Debate Now The Case for Reparations Goes Beyond Slavery....Pt.2

[IM2]

My mind is not entirely made up on this because there are a number of severely disadvantaged groups in this country who would not be owed reparations yet are stuck in dangerous, run down communities with crap schools and limited options, along with black people. IMO, at this point, this should be something seperate from reparation.

When it comes to reparations to provide economic equality to black Americans, though, it seems clear that a rising tide does not lift all boats, at least not to an equal level. As I see it, reparations are partly an acknowledgement of wrongs, and partly an attempt to put blacks on an equal footing, economically. Unemployment for blacks was the lowest it had ever been prior to the Covid shutdowns, but it was still double that of white Americans. Although blacks have achieved a lot of gains in education, white Americans still on average have 10 times the wealth of black Americans. While grants and programs to alleviate poverty for all are a great idea, they will not take care of that stubborn problem of economic inequality. Only investment specifically in black communities can do that. Or so the economists say.

Here's a couple of articles that kick around different ideas for what reparations might look like and how they might work. Just for general information.

Why we need reparations for Black Americans

Rashawn Ray and Andre Perry outline the history of reparations in the United States, missed opportunities to redress the racial wealth gap, and specific details for a viable reparations package for Black Americans.

www.brookings.edu

What Reparations for Slavery Might Look Like in 2019 (Published 2019)

The idea of economic amends for past injustices and persistent disparities is getting renewed attention. Here are some formulas for achieving the aim.

www.nytimes.com

Good articles! I recognize one from what IM2 quoted from. I have to think about this.

I thought that Brookings article sounded familiar.....lol
There are a lot of ideas.
I'm one of those people who keeps looking around the corner, saying "okay--how, specifically, do we do this?" and so far I'm full of questions because enough particulars haven't been provided. We haven't zeroed in on a plan.
I'm guessing IM is focused on persuading people that reparations, as a general concept, is a good idea. I'm already convinced, so maybe I don't need to be here. To me, the question is HOW. Because if I can't see how it is going to work on the ground, I can't really get behind a plan. And I don't think we've gotten that far yet.

That's why I invited you. I wanted a reasonable discussion without all that I didn't own anyone and all the usual mess. I want also to look at some issues that provide a backdrop of the damage to black communities and individuals in order for us to understand that the issue is far past slavery and does impact us today. You are a school teacher which means you are highly educated and stay continually educated. So you are going to want more depth and hopefully we can get their.

I do have a comprehensive plan that I put on paper 23 years ago called Operation Rebuild. I will discuss this here after we talk about the Kerner and EPI reports.

 

[IM2]

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There are way too many misguided and ignorant notions about reparations. Reparations would be demanded from the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT for policies enacted by the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. The policies created by the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT were not done to exclude single individuals, nor did single individuals decide to implement the policies by themselves.

The rules-This is a policy discussion. We will discuss studies/laws/policies and the implications of such on black communities. Nothing else.

Kat
katsteve2012
NewsVine_Mariyam
MarcATL
Asclepias
flacaltenn
Crepitus
Dont Taz Me Bro
Erinwltr
OldLady
Paul Essen
Meister
Coyote

OK I'll do this again.
History of reparations in the United States
Reparations—a system of redress for egregious injustices—are not foreign to the United States. Native Americans have received land and billions of dollars for various benefits and programs for being forcibly exiled from their native lands. For Japanese Americans, $1.5 billion was paid to those who were interned during World War II. Additionally, the United States, via the Marshall Plan, helped to ensure that Jews received reparations for the Holocaust, including making various investments over time. In 1952, West Germany agreed to pay 3.45 billion Deutsche Marks to Holocaust survivors.

Black Americans are the only group that has not received reparations for state-sanctioned racial discrimination, while slavery afforded some white families the ability to accrue tremendous wealth. And, we must note that American slavery was particularly brutal. About 15 percent of the enslaved shipped from Western Africa died during transport. The enslaved were regularly beaten and lynched for frivolous infractions. Slavery also disrupted families as one in three marriages were split up and one in five children were separated from their parents. The case for reparations can be made on economic, social, and moral grounds. The United States had multiple opportunities to atone for slavery—each a missed chance to make the American Dream a reality—but has yet to undertake significant action.

Missed policy opportunities to atone for slavery with reparations
40 Acres and a Mule

The first major opportunity that the United States had and where it should have atoned for slavery was right after the Civil War. Union leaders including General William Sherman concluded that each Black family should receive 40 acres. Sherman signed Field Order 15 and allocated 400,000 acres of confiscated Confederate land to Black families. Additionally, some families were to receive mules left over from the war, hence 40 acres and a mule.

