the cover up by israel of the bombing of the uss liberty

[WillowTree]

WTF are you talking about? I posted a goddamn thread about the killing of those recruiters the day it happened.

The hell you say??? did you get your ass reamed for "exploiting the troops" I betcha ya didn't did ya?

nope, I didn't .. because I wasn't an asshole trying to use those deaths as political fodder. Now, did you want to cry about liberals again or just sit there after my pimp slap?

And neither was I asshole,, no more than your side set Dr. Tiller up as a political fodder.. and I'm not crying about liberals.. bud,, just pointing out yer hypocrisy,, care about soldiers then invite Iran for the 4th of july my aunt agnes..

 

[Tech_Esq]

Coverup theory alive at USS Liberty reunion - USATODAY.com

I have NSA original source documents, you have USA TODAY.

Yeah, that's pretty much the same. That's why most history books are written from newspaper articles posted 40 years after the fact not contemporaneous operational messages and interviews with first person participants.

Fail. Try again.

Here's where the cover up begins:

June 8, 1967

The White House has ordered the 4 A4 Skyraiders and 4 A1 attack aircraft from USS Saratoga and USS America to return to the ship and not support Liberty after it was attacked.

Then comes this message from Cyrus Vance then in the defense department, but later Secretary of State for Carter:

10 WE HAVE BEEN INFORMED BY TELEPHONE AT 081500Z THAT SECDEF VANCE
STATES THAT ALL PRESS RELEASES ON LIBERTY AFfAIR wILL BE MADE REPEAT
WILL BE MADE AT WASHINGTON LEVEL. No RELEASES TO BE MADE ON
SHIPS.

Message to 6th Fleet from SECDEF

And that proves what, exactly? I never realized ships that were attacked were in the habit of issuing press releases.

The fleet does all the time. That was not a message to the Liberty, that was a message to the USS Saratoga, the flag ship of the 6th Fleet. That's like saying you never hear anything from General Petreus.

What it proves is that the White House wanted to control the message from day one. They just did something crazy. They recalled aircraft that were going to defend an American ship that had just been attacked and was heavily damaged leaving it defenseless.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Bad analogy Bones, the Japanese DO not so accept, in fact they have for years been trying to rewrite the history of WWII with themselves as helpless victims.

Ask the Koreans about what Japan 'accepts responsibility' for.

hush xen if any of them knew history or what was going on they would have said that...

now xen do you really think the uss liberty was "friendly fire" and give your reasons...i have some half ass respect for you half the time..

You have to remember who was President and what was happening at the time.

LBJ was POTUS, it was the cold war & Vietnam era and the US and Israel were NOT allies.

There is little doubt the ship was targeted and destroyed, it was not an accident.

The problem is, what it was really doing.

It didn't just happen to 'stray' there, nor was it the innocent bystander some claim, the ship was a spy ship.

Since the USA and Israel are now allied, what really happened is not discussed, but I have heard talk that the ship was interferring with Israeli communications (which is possible knowing how LBJ's white house operated).

Your ire might be more rightly placed on the US gov's role in this, but I doubt we will ever know for sure what happened.

This contention is not supported by any of the original declassified material I've been reviewing all afternoon on NSA's site.

The Liberty was there for passive collection. The only indication I've seen of jamming came from the Israelis against the Liberty during the attack. Jamming units would have interfered with the collection capabilities of the ship. If you are familiar with the way that jammers work, you know that they overpower the frequency and thus "blow" regular transmissions off the air.

We were treated to a nice demonstration sigint jamming techniques in Germany vs. the East Germans. We got hammered ourselves vs. the Czechs.

 

[Tech_Esq]

More from the Rhodes Interview:

RHODESLike I said, they overflew us that morning
taking pictures, they knew who we were, how many ships
paint their •.. How many Navies paint their ships like we
do? They knew exactly who we were.

QuestionDid you see them overfly?

RHODES Yeah

QuestionCould you see the markings on the aircraft?

