The Cosmological Arguments for God's Existence

[diver52]

Baseless assertions about that which we know not.

So, you don't accept evolution and uniformitarianism because such are based on baseless assertions...

Ok. What is uniformitarianism?

It's the belief that everything has been moving along pretty much the same for hundreds of millions of years. No FLOOD, no 6 day creation, just a slow wearing away and slow rebuilding process repeated over and over...

Interesting. I'd change that to billions of years but you could certainly call me a uniformitarianist. I may need a t-shirt.

2 Peter 3: New International Version (NIV)
The Day of the Lord
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation (Uniformitarian thinking). 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Yep. That's me.

 

[diver52]

So its really about ego and your fear of death.

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

 

[diver52]

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid, however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD there life and death are empty and meaningless.

My life has a point, its not "empty and meaningless"...and so too will my death. The point is what you, the sentient being decide. Its what you, the driver of that meat-wagon decides. Thats the purpose of life: whatever one you gave it.

Even WITH belief in scripture, ala free will it becomes YOUR decision in that context as well. In both world-views, YOU decide the point.

My beliefs are things that I have reason to find accurate...if there's a point to be had in that.. its to seek knowledge and be properly skeptical. To the beliefs, in and of themselves having a "point?" Im sure some do and some dont...thats just an odd comment to begin with. Id be glad to discuss the point of any one of them, though...to the extent which they have 1.

Without GOD you might as well never have existed, and in a hundred years (if CHRIST tarries) --- you will be just another forgotten cog.

Now, on this we agree. We will all be just another forgotten cog.

 

[BreezeWood]

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know.

you know.

they turned the religion of antiquity into a macabre nursery rhyme for children - your one of them ...

 

[BreezeWood]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

They are not symmetrical in terms of extremity. Theoretically, time can move forward forever. To go backward in time is to move toward the beginning of time, t = 0.

.

They are not symmetrical in terms of extremity. Theoretically, time can move forward forever. To go backward in time is to move toward the beginning of time, t = 0.

how BB is cyclical, boomerang theory would have a different bearing on time as you have stated - I just believe if going forward is infinite the same would be for a different direction. for at least the metaphysical.

 

[james bond]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

Just one post after I criticized you again. This new post is exactly what I was referring to. What is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time? Certainly, it isn't what WLC refers to in his Kalam's Cosmological argument. This is the stuff you make up and it may as well be more of the same as your "militant atheist" post. What does it have to do with Catholicism let alone religion? You have no sources. If you supported Pope Francis, then people wouldn't think any worse of you .

“If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

I don’t care what you think about me.

That’s how I perceive God. Consciousness. Mind. Eternal. It’s the closest one can come to describe something which can not be described in human terms.

Let's forget the pope's statement. It should make you think that there is more to Pope Francis than meets the eye, but whatever.

It seems that you are running away from a religious discussion in the R&E forum. For it doesn't answer my question of what is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time. Do you mean God the Father? Then yes, he exists outside of our physical realm. Do you know why?

That leaves Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and more. Which beings exist in our physical realm and where do they reside? I would think this is part of Catholic beliefs, too, since they believe in the Athanasian Creed, i.e. Holy Trinity, and Jesus.

 

[james bond]

That was quite a tirade. You also employed every cliche and worn, tired slogan from the more notorious fundie creation ministries.

Not cliche. You're probably the expert at that.

I probably argue R&E better than politics even though some of it overlap. Regarding your comment, it's not just Christian fundamentalists that believe the same thing regarding the first two books of Genesis, but also Judaism. They have fundamentalists and their allegorists.

 

[ding]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

Just one post after I criticized you again. This new post is exactly what I was referring to. What is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time? Certainly, it isn't what WLC refers to in his Kalam's Cosmological argument. This is the stuff you make up and it may as well be more of the same as your "militant atheist" post. What does it have to do with Catholicism let alone religion? You have no sources. If you supported Pope Francis, then people wouldn't think any worse of you .

“If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

I don’t care what you think about me.

That’s how I perceive God. Consciousness. Mind. Eternal. It’s the closest one can come to describe something which can not be described in human terms.

Let's forget the pope's statement. It should make you think that there is more to Pope Francis than meets the eye, but whatever.

It seems that you are running away from a religious discussion in the R&E forum. For it doesn't answer my question of what is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time. Do you mean God the Father? Then yes, he exists outside of our physical realm. Do you know why?

That leaves Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and more. Which beings exist in our physical realm and where do they reside? I would think this is part of Catholic beliefs, too, since they believe in the Athanasian Creed, i.e. Holy Trinity, and Jesus.