Yet, after President Abraham Lincoln’s assassination, President Andrew Johnson reversed Field Order 15 and returned land back to former slave owners. Instead of giving Blacks the means to support themselves, the federal government empowered former enslavers. For example, in Washington D.C., slave owners were actually paid reparations for lost property—the formally enslaved. This practice was also common in nearby states. Many Black Americans with limited work options returned as sharecroppers to till the same land for the very slave owners to whom they were once enslaved. Slave owners not only made money off the chattel enslavement of Black Americans, but they then made money multiple times over off the land that the formerly enslaved had no choice but to work.

The New Deal

There’s never a bad time to do what’s morally right, but the United States has had prime opportunities to atone for slavery. In the 1930s, the United States was reeling from the 1929 stock market crash and was firmly engulfed in the Great Depression. The Franklin Roosevelt administration implemented a series of policies as part of his New Deal legislation, estimated to cost roughly $50 billion then, to catapult the country out of depression. Current estimates price the New Deal at about $50 trillion.

Two particular policies of the New Deal fell short in redressing American’s racial wrongs—the G.I. Bill and Social Security. Though white and Black Americans fought in WWII, Black veterans could not redeem their post-war benefits like their white peers. While the G.I. Bill was mandated federally, it was implemented locally. The presence of racial housing covenants and redlining among local municipalities prohibited Blacks from utilizing federal benefits. White soldiers were afforded the opportunity to build wealth by sending themselves and their children to college and by obtaining housing and small business grants.

Regarding Social Security, two key professions that would have improved equity in America were excluded from the legislation—domestic and farm workers. These omissions effectively excluded 60 percent of Blacks across the U.S. and 75 percent in southern states who worked in these occupations. Roosevelt bargained these exclusionary provisions in the legislation on the backs of Black veterans and workers in order to propel mostly white America out of the Great Depression.

There are other policies and practices that contributed to racial wealth gap. Government-sanctioned discrimination related to the 1862 Homestead Act, redlining, restrictive covenants, and convict leasing blocked Blacks from the ability to gain wealth at similar rates as whites. Separate from slavery, damages should be awarded to Black people who were harmed by these policies and practices.

Why we need reparations for Black Americans

Rashawn Ray and Andre Perry outline the history of reparations in the United States, missed opportunities to redress the racial wealth gap, and specific details for a viable reparations package for Black Americans.

www.brookings.edu

Pretty depressing picture of the past -- but accurate in facts.. Some of the assertions however, aren't that clear..

Trying to reparate while the dishonor and offenses ARE STILL ACCUMULATING just isn't practical.. At the time of New Deal -- it would be over 40 years before the FUNDAMENTAL govt issues with Civil Rights would begin to be resolved. So damages were ACCRUING faster than a one time payment during the New Deal would have fixed..

Similar logical failings on the GI bill housing issues. The war itself was an awakening of racial disparity and justice. But it took another decade or so for that to sink in because of all the post war trauma that had to be resolved. Main point on GI bill is that it should NEVER have been considered as reparations, because those payments were DUE AND PAYABLE at time of discharge for service and valor. Would NEVER be reparations beyond the service for which it was awarded.. Reparations would be in EXCESS of those benefits..

Housing covenants still linger today, but are now unenforceable. And in most of these cases, its ALL COMPLETELY GOVERNMENT failures to "do the right thing" not a collective debt from the general public who then and now -- have little REAL effect on political reform because of the priorities of politicians and parties...

These are excuses flacaltenn. The government made the laws and you cannot excuse this with your attempt to try separating the government from the general public.

You didn't read or did not understand any of the points I made about the TIMING of reparations with respect to the comments in the OP about the "new deal" or WW2 GI benefits...

You reply just repeats the OBVIOUS that I wrote to you.. That GOVERNMENT remained racist in America for 100 years AFTER the Civil War... You cannot "pay the bill for damages" while a HUNDRED YEARS of damages are STILL ACCRUING !!!!

And I told you that this government neglect of immorality is NOT the people's responsibility because the GOVERNMENT stopped being responsive to the people decades ago...

Learn to understand that I don't miss anything you say. So when the day comes that government is not run by people let me know. Damages can be paid at any time and as the OP showed, the government missed several chances to get the job done.

So you're telling me that GI bill benefits for soldiers WOULD have been a form of reparations?? Nope. Reparations would ALWAYS BE above and beyond those awards for service that EVERYONE received that served..

Same with the New Deal example.. Timing was right because the Govt would be RACIST for another 100 years... Neither of two pass logic and reason...

Try answering WHY you disagree with that analysis...

I think you spend too much time trying to tell me how things that worked for others can't work for blacks. Japanese got 25,000 each in a check and that did not hurt them. Reparations can be done in any form and had blacks been given equal access to the GI Bill many things would have been equalized.

