The cause of global cooling is a global water radiator

[ding]

A number of people here have argued that AGW was actually due to water vapor. And the net effect of clouds on temperature is still not settled science to my knowledge.

I don't think they believed that AGW was due to water vapor because it is likely they don't believe in AGW in the first place. The greenhouse gas effect is a choke. It slows the transfer of energy. It doesn't heat the surface of the planet. It heats the atmosphere.

And yes, the role of water vapor works as a positive (GHG) and a negative (clouds and precipitation). And yes, it is not only not settled it is not well understood and a very long way away from being settled if ever. There's no data record. It's water vapor and clouds. It might as well be a ghost.

 

[Crick]

I don't think they believed that AGW was due to water vapor because it is likely they don't believe in AGW in the first place. The greenhouse gas effect is a choke. It slows the transfer of energy. It doesn't heat the surface of the planet. It heats the atmosphere.

And yes, the role of water vapor works as a positive (GHG) and a negative (clouds and precipitation). And yes, it is not only not settled it is not well understood and a very long way away from being settled if ever. There's no data record. It's water vapor and clouds. It might as well be a ghost.

What do you mean "there's no data record"?

 

[ding]

What do you mean "there's no data record"?

Water vapor in the atmosphere and the amount of cloud cover isn't in the geologic record.

How would they history match that?

 

[ReinyDays]

Circles within circles within circles ... like some kinda climate system or something ... ignore convection at your peril ...

 

[Crick]

Water vapor in the atmosphere and the amount of cloud cover isn't in the geologic record.

How would they history match that?

Water vapor levels are very closely correlated with temperature and thus in ice and sediment cores. Cloud cover is well recorded since the advent of satellite coverage.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020GL090539

 

[ding]

Water vapor levels are very closely correlated with temperature and thus in ice and sediment cores. Cloud cover is well recorded since the advent of satellite coverage.

View attachment 650114

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020GL090539

I see, so what are they measuring in the ice or sediment core that is the proxy for water vapor?

Because the graphs you copied and pasted from your link are simulations, right?

 

[Crick]

I see, so what are they measuring in the ice or sediment core that is the proxy for water vapor?

Because the graphs you posted are simulations/

View attachment 650119

The proxy would be O18. As for the simulations, that's what I get for searching Google for Images. Mea culpa.

 

[ding]

The proxy would be O18.

Are you sure about that? Do you have a link for that?

 

[ding]

As for the simulations, that's what I get for searching Google for Images. Mea culpa.

No worries, but I'm still not convinced there's a water vapor record from the geologic record.

 

[Crick]

This is (imho) subject to debate, and at the very least you and I should be able to agree that these statements are controversial. Furthermore, the statements are not fact, such as the fact that water boils at 100C, but imho they're the product of scant empirical data and a lot of wishful thinking.

They are not controversial at all. They are basic, fundamental science. Every point about water vapor given in my post above is precisely as reliable as the boiling point you provided.

 

[ding]

They are not controversial at all. They are basic, fundamental science. Every point about water vapor given in my post above is precisely as reliable as the boiling point you provided.

Including your belief that water vapor is captured in the geologic record? Cause I still don't believe that is true.

 

[expat_panama]

They are not controversial at all. They are basic, fundamental science. Every point about water vapor given in my post above is precisely as reliable as the boiling point you provided.

What I was referring to was your statements about the ranking of greenhouse gasses, in particular "Water vapor is responsible for 50-60% of greenhouse warming, carbon dioxideI for one-third, the rest from methane, nitroous oxide and several fluorinated gases."

When I did a DuckDuck search for a list of greenhouse gases and their contributions I came up w/ a lot of lists and no two lists agreed. iow, what I found was "controversy".

 

[Crick]

What I was referring to was your statements about the ranking of greenhouse gasses, in particular "Water vapor is responsible for 50-60% of greenhouse warming, carbon dioxideI for one-third, the rest from methane, nitroous oxide and several fluorinated gases."

When I did a DuckDuck search for a list of greenhouse gases and their contributions I came up w/ a lot of lists and no two lists agreed. iow, what I found was "controversy".

Hardly

From Wikipedia:
A greenhouse gas (GHG or GhG) is a gas that absorbs and emits radiant energy within the thermal infrared range, causing the greenhouse effect.[1] The primary greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and ozone (O3). Without greenhouse gases, the average temperature of Earth's surface would be about −18 °C (0 °F),[2] rather than the present average of 15 °C (59 °F).[3][4][5] The atmospheres of Venus, Mars and Titan also contain greenhouse gases.

From NASA
Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxides, and water vapor. (Water vapor, which responds physically or chemically to changes in temperature, is called a "feedback.")

From EPA.gov
Carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxice, fluorinated gases

IPCC via Center for Climat and Energy Solutions
Global Warming Potential and Atmospheric Lifetime for Major Greenhouse Gases
�

Greenhouse gas	Chemical formula	Global Warming Potential, 100-year time horizon	Atmospheric Lifetime (years)
SOURCE​ Fifth Assessment Report (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2014).
Carbon Dioxide	CO2	1	100*
Methane	CH4	25	12
Nitrous Oxide	NO	265	121
Chlorofluorocarbon-12 (CFC-12)	CCl2F2	10,200	100
Hydrofluorocarbon-23 (HFC-23)	CHF3	12,400	222
Sulfur Hexafluoride	SF6	23,500	3,200
Nitrogen Trifluoride	NF3	16,100	500

In case you were confused on this point, chlorofluorocarbon, hydrofluorocarbon, sulfur hexafluoride and nitrogen trifluoride are what the other lists classified as "flurorinated gases".

