Debate Now The Case for Reparations Goes Beyond Slavery....Pt.2

flacaltenn

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One potential avenue for reparations could be in increasing home ownership, but not through outrageous mortgages. Gentrification drives many low income families out...they can’t afford to buy, and rents go up or become non rentals. Seems there ought to be a way for black families to buy into this.
Maybe that's an avenue for a reparations proposal.. Just cut to the property ownership gap... I'd be somewhat cool with that if there was some ability to GROW their own earnings over time..

Cost of living in Big Blue cities is outrageously high.. Not EVERYBODY is gonna be able to live in Manhattan or Chicago.. But it could be structured as a "bundle" for college/tech school/Comm College/apprentice students that are school subsidized and then offered no interest loans/mortgage subsidies based on their EXPECTED income from the career they chose.. Which phases out as their income reaches the expected levels.

Really wouldn't help those kids who drop out of HS six months before graduation or the older generations tho that are bound to live in high cost areas unless they move...

Which is why I think reparations OUGHT to be tied to staying in HS or having a GED at least. Or having the parents responsible for KEEPING THEM in until at least HS graduation.. Sounds evil. But nothing is gonna get fixed if kids bail HS into "Living Wage" jobs or welfare.

Would not bother me if the result was HIGHER home ownership for blacks than whites and a guarantee of a minimum of HS education.. I mean IMPROVED HS education.. Not the "lower expectation" kind..

We first have to zap the concept that "standardized testing" is racist.. It's NOT if K-12 educations were IDENTICAL across race and economic barriers...
 
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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
Unless I am misunderstanding this...that strikes me as wrong and unjust.
Maybe I didn't explain it well enough then and for the record I'm not an attorney so all that I know about our legal system is from my own research, I'm still learning as well.

It doesn't matter how much money a person has, if someone does something that causes them harm, the injured party is entitled under our laws to "be made whole" which essentially means to return them to the state they would have been in if not for the unlawful or actionable behavior of the defendant (government).

So let's say that your net worth is 10 million dollars. And let's say the bulk of your revenue comes from a website where you sell items or give advice and/or provide services. You're doing well however you still moderate U.S. Message Board for fun. One day, one of the members here gets mad because you ban them and "in retaliation" they hack your website and one of two things now occurs when people try to connect to your site 1) they are unable to connect no matter what they do, 2) they are instead redirected to one of your competitors sites. Additionally, the banned member starts a defamation campaign against you which injures your business reputation and begins to drive away your customers.

As a result of the banned member's behavior you lose 1.5 million dollars worth of revenue as well as many of your loyal and/or repeat customers.

If your net worth is reduced by 1.5 million dollars (the harm you've suffered) due to the retaliatory & unlawful behavior (hacking is a prohibited act) of the banned member (proximate cause) then you are legally entitled to recover that loss revenue from the defendant, provided you can prove each of the 4 elements of your claim - 1) harm, 2) prohibited act, 3) proximate cause (by the defendant) and 4) money damages (the 1.5 million of loss revenue).

One of the concerns I have is that all of the discriminatory behavior conducted by our government et al was at the time legal in spite of the reprehensible nature of the entire system. This may be the reason why they don't want to concede what they did was wrong because once they do that then presumably their admission creates liability (it proves proximate cause).
 
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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
Unless I am misunderstanding this...that strikes me as wrong and unjust.
Then you're not understanding what I wrote.

It doesn't matter how much money a person has, if someone does something that causes them harm, the injured party is entitled under our laws to "be made whole" which essentially means to return them to the state they would have been in if not for the unlawful or actionable behavior of the defendant (government).

So let's say that your net worth is 10 million dollars. And let's say the bulk of your revenue comes from a website where you sell items or give advice and/or provide services. You're doing well however you still moderate U.S. Message Board for fun. One day, one of the members here gets mad because you ban them and "in retaliation" they hack your website and one of two things now occurs when people try to connect to your site 1) they are unable to connect no matter what they do, 2) they are instead redirected to one of your competitors sites. Additionally, the banned member starts a defamation campaign against you which injures your business reputation and begins to drive away your customers.

As a result of the banned member's behavior you lose 1.5 million dollars worth of revenue as well as many of your loyal and/or repeat customers.