You look for every excuse to deny racism. I attended a school with one of the best engineering programs in the country. One of my childhood friends got a degree in Arch E. The engineering field for years discriminated against blacks. So why would a black person get into great debt to earn a degree in a field where we won't get a job?

Now try not using the standard white argument of how you are logical but the black person isn't . A logical argument in this matter includes the assessment of the impact of racism on blacks not denying it at every turn.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'll say this generally - I disagree with the claim that we've paid reparations to Native Americans, we haven't. The poverty rate for Native Americans is 24% compared to 22% for blacks. If reparations was supposed to help that, it failed miserably. We have not reparations for our treatment of Native Americans.

The government pays reparations to native Americans annually. It is a pittance and it should be much, much more. That is if you can actually configure a price for what was done to them.

Even WORSE -- the US govt has RAIDED the "Indian Trust Fund".. Which was THEIR MONEY from resources mined and harvested from Indian LANDS !!!! It's GONE.. That's what they were "PAYING" the Indians from.. Their OWN money.. Now we have to have China finance debt to pay the Indians back... ALL OF US -- you included... Because the US Govt MISMANAGED the "trust fund" as they have with the Soc Sec Trust Fund..

Okay. So you're saying we can't afford it. And even if we could, the government would screw it up. That's part of why the reparations (actually it was called a "Settlement," not reparations), to the Maine tribes worked fairly well. The government had nothing to do with it except handing over the money (except very broad stipulations that a certain amount of the money would be spent on purchasing land). The tribes, who had all the information and knew what needed to be done, took the cash and used it.

That's why I thought some of the organizations already working to better the black community would have a better more effective handle on what would do the most good than individuals checks.

That worked well because a specific GOAL was specified.. If I knew the exact plan, and it had a chance of actually being LASTING achievement -- I'd be inclined to consider it...

 

[flacaltenn]

The government is the party responsible. And we all pay native americans reparations. Reparations don't hurt anyone and blacks are not the first or only group to ask for reparations. Why all this backlash for asking for something other groups have received?

Reparations don't come from the government.. They come "from the people" and I like I said it "HURTS" folks other than nasty white racists.. LIKE Asians or Hispanics or literally ANYONE whose families came here since about the 1960s... As far as "other groups receiving", the Indians were mostly getting THEIR OWN MONEY back thru the Indian Trust Fund, which I told you, the Feds stole from.. But now with legalized tribal gambling (funded by a lot of white people) their gonna be the ONLY financially sound nation between the Atlantic and Pacific.. LOL !!!!

AND YET -- with all that cash flowing from the casinos, it's caused internal warring within the tribes and NOT MUCH in terms of improving life on most reservations.. It's NOT MONEY alone, that will "fix" the Indian nations..

 

[flacaltenn]

My mind is not entirely made up on this because there are a number of severely disadvantaged groups in this country who would not be owed reparations yet are stuck in dangerous, run down communities with crap schools and limited options, along with black people. IMO, at this point, this should be something seperate from reparation.

When it comes to reparations to provide economic equality to black Americans, though, it seems clear that a rising tide does not lift all boats, at least not to an equal level. As I see it, reparations are partly an acknowledgement of wrongs, and partly an attempt to put blacks on an equal footing, economically. Unemployment for blacks was the lowest it had ever been prior to the Covid shutdowns, but it was still double that of white Americans. Although blacks have achieved a lot of gains in education, white Americans still on average have 10 times the wealth of black Americans. While grants and programs to alleviate poverty for all are a great idea, they will not take care of that stubborn problem of economic inequality. Only investment specifically in black communities can do that. Or so the economists say.

Here's a couple of articles that kick around different ideas for what reparations might look like and how they might work. Just for general information.

Why we need reparations for Black Americans

Rashawn Ray and Andre Perry outline the history of reparations in the United States, missed opportunities to redress the racial wealth gap, and specific details for a viable reparations package for Black Americans.

www.brookings.edu

What Reparations for Slavery Might Look Like in 2019 (Published 2019)

The idea of economic amends for past injustices and persistent disparities is getting renewed attention. Here are some formulas for achieving the aim.

www.nytimes.com

Good articles! I recognize one from what IM2 quoted from. I have to think about this.

I thought that Brookings article sounded familiar.....lol
There are a lot of ideas.
I'm one of those people who keeps looking around the corner, saying "okay--how, specifically, do we do this?" and so far I'm full of questions because enough particulars haven't been provided. We haven't zeroed in on a plan.
I'm guessing IM is focused on persuading people that reparations, as a general concept, is a good idea. I'm already convinced, so maybe I don't need to be here. To me, the question is HOW. Because if I can't see how it is going to work on the ground, I can't really get behind a plan. And I don't think we've gotten that far yet.