I am trying to establish the nature of a being we can’t possibly describe in human terms. The closest I can come is consciousness without form.

I am also trying to be as polite as I can be to someone who actually doesn’t deserve being treated politely. That’s you by the way in case you didn’t realize it.

I don’t really see what the pope has to do with this conversation.

 

[james bond]

I am trying to establish the nature of a being we can’t possibly describe in human terms. The closest I can come is consciousness without form.

Okay, but that's something you made up as allegory. Genesis gives us God the Father's nature. He's like us. We have his sense of justice and innate sense of what's right and what's wrong. He also looks like us as a human being. We argue what race he could be, but that's not important. With Jesus, we know that there is a strong tie with him being Jewish or Aramaic. He isn't mentioned by name in Genesis, but he is the coming Messiah or Savior who will deliver his people to the promised land. All of this is explained and how the birth of human civilization played out. Many people have trouble with Genesis because of its incredulity, so there is disagreement between believers and non-believers.

God the Father does not reside in the material world because of sin. He is holy (key concept), so hates sin. We were separated from God due to Adam's sin. Thus, the only way to get to God is through Jesus who will cleanse us of all our sins when he returns the second time. The Father may live in another dimension. We have to show that another dimension exists first. So far, it's only a theory. The work at CERN (LHC) is trying to show that some quantum particles pop in and out of existence. Where else would it go but another dimension? That of space and time?

The Holy Spirit lives in the material world inside us, the believers. He inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Jesus also lives inside us in the heart. He is more difficult to describe, as he lived as a human, and is also part of the Godhead, but Matthew provides his teachings. He may be gravity and the dark energy that stretches out the heavens like a tent. Satan and his demons live in the middle layer or the heavens of outer space (atmosphere). He is the "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." He tempts us and lies and tricks us. He's actually quite powerful as we cannot see him and he hides. Most people end up forgetting about him. They blame God instead. Besides temptation, he also can disguise himself as an angel of light so can lead us astray. The angels live in the same area. They protect us from harm that Satan may inflict, but we don't know when it will be our time.

I am also trying to be as polite as I can be to someone who actually doesn’t deserve being treated politely. That’s you by the way in case you didn’t realize it.

Okay, I apologize for the nasty and mean things I said. Unfortunately, I can't undo the hurt I caused; it's something I have to correct in myself by the grace of Jesus. I will do better in the future. That said, I can't correct or explain my view if someone won't accept what is written in the Bible. You may have different thoughts and interpretations, but we have to go by the same set of facts of what is written down. Else there can be no meaningful discussion.

I don’t really see what the pope has to do with this conversation.

I just brought up Pope Francis because he's well known and he's in the news a lot. He's easy to understand even if you disagree with him. Yet, he represents Catholics and Catholicism. Those things come through if you dig a little deeper from just what's presented in the news. I have learned things from him even though I may not agree with his liberal politics. I think he truly lives his faith in God. That is something we can all learn from. TBH, some think he is the Antichrist, but throughout history there are several people whom a majority thought were the Antichrist such as Hitler, Mussolini and others. Actually, this is prophecised in the Bible. Another prophecy that has come true.

 

[ding]

I am trying to establish the nature of a being we can’t possibly describe in human terms. The closest I can come is consciousness without form.

Okay, but that's something you made up as allegory. Genesis gives us God the Father's nature. He's like us. We have his sense of justice and innate sense of what's right and what's wrong. He also looks like us as a human being. We argue what race he could be, but that's not important. With Jesus, we know that there is a strong tie with him being Jewish or Aramaic. He isn't mentioned by name in Genesis, but he is the coming Messiah or Savior who will deliver his people to the promised land. All of this is explained and how the birth of human civilization played out. Many people have trouble with Genesis because of its incredulity, so there is disagreement between believers and non-believers.

God the Father does not reside in the material world because of sin. He is holy (key concept), so hates sin. We were separated from God due to Adam's sin. Thus, the only way to get to God is through Jesus who will cleanse us of all our sins when he returns the second time. The Father may live in another dimension. We have to show that another dimension exists first. So far, it's only a theory. The work at CERN (LHC) is trying to show that some quantum particles pop in and out of existence. Where else would it go but another dimension? That of space and time?

The Holy Spirit lives in the material world inside us, the believers. He inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Jesus also lives inside us in the heart. He is more difficult to describe, as he lived as a human, and is also part of the Godhead, but Matthew provides his teachings. He may be gravity and the dark energy that stretches out the heavens like a tent. Satan and his demons live in the middle layer or the heavens of outer space (atmosphere). He is the "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." He tempts us and lies and tricks us. He's actually quite powerful as we cannot see him and he hides. Most people end up forgetting about him. They blame God instead. Besides temptation, he also can disguise himself as an angel of light so can lead us astray. The angels live in the same area. They protect us from harm that Satan may inflict, but we don't know when it will be our time.

