance to be, an angel of peace. He did not say that Abbas is an angel of peace.

In the latter regard, it’s worth noting further that the pope’s wish for Abbas is expressed in the subjunctive mode: “che lei possa essere un angelo della pace.” The level of dubiousness or “unfulfilledness” conveyed by the subjunctive mode in romance languages is something English no longer has a strong equivalent for. A more exact translation of the idea in English would be something like “may it be that you become an angel of peace,” or “let it be that you become an angel of peace.”

What the use of the subjunctive makes clear is that the pope was not saying Abbas already is an angel of peace. Notably, Francis went on in his additional remarks to hope that direct talks would resume between the parties:

Next, the peace process with Israel was discussed and the hope was expressed that direct negotiations between the Parties would resume in order to find a just and lasting solution to the conflict. For this purpose, the wish for Israelis and Palestinians to take determined and courageous decisions in aid of peace, with the support of the international community, was once against reiterated.

Read the whole La Stampa summary for yourself; it’s clear that the pope’s official comments were phrased carefully, avoiding premature applause for anyone’s incarnation as an “angel,” and endorsing mutual, direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs as the way ahead.

The MSM, of course, heard what they wanted to hear, and wrote biased headlines accordingly.

** UPDATE **: An acquaintance sent me the link to a Spanish-language Zenitarticle on the Abbas visit, whose wording mirrors the sense of the Italian story. The Zenit piece contains an additional piece of information as well: Pope Francis reportedly gave Abbas a copy of his 2013 encyclical Evangelii Gaudium. One of the things that encyclical was most especially noted for was its positive, affirming statement on the relation of the Church with Judaism and the Jewish people. Here is the relevant passage:

Relations with Judaism 247. We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.

248. Dialogue and friendship with the children of Israel are part of the life of Jesus’ disciples. The friendship which has grown between us makes us bitterly and sincerely regret the terrible persecutions which they have endured, and continue to endure, especially those that have involved Christians.

249. God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with his word. For this reason, the Church also is enriched when she receives the values of Judaism. While it is true that certain Christian beliefs are unacceptable to Judaism, and that the Church cannot refrain from proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Messiah, there exists as well a rich complementary which allows us to read the texts of the Hebrew Scriptures together and to help one another to mine the riches of God’s word. We can also share many ethical convictions and a common concern for justice and the development of peoples.

(Of particular note, from a Christian standpoint, is that the section on Judaism is set apart from the section on “interreligious dialogue.” It is in that latter section that Pope Francis addresses the Church’s relations with Islam. This is not a rebuke to Islam or Muslims, but it clarifies that the Catholic Church recognizes a religious and spiritual connection with Judaism that it does not recognize with other religions, including Islam. It also clarifies the Church’s position that the Jewish covenant with God has never been revoked.)

We can assume that Francis did not select a text at random to give to Abbas at their meeting. On the topic at hand, meanwhile, my friend puts it this way: “There’s a sense in which the Pope did the exact opposite of what the NYT and AFP reported: he urged Abbas to change his way.”

In light of all the facts from the Italian and Spanish reports, that case can indeed be made.

* Italian cognoscenti will recognize that, technically, “lei,” without capitalization, is the pronoun “her” or “she.” The formal “you” is written “Lei,” with a capital L. However, since La Stampa translated the passage to reflect the pope addressing Abbas in the second person and calling him “you,” we can assume this was a case of grammatical sloppiness in the Italian original. “You” also makes more sense in the overall context of the event and the pope’s remarks.

 

[irosie91]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

 

[turzovka]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

You overspin even if you make some legitimate points. No doubt all other religions and regimes were far more courageous and outspoken.

But you do believe in G-d of course. So you have the answers to the larger questions then. So then no need to worry on that score?

 

[irosie91]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

You overspin even if you make some legitimate points. No doubt all other religions and regimes were far more courageous and outspoken.

But you do believe in G-d of course. So you have the answers to the larger questions then. So then no need to worry on that score?

No----they were not.........BUT the pope---is supposed to be the MORAL GUIDE of millions of people------and based on his renunciation
(as a priest) of materialism and his own creature comforts-----it is my firm conviction that pius FAILED. He failed because he considered the transitory welfare of "THE CHURCH" over the lives of millions of non-
catholics. Adolf could have taken revenge on the church had Pius acted more decisively------but he could not destroy it------
nor could he destroy the catholic people----it was just about all he had. Pius had lots of power to save people but he failed to use it ---
he used it only a tiny bit. ----virtually ----symbolically. IMO---he was a moral failure. Maybe he was just timid

 

[turzovka]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

You overspin even if you make some legitimate points. No doubt all other religions and regimes were far more courageous and outspoken.

But you do believe in G-d of course. So you have the answers to the larger questions then. So then no need to worry on that score?