RHODES Israeli, that morning.

Question You could see it clearly?

RHODES Yeah they were close enough to see them. I mean they
came right on down, they were obviously photographing us.

 

[Ravi]

I don't think that is correct.

It is Ravi.

The US came to an agreement with Israel due to Soviet support of the Arab states in the aftermath of the 6 day war.

The weapons used by Israel in 67 where mostly European in design and procurment, such as:

British designed Centurion

French designed Mirage III (the type which attacked the liberty)

After the war the US heavily supplied Israel with new weapons, namely the M-48 and M-60 tanks, F-4 Fighterbombers and other assorted equipment.

huh...I was under the impression that the Brits and the French were also our allies at the time, no?

I also thought that we were allies with Israel since they became a country, and wikipedia (if no one else) seems to back that assumption up.

Israel – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ravi]

I have NSA original source documents, you have USA TODAY.

Yeah, that's pretty much the same. That's why most history books are written from newspaper articles posted 40 years after the fact not contemporaneous operational messages and interviews with first person participants.

Fail. Try again.

Here's where the cover up begins:

June 8, 1967

The White House has ordered the 4 A4 Skyraiders and 4 A1 attack aircraft from USS Saratoga and USS America to return to the ship and not support Liberty after it was attacked.

Then comes this message from Cyrus Vance then in the defense department, but later Secretary of State for Carter:
Message to 6th Fleet from SECDEF

And that proves what, exactly? I never realized ships that were attacked were in the habit of issuing press releases.

The fleet does all the time. That was not a message to the Liberty, that was a message to the USS Saratoga, the flag ship of the 6th Fleet. That's like saying you never hear anything from General Petreus.

What it proves is that the White House wanted to control the message from day one. They just did something crazy. They recalled aircraft that were going to defend an American ship that had just been attacked and was heavily damaged leaving it defenseless.

okay..but during an international crisis I'd think DC would always be the ones to control the message.

It sounds more likely that the USA was hiding something and not Israel.

 

[del]

I don't think that is correct.

It is Ravi.

The US came to an agreement with Israel due to Soviet support of the Arab states in the aftermath of the 6 day war.

The weapons used by Israel in 67 where mostly European in design and procurment, such as:

British designed Centurion

French designed Mirage III (the type which attacked the liberty)

After the war the US heavily supplied Israel with new weapons, namely the M-48 and M-60 tanks, F-4 Fighterbombers and other assorted equipment.

huh...I was under the impression that the Brits and the French were also our allies at the time, no?

I also thought that we were allies with Israel since they became a country, and wikipedia (if no one else) seems to back that assumption up.

Israel – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

us was still pissed about the suez crisis. allies don't always pull in the same direction in every instance.

 

[Xenophon]

I don't think that is correct.

It is Ravi.

The US came to an agreement with Israel due to Soviet support of the Arab states in the aftermath of the 6 day war.

The weapons used by Israel in 67 where mostly European in design and procurment, such as:

British designed Centurion

French designed Mirage III (the type which attacked the liberty)

After the war the US heavily supplied Israel with new weapons, namely the M-48 and M-60 tanks, F-4 Fighterbombers and other assorted equipment.

huh...I was under the impression that the Brits and the French were also our allies at the time, no?

I also thought that we were allies with Israel since they became a country, and wikipedia (if no one else) seems to back that assumption up.

Israel – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That assumption is DEAD WRONG.

And just because the US is allied with someone does not mean they are all allied.

The Brits and French had alliances with israel at various times, they even joined the 56 war on israel's side.

 

[Xenophon]

This contention is not supported by any of the original declassified material I've been reviewing all afternoon on NSA's site.

The Liberty was there for passive collection. The only indication I've seen of jamming came from the Israelis against the Liberty during the attack. Jamming units would have interfered with the collection capabilities of the ship. If you are familiar with the way that jammers work, you know that they overpower the frequency and thus "blow" regular transmissions off the air.

