The Confederacy and States' Rights

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin, none of the contemporaries of the Civil War agree with you in their writings. Not one said it was not slavery. They all recognized that slavery and race drove the argument of secession, states' rights, the economies, immigration, the tariff, the territories, etc.

You have conceded in fact because you have posted evidence demonstrating the contemporaries agreed with you.

I have conceded because I've demonstrated that the contemporaries agreed with me? Interesting argument.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I believe I did, but it's kind of hard when you consider a legitimate argument to be "Lysander Spooner hated Lincoln!" (so there!) and Alexander Stephens had the same philosophy as Lincoln regarding blacks.

I mean really...

You mentioned abolitionists having started the whole Colonization trend, and I mentioned that Lysander Spooner, a noted abolitionist, hated Lincoln. You then pointed out that it should be no surprise that someone who advocated violence and slave rebellions would hate Lincoln, when Lincoln himself supported violence and slave rebellions. Then you tried to cast dispersions on my intellect to try and nullify my points rather than actually address the hypocrisy of your statement.

You seem to fail to understand that not all abolitionists were cut from the same thread - and now, in a really stunning blow to your own argument, you are calling Lincoln an even more radical abolitionist than he really was, while at the same time saying he echoed the beliefs of the VP of the confederacy who called slavery the cornerstone of the confederacy.

And the funniest thing is, you don't even know you did it!

No, I'm afraid that's not the case. Lincoln did attempt to incite the slaves to rise up against their masters, which is why he only tried to free the slaves in the Confederacy as opposed to all of the slaves. Did you want to address the hypocrisy of your post mocking Lysander Spooner for advocating slave uprisings and violence when Lincoln was an advocate of both?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Oh, good catch, Kevin, and I fixed it, so you can fix yours as well to stay in tune. Now read the next post and weep.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Oh, good catch, Kevin, and I fixed it, so you can fix yours as well to stay in tune. Now read the next post and weep.

Well actually I have posted evidence. You're simply ignoring it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Let's see what CSA Vice-president Alexander Stephens said about African slavery and what he imputed to Thomas Jefferson about it. "But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right." [Italics and bold are my emphasis].

This is known as Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech." Interesting, isn't it. You can read more at Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens.

Good night all. Kevin, you may spend your time more profitably doing some reading in primary, contemporary sources instead of running around pounding "Sons of the South" nonsense. Please, research what you supposedly believe. We will go through each of the key figures if you insist on defending the indefensible.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let's see what CSA Vice-president Alexander Stephens said about African slavery and what he imputed to Thomas Jefferson about it. "But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right." [Italics and bold are my emphasis].

This is known as Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech." Interesting, isn't it. You can read more at Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens.

Maybe you're unable to read. I don't deny that slavery was a reason that the southern states seceded. It simply wasn't the only reason, and I have posted Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address where he talks about tariffs but not slavery. I have also posted quotes from Abraham Lincoln that state he had no intention of ending slavery and that he even supported an amendment to make it a permanent institution.

 

[paperview]

Let's see what CSA Vice-president Alexander Stephens said about African slavery and what he imputed to Thomas Jefferson about it. "But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right." [Italics and bold are my emphasis].

This is known as Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech." Interesting, isn't it. You can read more at Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens.

Maybe you're unable to read. I don't deny that slavery was a reason that the southern states seceded. It simply wasn't the only reason, and I have posted Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address where he talks about tariffs but not slavery. I have also posted quotes from Abraham Lincoln that state he had no intention of ending slavery and that he even supported an amendment to make it a permanent institution.

Yet! Yet! Lincoln advocated slave uprisings like one of the most radical abolitionists at the time.

(Are you keeping track of this Jake?)
)

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let's see what CSA Vice-president Alexander Stephens said about African slavery and what he imputed to Thomas Jefferson about it. "But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right." [Italics and bold are my emphasis].

This is known as Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech." Interesting, isn't it. You can read more at Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens.

Maybe you're unable to read. I don't deny that slavery was a reason that the southern states seceded. It simply wasn't the only reason, and I have posted Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address where he talks about tariffs but not slavery. I have also posted quotes from Abraham Lincoln that state he had no intention of ending slavery and that he even supported an amendment to make it a permanent institution.

Yet! Yet! Lincoln advocated slave uprisings like one of the most radical abolitionists at the time.

(Are you keeping track of this Jake?)
)

Anything to hurt the Confederacy, not because he believed that the slaves deserved to be free.

 

[paperview]

Maybe you're unable to read. I don't deny that slavery was a reason that the southern states seceded. It simply wasn't the only reason, and I have posted Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address where he talks about tariffs but not slavery. I have also posted quotes from Abraham Lincoln that state he had no intention of ending slavery and that he even supported an amendment to make it a permanent institution.

Yet! Yet! Lincoln advocated slave uprisings like one of the most radical abolitionists at the time.