That's why I invited you. I wanted a reasonable discussion without all that I didn't own anyone and all the usual mess. I want also to look at some issues that provide a backdrop of the damage to black communities and individuals in order for us to understand that the issue is far past slavery and does impact us today. You are a school teacher which means you are highly educated and stay continually educated. So you are going to want more depth and hopefully we can get their.

I do have a comprehensive plan that I put on paper 23 years ago called Operation Rebuild. I will discuss this here after we talk about the Kerner and EPI reports.

Before you launch those other papers, can we all just AGREE that the history you laid in the OP is factually correct?? Really don't need to wade thru that..

I pointed out that the history is awful and true, but the ANALYSIS of history and events is sorely lacking in logical consistency and reason.. I brought up several points on that, but you refused to discuss them.. So ANALYSIS by anyone -- isn't gonna get us to the PROPOSALS and MATH behind reparation requests..

There's been 160 years since 40 acres and mule (a decent proposal) and I've YET TO SEE

1) The number of qualified recipients and what those qualifications are..
2) The FORM of payment or the amount limited to individuals or grants.
3) The LENGTH of time CERTAIN beyond which this expires.

And most IMPORTANTLY
4) An unbiased 3rd party assessment of WHAT EXACT IMPROVEMENTS in black life in America are gonna be if the plan is activated.. Which means things like rising from poverty, less crime, better education results, self-acheived income security -- etc...

This is REALLY all I need to form an opinion.. I'd be SHOCKED if 160 yrs hasn't produced ACTUAL PROPOSALS for reparations...

Where are they man???? WITHOUT the history, justification and tortured "analysis" of that factual history...

 

[IM2]

What plan did japanese have when they got 25,000 per? And why do whites feel the need to believe that we don't have a plan?

When blacks were freed from slavery, a system where it was illegal to learn how to read and write, they understood that land acquisition was vital. Some scraped together funds and bought land other were share croppers. So why today considering that King bought up the issue of reparations before he was murdered and blacks have been trying to get a reparations bill passed in congress since 1989, that there is no one on ready with a plan?

Reagan decided the japanese deserved payments. When that happened, I was in college and there were not all these requirements, concerns, confusion and trepidation. Why now?

 

[flacaltenn]

and had blacks been given equal access to the GI Bill many things would have been equalized.

And once again, the GI BILL was NOT reparations. Didn't GET TO the majority of black America.. Was a THANKS for service for ANYBODY that served...

AND there was STILL 3 DECADES of racial injustice to be PAID FOR !!!! Would you have come back in 2000 for reparations for the years 1946 to 2000???? Lemme pull a Jesse Jackson so might understand what I'm telling you here...

You can not REPARATE -- while you STILL DISCRIMINATE...

You keep on repeating this faulty analysis that you read and push, but won't tell me why this post is wrong..

 

[flacaltenn]

What plan did japanese have when they got 25,000 per? And why do whites feel the need to believe that we don't have a plan?

The Japanese as AMERICANS were doing pretty well before the war.. Didn't HAVE a 150 history of slavery, discrimination in America TO MAKE UP FOR !!!! Thus, it's a simple calculation of how long they were interned and what they lost in terms of wages..

When you claim MULTI generations retardation of wealth, that's FAR more complicated to assess the amounts and TARGET THEM at some LONG LASTING improvements..

Japanese would just return to society with their OWN WEALTH mostly intact.. Was NOT confiscated by the govt,, So the future improvements part was NOT in play...

 

[flacaltenn]

Just asked you if we can skip to the plan(s)...

 

[flacaltenn]

You look for every excuse to deny racism. I attended a school with one of the best engineering programs in the country. One of my childhood friends got a degree in Arch E. The engineering field for years discriminated against blacks. So why would a black person get into great debt to earn a degree in a field where we won't get a job?

Discrimination TODAY is against white Americans in Engineering.. Schools are FULL of "full pay:" foreign students and professors... Schools would rather take rich Saudis, Korean, Chinese, Japanese and Indian students, then deal with grants, loans, discounts.. So BOTH races have competition there.. Also because American kids lost interest in Engineering when the space program died and they got everything they ever wanted in one cell phone.. They have no idea of how much there is yet to be designed...

As far as your friend -- what DECADE was that? NOW companies CLAMOR to hire minorities into engineering jobs,.. That problem is FIXED.. The NEW problem is they cant GET black engineering students so they have to fill H.R., Accounting, Legal and other cubbies with black employees..

What does this really have to do reparations for PAST injustices???

 

[IM2]

The government is the party responsible. And we all pay native americans reparations. Reparations don't hurt anyone and blacks are not the first or only group to ask for reparations. Why all this backlash for asking for something other groups have received?