We were treated to a nice demonstration sigint jamming techniques in Germany vs. the East Germans. We got hammered ourselves vs. the Czechs.

'Collection'

What a perfect LBJ type word...

It means they were spying and interferring in other people's affairs, something the USA loves to do.

 

[WillowTree]

It is Ravi.

The US came to an agreement with Israel due to Soviet support of the Arab states in the aftermath of the 6 day war.

The weapons used by Israel in 67 where mostly European in design and procurment, such as:

British designed Centurion

French designed Mirage III (the type which attacked the liberty)

After the war the US heavily supplied Israel with new weapons, namely the M-48 and M-60 tanks, F-4 Fighterbombers and other assorted equipment.

huh...I was under the impression that the Brits and the French were also our allies at the time, no?

I also thought that we were allies with Israel since they became a country, and wikipedia (if no one else) seems to back that assumption up.

Israel – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

us was still pissed about the suez crisis. allies don't always pull in the same direction in every instance.

Take France for instance!

 

[DiveCon]

hush xen if any of them knew history or what was going on they would have said that...

now xen do you really think the uss liberty was "friendly fire" and give your reasons...i have some half ass respect for you half the time..

You have to remember who was President and what was happening at the time.

LBJ was POTUS, it was the cold war & Vietnam era and the US and Israel were NOT allies.

There is little doubt the ship was targeted and destroyed, it was not an accident.

The problem is, what it was really doing.

It didn't just happen to 'stray' there, nor was it the innocent bystander some claim, the ship was a spy ship.

Since the USA and Israel are now allied, what really happened is not discussed, but I have heard talk that the ship was interferring with Israeli communications (which is possible knowing how LBJ's white house operated).

Your ire might be more rightly placed on the US gov's role in this, but I doubt we will ever know for sure what happened.

I don't think.

fixed for accuracy


because it is absolutely correct

 

[strollingbones]

could israel have been afraid that the fact they were killing pows been part of the cover up...a communications ship is gonna pick up the chatter on something like that....look back in the posts to the you tube...it clearly shows the murdering of the pows ..

 

[Ravi]

huh...I was under the impression that the Brits and the French were also our allies at the time, no?

I also thought that we were allies with Israel since they became a country, and wikipedia (if no one else) seems to back that assumption up.

Israel – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That assumption is DEAD WRONG.

And just because the US is allied with someone does not mean they are all allied.

The Brits and French had alliances with israel at various times, they even joined the 56 war on israel's side.

We haven't been allies with the Brits and France since before ww1? Why should I believe you over wikipedia?

 

[Ravi]

us was still pissed about the suez crisis. allies don't always pull in the same direction in every instance.

I realize that...remember freedom fries? But still, I'm pretty sure they were our allies from the beginning.

Though it makes a stronger case for them if they weren't at the time I suppose. Why would we lie for someone that was our enemy?

 

[Xenophon]

We haven't been allies with the Brits and France since before ww1?

No we have not.
If the US was allied to both since 'before WWI' why did the USA not declare war on Germany in August of 1914 as France and britain did? (US entered that war in 1917, years later)

If the USA was still 'allied' to them after WWI why did the USA NOT declare war on Nazi Germany in september of 1939 as both of them did? (US entered WWII in december of 1941, also years later)

Those were both 'war time' alliances not perpetual alliances.

The US is only 'allied' to Britain since 1949 through the narrowly defined NATO treaty, they are NOT traditional alliance partners in any other way. As for France, the only alliance with them is the same, through NATO which they backed out of in the 1960s and only now are rejoining.

Why should I believe you over wikipedia?

Becuase I know what I am talking about.

 

[Shogun]

The hell you say??? did you get your ass reamed for "exploiting the troops" I betcha ya didn't did ya?

nope, I didn't .. because I wasn't an asshole trying to use those deaths as political fodder. Now, did you want to cry about liberals again or just sit there after my pimp slap?