There is no controversy about which gases are greenhouse gases.

 

[expat_panama]

Hardly

From Wikipedia:
A greenhouse gas (GHG or GhG) is a gas that absorbs and emits radiant energy within the thermal infrared range, causing the greenhouse effect.[1] The primary greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and ozone (O3). Without greenhouse gases, the average temperature of Earth's surface would be about −18 °C (0 °F),[2] rather than the present average of 15 °C (59 °F).[3][4][5] The atmospheres of Venus, Mars and Titan also contain greenhouse gases.

From NASA
Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxides, and water vapor. (Water vapor, which responds physically or chemically to changes in temperature, is called a "feedback.")

From EPA.gov
Carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxice, fluorinated gases

IPCC via Center for Climat and Energy Solutions
Global Warming Potential and Atmospheric Lifetime for Major Greenhouse Gases
�

Greenhouse gas	Chemical formula	Global Warming Potential, 100-year time horizon	Atmospheric Lifetime (years)
SOURCE​ Fifth Assessment Report (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2014).
Carbon Dioxide	CO2	1	100*
Methane	CH4	25	12
Nitrous Oxide	NO	265	121
Chlorofluorocarbon-12 (CFC-12)	CCl2F2	10,200	100
Hydrofluorocarbon-23 (HFC-23)	CHF3	12,400	222
Sulfur Hexafluoride	SF6	23,500	3,200
Nitrogen Trifluoride	NF3	16,100	500

In case you were confused on this point, chlorofluorocarbon, hydrofluorocarbon, sulfur hexafluoride and nitrogen trifluoride are what the other lists classified as "flurorinated gases".

There is no controversy about which gases are greenhouse gases.

We were talking about not only which gasses are greenhouse gasses, but also the ranking and how much each contributes as you stated above. Your quote from Wikipedia listed water vapor as the first and your second source listed water vapor fourth. The IPCC lists gasses that are not mentioned elsewhere.

OK, so you don't see a controversy and I do. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, it just shows that the issue of whether the sources agree is also controversial.

 

[Crick]

We were talking about not only which gasses are greenhouse gasses, but also the ranking and how much each contributes as you stated above. Your quote from Wikipedia listed water vapor as the first and your second source listed water vapor fourth. The IPCC lists gasses that are not mentioned elsewhere.

OK, so you don't see a controversy and I do. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, it just shows that the issue of whether the sources agree is also controversial.

You should read a little more. Water vapor has the widest absorption band of any of the greenhouse gases. But, because it is precipitable and the others are not, water vapor acts purely as a feedback mechanism to the other GHGs. That is why some sources list it separately.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Warmer oceans increases water vapor that increases greenhouse effect, release more methane to multiply warming & melting of ice to increase sea levels.

Here in Missouri it seems the increased clouds reflect sunlight during hot summer sun, but hold heat during night. The west is burning up.

Global warming greatly benefits big oil exporters Canada & Russia with increased farm land & less freezing during winters. Other areas of the earth will burn or flood.

IN a word NO!

This is why the modeling fails each time. The heat rarely makes it into the oceans. Here is why.
There are always two air Columbs in any micro circulation. These two Columbs interact causing friction eddy's within the flows. (circular patterns) within these evaporation occurs releasing the heat to space. The point here is the temperature of the water when that heat is released. The length of the IR wave can not be reabsorbed by the water and is reflected.

Sorry Charlie... it rarely reaches the ground warmer. This is also why we can never have an atmospheric hot spot. It simply cannot occur with water vapor in our atmosphere.

Here is information on Super Cells, You must remember that every cloud causes up and down drafts, not just storm clouds. Supercell Structure and Dynamics

 

[Billy_Bob]

No worries, but I'm still not convinced there's a water vapor record from the geologic record.

There isn't one. I've been doing research now for about 15 years and it does not exist. People have tried but all of the proxies have been shown poor due to other influences.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

There isn't one. I've been doing research now for about 15 years and it does not exist. People have tried but all of the proxies have been shown poor due to other influences.

Are you published yet?

 

[expat_panama]

You should read a little more. Water vapor has the widest absorption band of any of the greenhouse gases. But, because it is precipitable and the others are not, water vapor acts purely as a feedback mechanism to the other GHGs. That is why some sources list it separately.

We started w/ your saying that water vapor was the worse greenhouse gas (60%?), then to your posting conflicting tables one showing water vapor as the worst and another the least, and now you're saying it's all my fault because I don't what, read enough?

How about I thank u for your time and effort and we leave it at that.

 

[Crick]

We started w/ your saying that water vapor was the worse greenhouse gas (60%?), then to your posting conflicting tables one showing water vapor as the worst and another the least, and now you're saying it's all my fault because I don't what, read enough?

How about I thank u for your time and effort and we leave it at that.

No one ever said it produced the least warming. It is separated by some sources because of the widely known fact that it acts purely as a feedback mechanism due to its precipitable nature. And that you would have learned had you read a little more of the links I posted. It couldn't have been more than a single sentence away from the point at which you learned it was listed separately. Far more often than I should, I also fail to read all the details and end up sticking my foot in my mouth. So, let me make the suggestion that ALL of us should read more and pay attention to the details.