Reparations don't come from the government.. They come "from the people" and I like I said it "HURTS" folks other than nasty white racists.. LIKE Asians or Hispanics or literally ANYONE whose families came here since about the 1960s... As far as "other groups receiving", the Indians were mostly getting THEIR OWN MONEY back thru the Indian Trust Fund, which I told you, the Feds stole from.. But now with legalized tribal gambling (funded by a lot of white people) their gonna be the ONLY financially nation between the Atlantic and Pacific..

AND YET -- with all that cash flowing from the casinos, it's caused internal warring within the tribes and NOT MUCH in terms of improving life on most reservations.. It's NOT MONEY alone, that will "fix" the Indian nations..

Look flacaltenn you can stop with the libertarian theoretical view. The GOVERNMENT has provided reparations to other and all the kind if crap you're talking wasn't talked. I believe you might want to refresh your knowledge of Indian trusts. Blacks paid reparations for descendants of confederate soldiers and for the japanese. You keep trying to make excuses because you believe some idiocy about somebody trying to hurt whites. Again you are unable to conceived the oain continuing white racism has put on us. You seem to fall into the dumb ass white belief that we're demanding money for nothing and checks for free. If you lived 1 year black, you would understand just how foolish such a belief is.

If find it funny how the people who took the most money by any means they could have lectures to people on what money can't do. The root cause of the Native American trouble is the same as it is for blacks, white racism. They live in huge poverty but the people who stole their land have the nerve to say the things you have just said. Take the weekend to read the Kerner Report and the 2018 report from the Economic Policy Institute. We're going to start talking about effects of policies and why the argument for reparations is valid on Monday.

http://www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/docs/kerner.pdf

50 years after the Kerner Commission: African Americans are better off in many ways but are still disadvantaged by racial inequality

The 1968 Kerner Commission report pulled together a comprehensive array of data on the specific economic and social inequities confronting African Americans at that time. How have things changed (or not) for black Americans in the 50 years since?

www.epi.org

reparation
[ˌrepəˈrāSH(ə)n]

NOUN
reparations (plural noun)

1. the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.
   "the courts required a convicted offender to make financial reparation to his victim"
   synonyms:
   amends · restitution · redress · compensation · recompense · repayment · atonement · indemnification · indemnity · damages · solatium
   • (reparations)
     the compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state.
     "the Treaty of Versailles imposed heavy reparations and restrictions on Germany"
2. archaic
   the action of repairing something.

 

[IM2]

You look for every excuse to deny racism. I attended a school with one of the best engineering programs in the country. One of my childhood friends got a degree in Arch E. The engineering field for years discriminated against blacks. So why would a black person get into great debt to earn a degree in a field where we won't get a job?

Discrimination TODAY is against white Americans in Engineering.. Schools are FULL of "full pay:" foreign students and professors... Schools would rather take rich Saudis and Indian students, then deal with grants, loans, discounts.. So BOTH races have competition there.. Also because American kids lost interest in Engineering when the space program died and they got everything they ever wanted in one cell phone.. They have no idea of how much there is yet to be designed...

As far as your friend -- what DECADE was that? NOW companies CLAMOR to hire minorities into engineering jobs,.. That problem is FIXED.. The NEW problem is they cant GET black engineering students so they have to fill H.R., Accounting, Legal and other cubbies with black employees..

What does this really have to do reparations for PAST injustices???

Bullshit. It doesn't matter when I went to college. I live in a college town. Everywhere I have lived has had at least 1 university.


Employed black scientists and engineers, as a percentage of selected occupations: 2015

Occupation	Percent
Computer system analysts	7.8
Engineers	4.3
Physical and related scientists	3.9
Life scientists	2.5

nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/occupation/blacks.cfm

73.9% of Civil engineers are White (Non-Hispanic), making that the most common race or ethnicity in the occupation. Representing 10.3% of Civil engineers, Asian (Non-Hispanic) is the second most common race or ethnicity in this occupation.

Civil engineers | Data USA

Civil engineers are most often employed by the Architectural, engineering & related services industry. The average yearly wage for Civil engineers was $91,360 in 2016. The top 3 most similar occupations to Civil engineers by wage are Computer programmers, Industrial production managers, and...

datausa.io

.

You are not being discriminated against when you are 74 percent of the workforce.

 

[flacaltenn]

You keep trying to make excuses because you believe some idiocy about somebody trying to hurt whites.

I bring that up because YOU asserted it was "butt hurt whites ONLY" holding back reparations.. And from discussing with you for awhile, I tend to BELIEVE -- that you believe the intent IS to punish only white people for injustices...

Again you are unable to conceived the oain continuing white racism has put on us. You seem to fall into the dumb ass white belief that we're demanding money for nothing and checks for free.