And neither was I asshole,, no more than your side set Dr. Tiller up as a political fodder.. and I'm not crying about liberals.. bud,, just pointing out yer hypocrisy,, care about soldiers then invite Iran for the 4th of july my aunt agnes..

Again, I posted the same ******* thread you did. Not only that, but mine wasn't chock full of people busting you out for using it for political gain. Link your thread, *****. And, regarding Tiller, AGAIN you **** up. Link any of THOSE thread, *****.. You might just find that you crammed your foot into your own goddamn mouth after you read MY posts on the subject.

 

[Tech_Esq]

This contention is not supported by any of the original declassified material I've been reviewing all afternoon on NSA's site.

The Liberty was there for passive collection. The only indication I've seen of jamming came from the Israelis against the Liberty during the attack. Jamming units would have interfered with the collection capabilities of the ship. If you are familiar with the way that jammers work, you know that they overpower the frequency and thus "blow" regular transmissions off the air.

We were treated to a nice demonstration sigint jamming techniques in Germany vs. the East Germans. We got hammered ourselves vs. the Czechs.

'Collection'

What a perfect LBJ type word...

It means they were spying and interferring in other people's affairs, something the USA loves to do.

Ummm....DUH! The USS Liberty was operating under a tasking order from the National Security Agency. Just about all the information I've posted is from the official NSA archive concerning the USS Liberty incident. I don't think anyone is trying to say the Liberty was anything but an electronic spy ship.

How, exactly is the passive collection of electronic communications and non-communications information "interfering" with other people?

It was however, in international waters. It was also a properly flagged and marked ship of the US, a neutral country in the Arab-Israeli war.

 

[Tech_Esq]

could israel have been afraid that the fact they were killing pows been part of the cover up...a communications ship is gonna pick up the chatter on something like that....look back in the posts to the you tube...it clearly shows the murdering of the pows ..

I'm not a fan of speculating about motivation. It's too easy to start sounding conspiratorial and without information from the Israeli side about carrying out the attack, it's too easy to be wrong. The facts of the case, as they have come to light especially over the last 5 years, leave no doubt that Israel did the act and that Israel knew who and what they were attacking. That's where the focus should be until we have more information.

In researching the NSA documents, I've come across three speculations on motivation:

1) The executions occurring on the coast in the line of sight of the Liberty.

2) The impending attack on Syrian forces on the Golan Heights.

3) The attempt to bring the US into the war by sinking the Liberty and killing all hands and then blaming it on the UAR (Egypt).

Of these, I think the last is most likely. The first is an easy explanation that seems to make sense until you consider how military forces work. If it was done as a cover up of war crimes, then higher HQ would have had to know that war crimes were being committed there. A political calculation would have had to be done that it would be better to alienate the US, than have it report that war crime. Doesn't sound probable to me.

Although the Israelis were planing and executing the attack on the Golan at that time, the Liberty would have been fairly well out of position to receive useful transmissions regarding any operations against the Syrians. So, I don't think the Israelis would have thought that.

Israel was in an existential conflict in 1967. On paper, Israel was out manned and out gunned everywhere. On paper, the Arabs should have beaten the tail off Israel in 6 days instead of the other way around. The one thing the Higher HQ did know is that they were out-manned and out gunned and could really use some help. If they could have sunk the Liberty and left no, or few survivors, it would have been easy to spin this that the UAR had done it and bring the US 6th Fleet to bear on the Egyptians. This would be supported by the lack of markings on the aircraft and naval craft used in the attack. Even after the attack the members of the Liberty were not sure it was Israel. They had expected a possible attack by the UAR not Israel.

There were no Hebrew linguists on the Liberty. Anything that would have been collected by the ship that was in reference to Israeli action would have only been known when the raw data was shipped back to NSA in Ft. Meade, MD for analysis. Even then, the Liberty was focused on collecting UAR information, not Israeli information. That was their specific tasking order from NSA.