(Are you keeping track of this Jake?)
)

Anything to hurt the Confederacy, not because he believed that the slaves deserved to be free.

You see, this is where you lose folks who may actually think you know what your talking about.
Lincoln made it clear he was personally against slavery, and anyone who reads enough of his writings knows that, (and I've even posted some very germane quotes here) he also believed he did not have the constitutional power to abolish it. There is a difference.

With every new post, I am convinced you have read very little on the subject, or of Lincoln (except RW snippets).

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yet! Yet! Lincoln advocated slave uprisings like one of the most radical abolitionists at the time.

(Are you keeping track of this Jake?)
)

Anything to hurt the Confederacy, not because he believed that the slaves deserved to be free.

You see, this is where you lose folks who may actually think you know what your talking about.
Lincoln made it clear he was personally against slavery, and anyone who reads enough of his writings knows that, (and I've even posted some very germane quotes here) he also believed he did not have the constitutional power to abolish it. There is a difference.

With every new post, I am convinced you have read very little on the subject, or of Lincoln (except RW snippets).

Lincoln made many contradictory statements, yet his actions seem to support the notion that he did not believe slavery should be ended or equality given to black people.

- Supporting the Corwin Amendment
- Supporting the Illinois Constitution which made it illegal for black people to emigrate to Illinois
- Only freeing those slaves he had no way to actually free
- Supporting attempts to deport all black people out of the United States
- Supported and wanted to strengthen the Fugitive Slave laws
- Opposed black citizenship in Illinois
- Stopped the emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia

 

[paperview]

Anything to hurt the Confederacy, not because he believed that the slaves deserved to be free.

You see, this is where you lose folks who may actually think you know what your talking about.
Lincoln made it clear he was personally against slavery, and anyone who reads enough of his writings knows that, (and I've even posted some very germane quotes here) he also believed he did not have the constitutional power to abolish it. There is a difference.

With every new post, I am convinced you have read very little on the subject, or of Lincoln (except RW snippets).

Lincoln made many contradictory statements, yet his actions seem to support the notion that he did not believe slavery should be ended or equality given to black people.

- Supporting the Corwin Amendment
- Supporting the Illinois Constitution which made it illegal for black people to emigrate to Illinois
- Only freeing those slaves he had no way to actually free
- Supporting attempts to deport all black people out of the United States
- Supported and wanted to strengthen the Fugitive Slave laws
- Opposed black citizenship in Illinois
- Stopped the emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia

Oh Geeze. Lew Rockwell again.

You really need to expand your reading base.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You see, this is where you lose folks who may actually think you know what your talking about.
Lincoln made it clear he was personally against slavery, and anyone who reads enough of his writings knows that, (and I've even posted some very germane quotes here) he also believed he did not have the constitutional power to abolish it. There is a difference.

With every new post, I am convinced you have read very little on the subject, or of Lincoln (except RW snippets).

Lincoln made many contradictory statements, yet his actions seem to support the notion that he did not believe slavery should be ended or equality given to black people.

- Supporting the Corwin Amendment
- Supporting the Illinois Constitution which made it illegal for black people to emigrate to Illinois
- Only freeing those slaves he had no way to actually free
- Supporting attempts to deport all black people out of the United States
- Supported and wanted to strengthen the Fugitive Slave laws
- Opposed black citizenship in Illinois
- Stopped the emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia

Oh Geeze. Lew Rockwell again.

You really need to expand your reading base.

Once again, avoid the issues and try to bring down my legitimacy.

 

[paperview]

Lincoln made many contradictory statements, yet his actions seem to support the notion that he did not believe slavery should be ended or equality given to black people.

- Supporting the Corwin Amendment
- Supporting the Illinois Constitution which made it illegal for black people to emigrate to Illinois
- Only freeing those slaves he had no way to actually free
- Supporting attempts to deport all black people out of the United States
- Supported and wanted to strengthen the Fugitive Slave laws
- Opposed black citizenship in Illinois
- Stopped the emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia

Oh Geeze. Lew Rockwell again.

You really need to expand your reading base.

Once again, avoid the issues and try to bring down my legitimacy.

Again, what you, apparently as a student of Lew, seem to have acquired, is the technique of word play and false inferences with half truths to lead you to false conclusions.

Answer me this: Was Lincoln in favor of the Dred Scott decision?

Yes or no.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Oh Geeze. Lew Rockwell again.

You really need to expand your reading base.

Once again, avoid the issues and try to bring down my legitimacy.

Again, what you, apparently as a student of Lew, seem to have acquired, is the technique of word play and false inferences with half truths to lead you to false conclusions.

Answer me this: Was Lincoln in favor of the Dred Scott decision?

Yes or no.

I don't know off the top of my head and don't care to play into your game by looking it up.

 

[paperview]

Once again, avoid the issues and try to bring down my legitimacy.