No----they were not.........BUT the pope---is supposed to be the MORAL GUIDE of millions of people------and based on his renunciation
(as a priest) of materialism and his own creature comforts-----it is my firm conviction that pius FAILED. He failed because he considered the transitory welfare of "THE CHURCH" over the lives of millions of non-
catholics. Adolf could have taken revenge on the church had Pius acted more decisively------but he could not destroy it------
nor could he destroy the catholic people----it was just about all he had. Pius had lots of power to save people but he failed to use it ---
he used it only a tiny bit. ----virtually ----symbolically. IMO---he was a moral failure. Maybe he was just timid

Yes and Adolph would have bombed the Vatican and Rome once Italy declared war on Germany in 1944, if not sooner. You make this sound so easy for a pope surrounded by devils to publicly defy them. I really doubt it would have saved millions of lives since Rome was powerless against Germany. Nothing stopped Hitler's evil designs.

 

[irosie91]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

You overspin even if you make some legitimate points. No doubt all other religions and regimes were far more courageous and outspoken.

But you do believe in G-d of course. So you have the answers to the larger questions then. So then no need to worry on that score?

No----they were not.........BUT the pope---is supposed to be the MORAL GUIDE of millions of people------and based on his renunciation
(as a priest) of materialism and his own creature comforts-----it is my firm conviction that pius FAILED. He failed because he considered the transitory welfare of "THE CHURCH" over the lives of millions of non-
catholics. Adolf could have taken revenge on the church had Pius acted more decisively------but he could not destroy it------
nor could he destroy the catholic people----it was just about all he had. Pius had lots of power to save people but he failed to use it ---
he used it only a tiny bit. ----virtually ----symbolically. IMO---he was a moral failure. Maybe he was just timid

Yes and Adolph would have bombed the Vatican and Rome once Italy declared war on Germany in 1944, if not sooner. You make this sound so easy for a pope surrounded by devils to publicly defy them. I really doubt it would have saved millions of lives since Rome was powerless against Germany. Nothing stopped Hitler's evil designs.

'

who suggested that Italy DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY? you are very DEFENSIVE regarding the filth of Pope Pius in his utter lack of resistence to the genocide perpetrated by PIOUS CATHOLICS during world war II -----especially in view of the HISTORY of genocides perpetrated by the catholic church PRIOR to the big bad wolf ADOLF

 

[sealybobo]

I truly believe humanity is on the verge of shedding religion. We see there are now as many athiests in america as there are catholics and most countries are secular. Dont get me wrong we are a long way from true enlightenment but more and more rational people replacing the superstitious.

 

[turzovka]

bull shit. I am fully aware of the precarious postion of DA CHURCH during world war II----it's no excuse. I do not believe that pius made a "SAINTLY CHOICE" in sanctifying the murder of jewish children in Poland in order to save himself and his own. The Nazi army did not have the capacity to commit genocide upon all of the catholics of the world. I am not impressed in any way with the ass kissing of islamo Nazis that has been going on in CATHOLIC SOUTH AMERICA since the 1930s-----in fact I am not impressed with the role of the catholic church in south America since the murdering dog HERNAN CORTEZ got there. You got a single aspect of this situation right-------the POPE DOES IT FOR THE INTERESTS OF IL PAPA-----right or wrong IL PAPA COMES FIRST

You overspin even if you make some legitimate points. No doubt all other religions and regimes were far more courageous and outspoken.

But you do believe in G-d of course. So you have the answers to the larger questions then. So then no need to worry on that score?

No----they were not.........BUT the pope---is supposed to be the MORAL GUIDE of millions of people------and based on his renunciation
(as a priest) of materialism and his own creature comforts-----it is my firm conviction that pius FAILED. He failed because he considered the transitory welfare of "THE CHURCH" over the lives of millions of non-
catholics. Adolf could have taken revenge on the church had Pius acted more decisively------but he could not destroy it------
nor could he destroy the catholic people----it was just about all he had. Pius had lots of power to save people but he failed to use it ---
he used it only a tiny bit. ----virtually ----symbolically. IMO---he was a moral failure. Maybe he was just timid

Yes and Adolph would have bombed the Vatican and Rome once Italy declared war on Germany in 1944, if not sooner. You make this sound so easy for a pope surrounded by devils to publicly defy them. I really doubt it would have saved millions of lives since Rome was powerless against Germany. Nothing stopped Hitler's evil designs.

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who suggested that Italy DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY? you are very DEFENSIVE regarding the filth of Pope Pius in his utter lack of resistence to the genocide perpetrated by PIOUS CATHOLICS during world war II -----especially in view of the HISTORY of genocides perpetrated by the catholic church PRIOR to the big bad wolf ADOLF

I did not suggest it, I only recalled it. Italy declared war on Germany in 1944. I only defensive of Pius XII because there is a lot more information out there than just the claims that favor your disgust.

I am not aware of the genocides that perpetrated the Catholic Church prior to Adolph Hitler. Nor do I know of genocides perpetrated by pious Catholics during WW2.