If your net worth is reduced by 1.5 million dollars (the harm you've suffered) due to the retaliatory & unlawful behavior (hacking is a prohibited act) of the banned member (proximate cause) then you are legally entitled to recover that loss revenue from the defendant, provided you can prove each of the 4 elements of your claim - 1) harm, 2) prohibited act, 3) proximate cause (by the defendant) and 4) money damages (the 1.5 million of loss revenue).

One of the concerns I have is that all of the discriminatory behavior conducted by our government et al was at the time legal in spite of the reprehensible nature of the entire system. This may be the reason why they don't want to concede what they did was wrong because once they do that then presumably their admission creates liability (it proves proximate cause).
You are are right, I wasn’t understanding...in your example harm is proven and somewhat quantifiable.
 
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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
You argue that really well.. :up: The distinction is WHEN the alleged harm took place upon "the rich" person,.. If it was recent and insidious -- all that analysis is correct..

However, if the JUSTIFICATION and CLAIM for reparations is that events up to a couple hundred years ago are RESPONSIBLE for lack of economic success or equal access to the law or other such appeals --- it's gonna be hard to SHOW "lack of economic success or bias in the law actually INJURED this person.. Personally, emotionally injured? Sure.. But not demonstrably injured by economic or legal bias in their lifetime..
 

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One of the concerns I have is that all of the discriminatory behavior conducted by our government et al was at the time legal in spite of the reprehensible nature of the entire system. This may be the reason why they don't want to concede what they did was wrong because once they do that then presumably their admission creates liability (it proves proximate cause).
Absolutely.. But conceding those guilts 200 years late does not happen everyday... So that's why there needs to be expectations that this is a closed end deal and that the plan (when available) makes a STRONG CASE at being the BEST attempt to change the future for Black America.. Cant be litigated for another 200 years..

I'm believing the HARDEST sell will be WITHIN black America.. Not the REST of America.. And one of the reasons there aren't a DOZEN BRILLIANT reparation plans to read today -- Black America doesn't want to look guilty of being DIVIDED on the specifics of such a plan..

So BOTH the govt and black America are tippy-toeing around actually COMMITTING to anything..
 
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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
You argue that really well.. :up: The distinction is WHEN the alleged harm took place upon "the rich" person,.. If it was recent and insidious -- all that analysis is correct..

However, if the JUSTIFICATION and CLAIM for reparations is that events up to a couple hundred years ago are RESPONSIBLE for lack of economic success or equal access to the law or other such appeals --- it's gonna be hard to SHOW "lack of economic success or bias in the law actually INJURED this person.. Personally, emotionally injured? Sure.. But not demonstrably injured by economic or legal bias in their lifetime..
Except once again, the harm goes past slavery and others have received reparations for things they had nothing to do with. The damage a 246 year record of lost income, no rights and forced illiteracy from 1619-1865 can be traced as a contributing factor to wealth inequality today.
 
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One of the concerns I have is that all of the discriminatory behavior conducted by our government et al was at the time legal in spite of the reprehensible nature of the entire system. This may be the reason why they don't want to concede what they did was wrong because once they do that then presumably their admission creates liability (it proves proximate cause).
Absolutely.. But conceding those guilts 200 years late does not happen everyday... So that's why there needs to be expectations that this is a closed end deal and that the plan (when available) makes a STRONG CASE at being the BEST attempt to change the future for Black America.. Cant be litigated for another 200 years..

I'm believing the HARDEST sell will be WITHIN black America.. Not the REST of America.. And one of the reasons there aren't a DOZEN BRILLIANT reparation plans to read today -- Black America doesn't want to look guilty of being DIVIDED on the specifics of such a plan..

So BOTH the govt and black America are tippy-toeing around actually COMMITTING to anything..
You really don't know anything about black America.
 

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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
You argue that really well.. :up: The distinction is WHEN the alleged harm took place upon "the rich" person,.. If it was recent and insidious -- all that analysis is correct..

