The Cosmological Arguments for God's Existence

[LittleNipper]

So its really about ego and your fear of death.

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid (not necessary in that order); however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD, life and death are empty and meaningless.

 

[G.T.]

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid, however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD there life and death are empty and meaningless.

My life has a point, its not "empty and meaningless"...and so too will my death. The point is what you, the sentient being decide. Its what you, the driver of that meat-wagon decides. Thats the purpose of life: whatever one you gave it.

Even WITH belief in scripture, ala free will it becomes YOUR decision in that context as well. In both world-views, YOU decide the point.

My beliefs are things that I have reason to find accurate...if there's a point to be had in that.. its to seek knowledge and be properly skeptical. To the beliefs, in and of themselves having a "point?" Im sure some do and some dont...thats just an odd comment to begin with. Id be glad to discuss the point of any one of them, though...to the extent which they have 1.

 

[G.T.]

 

[ding]

Man was made to worship God. Most don’t know what worship means though.

Worship is hardwired into man. Absent worship of God, man will worship something else. Usually himself.

 

[LittleNipper]

Baseless assertions about that which we know not.

So, you don't accept evolution and uniformitarianism because such are based on baseless assertions...

Ok. What is uniformitarianism?

It's the belief that everything has been moving along pretty much the same for hundreds of millions of years. No FLOOD, no 6 day creation, just a slow wearing away and slow rebuilding process repeated over and over...

Interesting. I'd change that to billions of years but you could certainly call me a uniformitarianist. I may need a t-shirt.

2 Peter 3: New International Version (NIV)
The Day of the Lord
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation (Uniformitarian thinking). 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Oops, another silly error. He is not doing that, nor does he need to do so. You are the one making the assertions. All one has to do to undermine your useless argument is to show counterarguments exist that undermine your assertion and that you cannot definitvely rule out.

You put yourself in this weak position with your universal, unsupported, unevidenced assertions. Maybe you will learn your lesson. But i doubt it. Religion does that to people's brains.

For example, we have this silly-ass statement from Fun for brains regarding G.T.'s deafening silence in response to my observation that Morriston-Malpass' "intuition" that a potential infinity is equally viable in both past and future directions of time because the past and future directions of time are symmetrical. Their notion is imbecilic because to continuously add events to the past is to continuously move backwards in time. To continuously move backwards in time is to never move forward in time to the present, let alone move forward in time into the future! That is self-evident. If Morriston-Malpass mean to impose the B theory of time then their argument is not with Craig as he doesn't ascribe to the B theory to time.

Another aspect of their critique is equally puzzling. As I previously observed:

Morriston is actually a Christian, that is to say, a liberal Christian who thinks that God is an actual infinite. He thinks he's refuting Craig, when actually he's arguing against rational and textual orthodoxy in defense of his liberal theology in this wise. In other words, Morriston is trying to cram his theology down reality's throat, rather than let God's uncreated logic that He bestowed on us to speak for itself and lead us where it will as God intended. This is why G.T.'s appeal to Morriston-Malpass' line of argumentation is so hilarious.

[. . .]

G.T. raised Malpass' video when he thought he was springing something new and profound on me, but he lost interest in discussing it, apparently, when he realized it wasn't new or profound to me. In the final analysis, all they're really saying, aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds. But such only exist as theoretical apprehensions of possibility in minds, and even then only as ideas without any definitive quantity or amount. For example, we all understand that any line from point A to point B can in theory be "infinitely" divided without end. But at any given moment in the process of division, the number of segments into which the line has been divided is finite, and the sum of its segments are equal to the origin whole. No one is arguing that infinity doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist as anything more than an idea of a boundlessly large and indeterminable number or amount of something in minds. Outside minds, an actual infinite does not and cannot exist in any sense but as a potential infinite tending toward infinity, but never reaching infinity, as, ultimately, infinity has no extremity.​

On the latter, Morriston proposes that three angels are compelled to praise God at regular intervals forever into the future. Malpass goes on about a demon cursing his fate at regular intervals forever into the future. These are said to constitute states of actual infinities as a brute mathematical fact, but how is this not anything more than an actual state of potential infinity consisting of a finite number of praises/cursings at any given moment in a series wherein the future praises/cursings have yet to occur or exist? All they're describing is the causal conditions for an endless series of a boundlessly large and indeterminable number of praises/cursings.