Actually, you're not reading my posts.. Just copped to ACCEPTING the justifications and the factual history. But like any "business proposal", I want to see the NUMBERS and PLAN, before I fully invest in it.. And I MIGHT.. Because all the govt dependency DOES have to end and LOGICALLY and FINANCIALLY -- it would be a win for all of us if it did...

You needn't treat me as a hostile here and constantly misrepresent my interests here... I'm AM trying to find a plan that MAKES sense. And we're not gonna there without the 4 items I listed tonight above...

 

[flacaltenn]

You look for every excuse to deny racism. I attended a school with one of the best engineering programs in the country. One of my childhood friends got a degree in Arch E. The engineering field for years discriminated against blacks. So why would a black person get into great debt to earn a degree in a field where we won't get a job?

Discrimination TODAY is against white Americans in Engineering.. Schools are FULL of "full pay:" foreign students and professors... Schools would rather take rich Saudis and Indian students, then deal with grants, loans, discounts.. So BOTH races have competition there.. Also because American kids lost interest in Engineering when the space program died and they got everything they ever wanted in one cell phone.. They have no idea of how much there is yet to be designed...

As far as your friend -- what DECADE was that? NOW companies CLAMOR to hire minorities into engineering jobs,.. That problem is FIXED.. The NEW problem is they cant GET black engineering students so they have to fill H.R., Accounting, Legal and other cubbies with black employees..

What does this really have to do reparations for PAST injustices???

Bullshit. It doesn't matter when I went to college. I live in a college town. Everywhere I have lived has had at least 1 university.


Employed black scientists and engineers, as a percentage of selected occupations: 2015

Occupation	Percent
Computer system analysts	7.8
Engineers	4.3
Physical and related scientists	3.9
Life scientists	2.5

nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/occupation/blacks.cfm

73.9% of Civil engineers are White (Non-Hispanic), making that the most common race or ethnicity in the occupation. Representing 10.3% of Civil engineers, Asian (Non-Hispanic) is the second most common race or ethnicity in this occupation.

Civil engineers | Data USA

Civil engineers are most often employed by the Architectural, engineering & related services industry. The average yearly wage for Civil engineers was $91,360 in 2016. The top 3 most similar occupations to Civil engineers by wage are Computer programmers, Industrial production managers, and...

datausa.io

.

You are not being discriminated against when you are 74 percent of the workforce.

You can't GET A JOB in engineering without COMMITTING to STUDYING and interning in engineering.. Those numbers mean NOTHING in terms of racism...

Jesse Jackson came to Silicon THREE TIMES while I was there to shake down deep pockets for guilt money about being "so white"... He SHOULD have been shaking down the UNIVERSITIES TO PROVIDE engineers.. Told him twice in Op Eds while he was there I would GUARANTEE placing a train load of them..

 

[flacaltenn]

You look for every excuse to deny racism. I attended a school with one of the best engineering programs in the country. One of my childhood friends got a degree in Arch E. The engineering field for years discriminated against blacks. So why would a black person get into great debt to earn a degree in a field where we won't get a job?

Discrimination TODAY is against white Americans in Engineering.. Schools are FULL of "full pay:" foreign students and professors... Schools would rather take rich Saudis and Indian students, then deal with grants, loans, discounts.. So BOTH races have competition there.. Also because American kids lost interest in Engineering when the space program died and they got everything they ever wanted in one cell phone.. They have no idea of how much there is yet to be designed...

As far as your friend -- what DECADE was that? NOW companies CLAMOR to hire minorities into engineering jobs,.. That problem is FIXED.. The NEW problem is they cant GET black engineering students so they have to fill H.R., Accounting, Legal and other cubbies with black employees..

What does this really have to do reparations for PAST injustices???

Bullshit. It doesn't matter when I went to college. I live in a college town. Everywhere I have lived has had at least 1 university.


Employed black scientists and engineers, as a percentage of selected occupations: 2015

Occupation	Percent
Computer system analysts	7.8
Engineers	4.3
Physical and related scientists	3.9
Life scientists	2.5

nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/occupation/blacks.cfm

73.9% of Civil engineers are White (Non-Hispanic), making that the most common race or ethnicity in the occupation. Representing 10.3% of Civil engineers, Asian (Non-Hispanic) is the second most common race or ethnicity in this occupation.

Civil engineers | Data USA

Civil engineers are most often employed by the Architectural, engineering & related services industry. The average yearly wage for Civil engineers was $91,360 in 2016. The top 3 most similar occupations to Civil engineers by wage are Computer programmers, Industrial production managers, and...

datausa.io

.

You are not being discriminated against when you are 74 percent of the workforce.

As for whites filling Civil Engineering, that's NOT really why Saudis, Asians, fill the engineering schools. They are here for the cutting edge RESEARCH and knowledge in OTHER areas, their kids cant get at home.. Go look at the faculty names for an Electrical or Biomedical Engineering dept at a University that specializes in Engineering..