However, if the JUSTIFICATION and CLAIM for reparations is that events up to a couple hundred years ago are RESPONSIBLE for lack of economic success or equal access to the law or other such appeals --- it's gonna be hard to SHOW "lack of economic success or bias in the law actually INJURED this person.. Personally, emotionally injured? Sure.. But not demonstrably injured by economic or legal bias in their lifetime..
Except once again, the harm goes past slavery and others have received reparations for things they had nothing to do with. The damage a 246 year record of lost income, no rights and forced illiteracy from 1619-1865 can be traced as a contributing factor to wealth inequality today.
Please drop the 1619 thing.. It just isn't germane. Unless you're looking for reparations from the Spanish, Portugese, English, Italians and French also... And STOP with brain washing school children with 1619 propaganda...

Again -- I ask you to provide a vision for the future and a plan and ALL ya apparently got is history.. For Gods sakes -- let's keep the history part sane and intact.. Otherwise -- even your JUSTIFICATION for reparations suffers...

It's historically futile to ask you specific questions, but I'll try again.. Did reparations in any form to Native Americans have a positive impact in establishing and GUARANTEEING FUTURE economic parity and security for the tribes? Why not?

I think you could figure this out.. It has to do with not being "a plan" and more of a "peace pipe" tokenism.. You want to go that route? Or do you want future economic parity and security?
 
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The Kerner commission identified 12 `grievances common blacks had in their report: “
  1. Police practices
  2. Unemployment and underemployment
  3. Inadequate housing.
  4. Inadequate education
  5. Poor recreation facilities and programs
  6. Ineffectiveness of the political structure and grievance mechanisms.
  7. Disrespectful white attitudes
  8. Discriminatory administration of justice
  9. Inadequacy of federal programs
  10. Inadequacy of municipal services
  11. Discriminatory consumer and credit practices
  12. Inadequate welfare programs.
As a black American, I can say that almost every single one of these things are still grievances 52 years later. You see number 7 in this forum on a daily basis. The criminal justice system has been prove to be racist. The example for number 1 has been seen many times but seems to have finally registered with the murder of George Floyd. While trump bragged about a black unemployment rate he did not create, the reality is that black unemployment remained double that of whites. Wells Fargo and various lenders have continued discriminating and much of the last republican economic crash was due to securities backed with Adjustable Rate Mortgages that sucked in black families with it's initial low payments then as the rates "adjusted" the mortgages became unaffordable. So now as we look at this, list a question must be asked:

Since these things are still grievances, how can people say they are not responsible for things they did not do?
 
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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
You argue that really well.. :up: The distinction is WHEN the alleged harm took place upon "the rich" person,.. If it was recent and insidious -- all that analysis is correct..

However, if the JUSTIFICATION and CLAIM for reparations is that events up to a couple hundred years ago are RESPONSIBLE for lack of economic success or equal access to the law or other such appeals --- it's gonna be hard to SHOW "lack of economic success or bias in the law actually INJURED this person.. Personally, emotionally injured? Sure.. But not demonstrably injured by economic or legal bias in their lifetime..
Except once again, the harm goes past slavery and others have received reparations for things they had nothing to do with. The damage a 246 year record of lost income, no rights and forced illiteracy from 1619-1865 can be traced as a contributing factor to wealth inequality today.
Please drop the 1619 thing.. It just isn't germane. Unless you're looking for reparations from the Spanish, Portugese, English, Italians and French also... And STOP with brain washing school children with 1619 propaganda...

Again -- I ask you to provide a vision for the future and a plan and ALL ya apparently got is history.. For Gods sakes -- let's keep the history part sane and intact.. Otherwise -- even your JUSTIFICATION for reparations suffers...

It's historically futile to ask you specific questions, but I'll try again.. Did reparations in any form to Native Americans have a positive impact in establishing and GUARANTEEING FUTURE economic parity and security for the tribes? Why not?

I think you could figure this out.. It has to do with not being "a plan" and more of a "peace pipe" tokenism.. You want to go that route? Or do you want future economic parity and security?
It is germane and it won't be dropped.
 
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It seems to me that many whites believe a fairy tale version of the history between races here in America. In that tale slavery/apartheid ends by the stroke of a pen and immediately everybody decided to follow the law and everybody began a new era of complete human equality and equal opportunity for all. Problem is, things HAVE NOT happened that way.