I am also trying to be as polite as I can be to someone who actually doesn’t deserve being treated politely. That’s you by the way in case you didn’t realize it.

Okay, I apologize for the nasty and mean things I said. Unfortunately, I can't undo the hurt I caused; it's something I have to correct in myself by the grace of Jesus. I will do better in the future. That said, I can't correct or explain my view if someone won't accept what is written in the Bible. You may have different thoughts and interpretations, but we have to go by the same set of facts of what is written down. Else there can be no meaningful discussion.

I don’t really see what the pope has to do with this conversation.

I just brought up Pope Francis because he's well known and he's in the news a lot. He's easy to understand even if you disagree with him. Yet, he represents Catholics and Catholicism. Those things come through if you dig a little deeper from just what's presented in the news. I have learned things from him even though I may not agree with his liberal politics. I think he truly lives his faith in God. That is something we can all learn from. TBH, some think he is the Antichrist, but throughout history there are several people whom a majority thought were the Antichrist such as Hitler, Mussolini and others. Actually, this is prophecised in the Bible. Another prophecy that has come true.

I appreciate what you are saying and am happy for you to believe as you do, but I don’t believe God has a physical form. I believe he is beyond the material. Even beyond energy as we know it. We can’t possibly relate to his nature because it is unlike anything we can relate to.

So when it is said we were created in his image, I don’t believe that means literally in his image. I believe it means we are beings that know and create. I see that phrase as more to distinguish us from his other creatures.

 

[ding]

I should probably add that I don’t put any limits on God. So if God chose to take a material form he could but his nature is unlike anything we know or can imagine.

 

[Ringtone]

The work at CERN (LHC) is trying to show that some quantum particles pop in and out of existence. Where else would it go but another dimension? That of space and time?

Actually, virtual particles don't literally pop into and out of existence as such. They arise from the intrinsic energy of space itself. So, yes, they are nothing more than another form of energy in spacetime.

 

[Ringtone]

I probably argue R&E better than politics even though some of it overlap. Regarding your comment, it's not just Christian fundamentalists that believe the same thing regarding the first two books of Genesis, but also Judaism. They have fundamentalists and their allegorists.

My interpretation is not allegorist; mine is literal. After all, all scripture has a literal meaning in the final analysis. On my view, the Bible does not tell us anything about the age of the universe or that of terrestrial life in general. It does, however, seem to indicate an age for mankind of 6,000 to 20,000 years.

 

[diver52]

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know.

you know.

they turned the religion of antiquity into a macabre nursery rhyme for children - your one of them ...

Well, you know... if my choice is to be like a child or an ass, I'll take the child. I'll live with my choice, you live with yours.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It does, however, seem to indicate an age for mankind of 6,000 to 20,000 years.

Which, of course,is utter nonsense.

Given that the Bible is so spectacularly wrong about that, doesn't it give you pause that it may be spectacularly wrong about other things , as well?

 

[james bond]

Actually, virtual particles don't literally pop into and out of existence as such. They arise from the intrinsic energy of space itself. So, yes, they are nothing more than another form of energy in spacetime.

The new theory to add to Einstein's ToR is the discovery of gravitational waves. These waves would also exist as particles per the wave-particle experiment and known as gravitons. One of the objectives of CERN is to discover the graviton and what happens to it. Since gravitational pull can be overcome with magnetic force, it is thought to be a weak force and one of the reasons is the graviton escapes into the 4th D.

How does gravity work?

How do gravitons and curved space time work together?

List of gravitational wave observations - Wikipedia

 

[james bond]

I appreciate what you are saying and am happy for you to believe as you do, but I don’t believe God has a physical form. I believe he is beyond the material. Even beyond energy as we know it. We can’t possibly relate to his nature because it is unlike anything we can relate to.

So when it is said we were created in his image, I don’t believe that means literally in his image. I believe it means we are beings that know and create. I see that phrase as more to distinguish us from his other creatures.

Well, what you are stating isn't right and I do agree that God is beyond the material and even beyond energy. We can definitely relate to God because he was with Adam and Eve. We got to know God in the short time they were together. There are also other interactions with God and people in the Bible. God did have physical form when Jesus was born through immaculate conception. He was born wholly human, but still remained as deity. This is another key concept. Some people say he was human. Others say he remained divine. But neither is correct.