Again, what you, apparently as a student of Lew, seem to have acquired, is the technique of word play and false inferences with half truths to lead you to false conclusions.

Answer me this: Was Lincoln in favor of the Dred Scott decision?

Yes or no.

I don't know off the top of my head and don't care to play into your game by looking it up.

And that concludes this debate with manchild who thinks he can maintain cogent, historically acurate arguments about who Lincoln was.

Thank you very much and have a good evening.


Everyone, please tip your waiters.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Again, what you, apparently as a student of Lew, seem to have acquired, is the technique of word play and false inferences with half truths to lead you to false conclusions.

Answer me this: Was Lincoln in favor of the Dred Scott decision?

Yes or no.

I don't know off the top of my head and don't care to play into your game by looking it up.

And that concludes this debate with manchild who thinks he can maintain cogent, historically acurate arguments about who Lincoln was.

Thank you very much and have a good evening.


Everyone, please tip your waiters.

Yes, now try to make it look like I'm the one avoiding an intelligent discussion.

 

[JBeukema]

What would become of the Blacks has no bearing on the right to secede. Do try to stay on-topic.

You see, this is where you lose folks who may actually think you know what your talking about.
Lincoln made it clear he was personally against slavery, and anyone who reads enough of his writings knows that, (and I've even posted some very germane quotes here) he also believed he did not have the constitutional power to abolish it. There is a difference.

With every new post, I am convinced you have read very little on the subject, or of Lincoln (except RW snippets).

Lincoln made many contradictory statements, yet his actions seem to support the notion that he did not believe slavery should be ended or equality given to black people.

- Supporting the Corwin Amendment
- Supporting the Illinois Constitution which made it illegal for black people to emigrate to Illinois
- Only freeing those slaves he had no way to actually free
- Supporting attempts to deport all black people out of the United States
- Supported and wanted to strengthen the Fugitive Slave laws
- Opposed black citizenship in Illinois
- Stopped the emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia

Oh Geeze. Lew Rockwell again.

You really need to expand your reading base.

Have you ever considered addressing Kev's points instead of attacking his sources and repeating the same moronic statements time and again?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The point is this -- the contemporaries thought the slavery was the prime cause of the Civil War.

Whether the South had the right to secede (which I think they did), one towering man of History defied the Confederacy, mouth smashed and knee dropped them, breaking their whiny small-governtment Jeffersonia philosophies forever.

States' rights have been dead officially since 1865 and culturally since the 1960s.

Republican and Democratic parties are big-government parties.

We are never going back to small government unless an apocalyptic event occurs (at least technologically) that will result in the balkanization of the U.S.

 

[editec]

The point is this -- the contemporaries thought the slavery was the prime cause of the Civil War.

Not just contemporaries, but the contemporary LEADERS OF THE TREASON.

Whether the South had the right to secede (which I think they did), one towering man of History defied the Confederacy, mouth smashed and knee dropped them, breaking their whiny small-governtment Jeffersonia philosophies forever.

I think the States do not have the right to secede. the floundering fathers spoke of the ETERNAL UNION throughout the FDERALIST PAPERS.

Nowhere is there any mention of any path leading to a state leaving the Republic.

States' rights have been dead officially since 1865 and culturally since the 1960s.

No, not dead. Southern treason apologists continue to harp on that bankrupted theory to justify the treason of the CSA.

Republican and Democratic parties are big-government parties.

Truth in spade there.

We are never going back to small government unless an apocalyptic event occurs (at least technologically) that will result in the balkanization of the U.S.

Likely true.

 

[Citizen]

Kevin, none of the contemporaries of the Civil War agree with you in their writings. Not one said it was not slavery. They all recognized that slavery and race drove the argument of secession, states' rights, the economies, immigration, the tariff, the territories, etc.

You have conceded in fact because you have posted no evidence demonstrating the contemporaries agreed with you.

Another reason you are incorrect about slavery being the cause of the war of northeren aggression is the simple fact that slavery was never in danger because Lincoln pledged to enforce the fugitive slave law, declared he had no right or intention to interfere with slavery, and supported a new irrevocable constitutional amendment to protect slavery forever.

The real causes of the war of northern aggression was the unjust taxation and expenditure of taxes by the Government of the United States, and the change of the government from a confederated republic to a national sectional despotism.

The South did not need the North because it could buy the goods it needed from Europe, but the North needed the South as a market for Northern goods.

In order to perpetuate his war of Northern aggression, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, ordered the arrested Chief Justice Taney after the Justice' opinion holding the suspension of habeas corpus to be unconditional, replaced the civilian courts with military ones, imprisoned about 14,000 dissidents for varied opposition to the war, and closed about 300 newspapers.

The war between the North and South was a tariff war. The war was further, not for principle, did not touch the question of slavery, but in fact was fueled by the Northern lust for sovereignty.