 

[flacaltenn]

Hey IM2.. I think our sticking point here is that you BELIEVE the best way to SELL a reparations plan is to make it about "white guilt".. That would have maybe flown 50 or 60 years ago, but NOW today, even tho I'm appalled at the history and the past, it's not GUILT that's gonna motivate me or other people who are looking at it from an efficacy and problem solving point of view..

There's a problem.. There ya go.. Don't need to expound on that.. Tell me what the future LOOKS LIKE with a particular plan of action... THAT'S what's gonna motivate people to get behind you on this... SELL IT BABY !!!!

You don't actually believe that racial accommodation and normalization is IMPOSSIBLE -- DO YOU? And that unless whites are frozen in guilt for stuff they never did -- and feel some PAIN -- that we can't move forward on improving race relations? Are you SCARED that something/someone MIGHT FIX all that?

 

[OldLady]

4) An unbiased 3rd party assessment of WHAT EXACT IMPROVEMENTS in black life in America are gonna be if the plan is activated.. Which means things like rising from poverty, less crime, better education results, self-acheived income security -- etc...

These are long term goals. The articles we've seen that show improvements in employment, education, etc. compare the situation from the 1960's to now. You and I will be long gone by the time real "evidence" is shown that these investments work. I predict there will be regular bitch fests about how "this isn't helping" every couple of years. But think about it. Getting a good enough K-12 education to prepare you for engineering degrees in college take how long? 12 years. Then your 4-5 years in college for engineering (or is it longer). Accumulating wealth involves one generation handing on a nest egg to the next generation. That also takes time.

I think we have enough "evidence" of what programs, generally, do to improve the quality of life for our people. It's almost "common knowledge" at this point. So I'm not sure your #4 is necessary on an in-depth level, anyway. People who are opposed to reparations will just use it to argue endlessly. Like we hear when the battling economists "predict" the outcomes of tax changes to the budget.

 

[OldLady]

So why today considering that King bought up the issue of reparations before he was murdered and blacks have been trying to get a reparations bill passed in congress since 1989, that there is no one on ready with a plan?

From the NYT, last month (good article, if you have access):

Representative John Conyers, who died in 2019, was a long-serving Democrat from Michigan and a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus. He introduced a bill on the study of reparations every year beginning in 1989 and said he would “do so until it’s passed into law.” (He did, until he resigned in 2017.) For years, the prospect of the bill becoming law seemed quite distant. Gallup polling has shown that more than two-thirds of Americans oppose reparations. President Barack Obama said in 2016 that he considered the idea impractical.

Slowly, though, the notion has gained political traction. Sheila Jackson Lee, the Democratic congresswoman from Texas, reintroduced Mr. Conyers’s bill that would establish a commission to study the impact of slavery and make recommendations for its “apology and compensation” in 2019, and Senator Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey, introduced companion legislation in the Senate. Last year on Juneteenth, an annual holiday commemorating the ending of slavery, a subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee held a first-of-its-kind hearing on reparations...

While the political push has long come from veteran black lawmakers, white candidates are discussing the issue of reparations too. At a recent Senate primary debate between Senator Ed Markey and Representative Joe Kennedy, both the Massachusetts Democrats said they were open to the idea. Mr. Kennedy said in an interview that the conversation should “go beyond debate over a study” of the issue, where the legislative focus has remained for decades.
How Reparations for Slavery Became a 2020 Campaign Issue

It sounds, IM, as though Congress has no plan yet. They can't seem to get support for even a study, which is step one. Although--a glimmer of light--there was a hearing last year about having a study, on June 19, 2019:

Wednesday’s historic hearing, the first time Congress has considered a bill, H.R. 40, that would create a commission to develop proposals to address the lingering effects of slavery and consider a “national apology” for the harm it has caused.
The sometimes raucous session before a subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee lasted nearly three and a half hours and dug into the darkest corners of the nation’s history, exposing the bitter cultural and ideological divides in Washington and beyond.

At Historic Hearing, House Panel Explores Reparations

Hundreds of mostly black spectators descended on Capitol Hill for a hearing that exposed Washington’s cultural and ideological divides.

www.nytimes.com

Politically, this issue doesn't fly, yet. The recent "George Floyd" Protests have caused a handful of Democratic politicians to voice their support for taking a look at it, anyway. And with progressives pushing the Democratic party HARD to the left, that number may grow. Another factor: Boomers are opposed to the concept of reparations 4 out of 5. But more than half of millenials are supportive of the idea, or at least willing to learn more about it. So when us Boomers are gone, the day may come for a reparations plan.