G.T. posts this gibberish in a video.
G.T. implies that the posting of this gibberish overthrows the imperatives of the A theory of time.
G.T. is confronted by the counterargument of why this gibberish is gibberish (also see Craig's more indepth deconstruction of this gibberish).
G.T. is silent.

I was sort of hoping that G.T. might be able to directly engage me so that we might eventually move onto why the KCA would necessarily hold up under the B theory of time as well. Surprise! Surprise! But I guess we won't get to that given that G.T. has yet to demonstrate that he personally understands the matter in terms of the A theory, and is merely citing any ol' "authority" that comes along to affirm his preordained biases.

You're not following, apparently.

Your first premises are unevidenced, authoritative assertions, the truth of which you could not possibly know.

No amount of masturbatory word salads is going to change that.

No amount of declarations of victory will change that.

You are exhibiting faith. And that is fine. What is embarrasing and absurd is your dog and pony show that is for an audience of one -- yourself -- performed in an effort to soothe yourself and to convince yourself your faith is not faith.

This isn't complicated.

 

[LittleNipper]

We don't all disagree. Many hold to the very same truths but they originated under different leadership and from different countries: Lutherans (Germany), Huguenots (French), Mennonite (Swiss), Puritans (English), etc..
There are Jews who are Messianic, and there are many former Hindi who now know Christ as their personal Savior. People who are honest, will realize that trying to be good enough for GOD isn't possible. There is the need of a permanent solution. Jesus was/is the only permanent solution..

So its really about ego and your fear of death.

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid

So what? You believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. You reject the most robust scientific theories known to man. Who gives a shit what you think about anyone's beliefs?

 

[LittleNipper]

Does anyone here besides JB believe the universe was created 6000 years ago?

I surely believe that GOD could have created the entire universe then. He certainly created TIME.

 

[LittleNipper]

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid

So what? You believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. You reject the most robust scientific theories known to man. Who gives a shit what you think about anyone's beliefs?

No, YOU believe that I believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. I reject conjecture that is labelled by atheists and agnostic as science. Clearly, there are others beside yourself who ponder more than you are willing to give them credit for.

 

[LittleNipper]

What does the Bible tell you? Or do you read the Bible?

Beliefs not worth speaking out loud are beliefs not worth having?

How old do you believe the earth and universe are?

So does that mean that I have to assume you do not read the Bible? You admitted you didn't read Genesis, but think it's allegorical and even posted a ridiculous one-page paper on it.

Next, I suppose there are many things you believe about Catholicism, but you do not speak with the believers. Instead, you talk religion and ethics with atheists. What do you expect them to provide? Their atheism? Why not own what you believe and defend it? I admitted I do not know all about Catholic dogma and someone who knows would run rings around me. I've discussed with others here. Even if you just knew what Pope Francis knows and supported it by explaining what he is saying then that would make you seem more knowledgeable. Yet, you seem to deny what he has said.

Anyway, if the age of the earth and universe is important to you, then you should compare what the fake science of evolution says versus what the real science says. Which side provides the better evidence?

Here is what God said about the age of Earth and universe and that is we will never know exactly how old. He said some things he will keep to himself. Thus, we will never really know.

Now what do I believe? I believe in a young universe and Earth because of the uniform temperature of the universe. For the Earth, it has a great many bent rocks. Didn't I state the uniform temperature of 2.7 K degrees already throughout the universe? Or did that just go over your .

I skipped everything but the last paragraph.

How young? Can you ballpark it for me?

Since you just skipped and didn't answer my questions, you just proved my point of being a dingbat, asshat, Catholic who doesn't read the Bible, a gay sinner, and serious Dunning-Kruger afflicted personality . What else is wrong with you?

Am I correct in assuming you believe God created the universe was created 6000 years or so ago and that how it was created was pretty much how it looks today?

In other words, there was no Big Bang, the elements greater than hydrogen and helium were not created through supernovas, there was no evolution, no dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago, everything we see today was how it was when God created creation?

I don't believe the Universe was created as it appears today. I believe after the Fall of man the entire Universe began to decay. That decay eventually resulted in meteor/asteroid strikes, that eventually resulted in the FLOOD, the fracturing of the earth's surface, mountain building and ice ages. In fact, I believe that changes occurred far faster than anyone today cares to imagine --- and that's why people are so upset about climate change, etc. They actually believe man can fix our environment. Only GOD can --- as HE did in the past --- if it suits HIM.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I reject conjecture that is labelled by atheists and agnostic as science.