I should probably add that I don’t put any limits on God. So if God chose to take a material form he could but his nature is unlike anything we know or can imagine.

Yes, there are no limits on God and that was expressed through supernatural creation in Genesis and Jesus being both human and deity at the same time. Again, God took material form as Jesus. He exists as spirit within all the believers. Just these two things describe what you state and it is unlike anything we know or can imagine. We also have the miracle of the Resurrection where Jesus became deity again. The Bible state no being of flesh and blood can enter heaven. Jesus was of new flesh, but no blood. This is how our transformation will be. All of this is explained in the Bible. I'm not saying that this is all as I agree there are no limits, but this is part of what has been described in the Bible. What about the spiritually dead? How will they be resurrected? They will be of flesh and blood and not permanent and eventually be cast into the lake of fire. What about their spiritually perfect bodies? They will witness its destruction in the lake of fire, so there seems to be some method to the sequence of events that transpires.

As I said, there is incredulity in what has transpired in Genesis. I think you acknowledge that with your beliefs. However, we have been told as to what happened. We also been told of Noah's Flood. That was incredulous and a show of the power of God and his nature. What happened was just in his eyes. The other things we do not mention often is the dualism. This is about God vs Satan or Jesus vs Satan. There is a good side and for the good to exist, there has to be bad or absence of good. It's like there has to be dark (absence of light) to have light and heat to have cold (absence of heat). Now, the end times is even more incredulous, just like Genesis was incredulous, but some of those prophecies have been shaping up.

 

[Ringtone]

Actually, virtual particles don't literally pop into and out of existence as such. They arise from the intrinsic energy of space itself. So, yes, they are nothing more than another form of energy in spacetime.

The new theory to add to Einstein's ToR is the discovery of gravitational waves. These waves would also exist as particles per the wave-particle experiment and known as gravitons. One of the objectives of CERN is to discover the graviton and what happens to it. Since gravitational pull can be overcome with magnetic force, it is thought to be a weak force and one of the reasons is the graviton escapes into the 4th D.

How does gravity work?

How do gravitons and curved space time work together?

List of gravitational wave observations - Wikipedia

Ah! Okay, I misread you. Good eye. Thought you were referring to something else. I think it more likely that loop quantum theory is on the right track. General relativity is a background-independent theory, as the account of its background (spacetime) is an inherent component of the theory. LQG theorists believe that a theory of quantum gravity must be background-independent, a theory that explains spacetime instead of being "plugged into" a preexisting spacetime framework.

LQG theorists regard the smooth fabric of spacetime in general relativity and posit that it's made up of smaller fibers woven together. In other words, spacetime is not treated as a continuous field, but quantized itself—conceived as being comprised of discrete, tiny bits of tightly bound networks of loops called spin networks (or spin foams). Spin networks (for space) and spin foams (for spacetime) are depicted as interconnected points and lines of continuously evolving configurations, the evolution of which have a scale on the order of a Planck length of approximately 10^−35 meters, and recent studies have indicated that the loops might braid together in ways to create the elemental particles of the Standard Model.

The local changes of these discrete configurations is what provides the dynamic framework of space, wherein the sum total of these changes will end up matching the smooth spacetime predictions of general relativity on larger scales. In other words, the entire spin network, with all its nodes and looped lines, is actually space itself. The specific configuration of the spin network in toto is the geometry of space. Or that's the gist of its growing body of theoretical mathematics, which has yet to be completed or demonstrated.

 

[BreezeWood]

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know.

you know.

they turned the religion of antiquity into a macabre nursery rhyme for children - your one of them ...

Well, you know... if my choice is to be like a child or an ass, I'll take the child. I'll live with my choice, you live with yours.

.

Well, you know... if my choice is to be like a child or an ass, I'll take the child. I'll live with my choice, you live with yours.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

you are not the first to ask those questions - then leave them unresolved, child. and imply a profanity where there is none.

 

[diver52]

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know.

you know.

they turned the religion of antiquity into a macabre nursery rhyme for children - your one of them ...

Well, you know... if my choice is to be like a child or an ass, I'll take the child. I'll live with my choice, you live with yours.

.

Well, you know... if my choice is to be like a child or an ass, I'll take the child. I'll live with my choice, you live with yours.

Ok. So God was ticked off at man. What did he have against the chickens. He killed them as well, you know. What did the cows do wrong, and the llamas? And why not do it to the fish? Are fish somehow less sinful than hamsters?

you are not the first to ask those questions - then leave them unresolved, child. and imply a profanity where there is none.

And you are not the first to think arrogance and wisdom are the same thing. Have a good life.