 

[IM2]

So why today considering that King bought up the issue of reparations before he was murdered and blacks have been trying to get a reparations bill passed in congress since 1989, that there is no one on ready with a plan?

From the NYT, last month (good article, if you have access):

Representative John Conyers, who died in 2019, was a long-serving Democrat from Michigan and a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus. He introduced a bill on the study of reparations every year beginning in 1989 and said he would “do so until it’s passed into law.” (He did, until he resigned in 2017.) For years, the prospect of the bill becoming law seemed quite distant. Gallup polling has shown that more than two-thirds of Americans oppose reparations. President Barack Obama said in 2016 that he considered the idea impractical.

Slowly, though, the notion has gained political traction. Sheila Jackson Lee, the Democratic congresswoman from Texas, reintroduced Mr. Conyers’s bill that would establish a commission to study the impact of slavery and make recommendations for its “apology and compensation” in 2019, and Senator Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey, introduced companion legislation in the Senate. Last year on Juneteenth, an annual holiday commemorating the ending of slavery, a subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee held a first-of-its-kind hearing on reparations...

While the political push has long come from veteran black lawmakers, white candidates are discussing the issue of reparations too. At a recent Senate primary debate between Senator Ed Markey and Representative Joe Kennedy, both the Massachusetts Democrats said they were open to the idea. Mr. Kennedy said in an interview that the conversation should “go beyond debate over a study” of the issue, where the legislative focus has remained for decades.
How Reparations for Slavery Became a 2020 Campaign Issue

It sounds, IM, as though Congress has no plan yet. They can't seem to get support for even a study, which is step one. Although--a glimmer of light--there was a hearing last year about having a study, on June 19, 2019:

Wednesday’s historic hearing, the first time Congress has considered a bill, H.R. 40, that would create a commission to develop proposals to address the lingering effects of slavery and consider a “national apology” for the harm it has caused.
The sometimes raucous session before a subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee lasted nearly three and a half hours and dug into the darkest corners of the nation’s history, exposing the bitter cultural and ideological divides in Washington and beyond.

At Historic Hearing, House Panel Explores Reparations

Hundreds of mostly black spectators descended on Capitol Hill for a hearing that exposed Washington’s cultural and ideological divides.

www.nytimes.com

Politically, this issue doesn't fly, yet. The recent "George Floyd" Protests have caused a handful of Democratic politicians to voice their support for taking a look at it, anyway. And with progressives pushing the Democratic party HARD to the left, that number may grow. Another factor: Boomers are opposed to the concept of reparations 4 out of 5. But more than half of millenials are supportive of the idea, or at least willing to learn more about it. So when us Boomers are gone, the day may come for a reparations plan.

Congressional plans aren't what I am referring to. I'm talking about plans from individuals and groups in the black community. Black boomers are not opposed to reparations and many white boomers, especially on the right, have been race pimped by people like Limbaugh into believing it's free money and how they didn't own slaves. This is why people like Ta Nehisi Coates and others have taken a more expansive view due to the fact that the end of slavery didn't really end human rights violations against blacks.

 

[IM2]

Hey IM2.. I think our sticking point here is that you BELIEVE the best way to SELL a reparations plan is to make it about "white guilt".. That would have maybe flown 50 or 60 years ago, but NOW today, even tho I'm appalled at the history and the past, it's not GUILT that's gonna motivate me or other people who are looking at it from an efficacy and problem solving point of view..

There's a problem.. There ya go.. Don't need to expound on that.. Tell me what the future LOOKS LIKE with a particular plan of action... THAT'S what's gonna motivate people to get behind you on this... SELL IT BABY !!!!

You don't actually believe that racial accommodation and normalization is IMPOSSIBLE -- DO YOU? And that unless whites are frozen in guilt for stuff they never did -- and feel some PAIN -- that we can't move forward on improving race relations? Are you SCARED that something/someone MIGHT FIX all that?

You are wrong. Now stop thinking you can tell me what I believe. You aren't looking at this from any view but find a reason to oppose. Whites have 15 times the wealth we do and it wasn't accomplished by whites without individual white getting money. You keep talking dumb shit about what whites didn't do. Whites have benefitted from the maintenance of a system built and based on white racial preference. That old stale "I am not guilty for things I did not do" argument gets no play here. If your dad robbed a bank and bought you a car, you didn't rob the bank but you benefitted from the robbery. This is the case relative to our call for reparations.

I should not have to sell anything. The evidence sits in your face as to the damage created and what a 14 trillion dollar investment will do. Too many people like you have lied to yourselves about a 20 trillion dollar gift to blacks that we have squandered. Too many of you have labored under the delusion that welfare was a wealth building program for blacks. The biggest hold up on reparations is the still general ignorance in the beliefs whites have about black on both sides.