Haha, yeah, i know. And even when fellow christians call it science.

 

[LittleNipper]

I reject conjecture that is labelled by atheists and agnostic as science.

Haha, yeah, i know. And even when fellow Christians call it science.

Christians are saved individuals who place their faith in the Messiah and not in science. Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid, however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD there life and death are empty and meaningless.

My life has a point, its not "empty and meaningless"...and so too will my death. The point is what you, the sentient being decide. Its what you, the driver of that meat-wagon decides. Thats the purpose of life: whatever one you gave it.

Even WITH belief in scripture, ala free will it becomes YOUR decision in that context as well. In both world-views, YOU decide the point.

My beliefs are things that I have reason to find accurate...if there's a point to be had in that.. its to seek knowledge and be properly skeptical. To the beliefs, in and of themselves having a "point?" Im sure some do and some dont...thats just an odd comment to begin with. Id be glad to discuss the point of any one of them, though...to the extent which they have 1.

Without GOD you might as well never have existed, and in a hundred years (if CHRIST tarries) --- you will be just another forgotten cog.

 

[Ringtone]

Your first premises are unevidenced, authoritative assertions, the truth of which you could not possibly know. . . .

This isn't complicated.

Translation: Fun for brains thinks existence from nonexistence is possible.

 

[BreezeWood]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

.

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

there is no reason the metaphysical "consciousness without form" could not be plural as all religions manifest an origin for the spiritual, your example is no different in exacting an eternal from a beginning as causal for there being multiple examples of the former and being dissimilar. simply there is an Everlasting for whatever exists for however long that existence may last.

* there are multiple causes for all that exists, overlapping not eternal.

 

[G.T.]

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid, however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD there life and death are empty and meaningless.

My life has a point, its not "empty and meaningless"...and so too will my death. The point is what you, the sentient being decide. Its what you, the driver of that meat-wagon decides. Thats the purpose of life: whatever one you gave it.

Even WITH belief in scripture, ala free will it becomes YOUR decision in that context as well. In both world-views, YOU decide the point.

My beliefs are things that I have reason to find accurate...if there's a point to be had in that.. its to seek knowledge and be properly skeptical. To the beliefs, in and of themselves having a "point?" Im sure some do and some dont...thats just an odd comment to begin with. Id be glad to discuss the point of any one of them, though...to the extent which they have 1.

Without GOD you might as well never have existed, and in a hundred years (if CHRIST tarries) --- you will be just another forgotten cog.

Amen! Put your dollars in the basket!

 

[buttercup]

This is one way faith poisons the mind.

Belief in Jesus doesn't poison the mind. That is the foundation for this thread, Fort Fun Indiana, but it has gone over your head .

You talk about faith, but atheists have "faith" in their no God religion, as well. You have no proof that God does not exist nor that he didn't create the universe. Where is your counter to Kalam's Cosmological argument?

Yet, you want proof of God when there is no proof. Otherwise, why would one need faith? The things that atheists say to Christians and believers usually do not make much sense.

You guys are without God which I think you will agree to. How everyone will end up believing in God has already been prophecised as below. This means that everything will be settled on Earth and not in the afterlife. It won't be pain and suffering used as the strong persuader. I was wrong about that. “‘Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.” Revelation 1:7 The nature of God was explained in Genesis (beginning) and we see it again in Revelation and Daniel (end times). Amen.

Not only that, but one day every knee will bow. Including Fort Fun and GT.

 

[Hollie]

So its really about ego and your fear of death.

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

So.... 6,000 years ago the all- loving gods wiped humanity from the planet excepting Noah and his immediate family.

The gods thought that familial relations / incestuous relations to repopulate the planet was a good idea.

One question though, why didn't the omniscience gods know that the humans they created were evil and base. Wasn’t fruit theft the curse on humanity for all time and for all of mankind? The gods must have known that humanity would be precisely as the gods had created them.

 

[Hollie]

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid

So what? You believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. You reject the most robust scientific theories known to man. Who gives a shit what you think about anyone's beliefs?

No, YOU believe that I believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. I reject conjecture that is labelled by atheists and agnostic as science. Clearly, there are others beside yourself who ponder more than you are willing to give them credit for.

Please tell me you wouldn’t deny children competent medical care and treatment innovated by those evil atheist scientists.

I suspect you would but please just lie to me and tell me you wouldn’t.