Today’s racial wealth gap is perhaps the most glaring legacy of American slavery and the violent economic dispossession that followed. When legal slavery ended in 1865, there was great hope for formerly enslaved people. Between 1865 and 1870, the Reconstruction Amendments established birthright citizenship — making all black people citizens and granting them equal protection under the law — and gave black men the right to vote. There was also the promise of compensation. In January 1865, Gen. William Sherman issued an order reallocating hundreds of thousands of acres of white-owned land along the coasts of Florida, Georgia and South Carolina for settlement by black families in 40-acre plots. Congress established the Freedmen’s Bureau to oversee the transition from slavery to freedom, and the Freedman’s Savings Bank was formed to help four million formerly enslaved people gain financial freedom.

When Lincoln was assassinated, Vice President Andrew Johnson effectively rescinded Sherman’s order by pardoning white plantation owners and returning to them the land on which 40,000 or so black families had settled. “This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men,” Johnson declared in 1866. The Freedmen’s Bureau, always meant to be temporary, was dismantled in 1872. More than 60,000 black people deposited more than $1 million into the Freedman’s Savings Bank, but its all-white trustees began issuing speculative loans to white investors and corporations, and when it failed in 1874, many black depositors lost much of their savings.

“The origins of the racial wealth gap start with the failure to provide the formerly enslaved with the land grants of 40 acres,” says William A. Darity Jr., a professor of public policy and African-American studies at Duke University. Any financial progress that black people made was regarded as an affront to white supremacy. After a decade of black gains under Reconstruction, a much longer period of racial violence would wipe nearly all of it away.

To assuage Southern white people, the federal government pulled out the Union troops who were stationed in the South to keep order. During this period of so-called Redemption, lawmakers throughout the South enacted Black Codes and Jim Crow laws that stripped black people of many of their freedoms and property. Other white people, often aided by law enforcement, waged a campaign of violence against black people that would rob them of an incalculable amount of wealth.

Armed white people stormed prosperous majority-black Wilmington, N.C., in 1898 to murder dozens of black people, force 2,000 others off their property and overthrow the city government. In the Red Summer of 1919, at least 240 black people were murdered across the country. And in 1921, in one of the bloodiest racial attacks in United States history, Greenwood, a prosperous black neighborhood in Tulsa, Okla., was burned and looted. It is estimated that as many as 300 black people were murdered and 10,000 were rendered homeless. Thirty-five square blocks were destroyed. No one was ever convicted in any of these acts of racist violence.

“You have limited opportunity to accumulate wealth, and then you have a process where that wealth is destroyed or taken away,” Darity says. “And all of that is prior to the effects of restrictive covenants — redlining, the discriminatory application of the G.I. Bill and other federal programs.”

The post-Reconstruction plundering of black wealth was not just a product of spontaneous violence, but etched in law and public policy. Through the first half of the 20th century, the federal government actively excluded black people from government wealth-building programs. In the 1930s, President Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal helped build a solid middle class through sweeping social programs, including Social Security and the minimum wage. But a majority of black people at the time were agricultural laborers or domestic workers, occupations that were ineligible for these benefits. The establishment of the Home Owners Loan Corporation in 1933 helped save the collapsing housing market, but it largely excluded black neighborhoods from government-insured loans. Those neighborhoods were deemed “hazardous” and colored in with red on maps, a practice that came to be known as “redlining.”

The G.I. Bill is often hailed as one of Roosevelt’s most enduring legacies. It helped usher millions of working-class veterans through college and into new homes and the middle class. But it discriminatorily benefited white people. While the bill didn’t explicitly exclude black veterans, the way it was administered often did. The bill gave veterans access to mortgages with no down payments, but the Veterans Administration adopted the same racially restrictive policies as the Federal Housing Administration, which guaranteed bank loans only to developers who wouldn’t sell to black people. “The major way in which people have an opportunity to accumulate wealth is contingent on the wealth positions of their parents and their grandparents,” Darity says. “To the extent that blacks have the capacity to accumulate wealth, we have not had the ability to transfer the same kinds of resources across generations.”


 

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I'm believing the HARDEST sell will be WITHIN black America.. Not the REST of America.. And one of the reasons there aren't a DOZEN BRILLIANT reparation plans to read today -- Black America doesn't want to look guilty of being DIVIDED on the specifics of such a plan..
No, the hardest part is selling the government on this because they as well as many racist Americans believe that they didn't do anything wrong and to apologize or admit that slavery and everything that came afterwards in retaliation and vengeance for being told that they were wrong and couldn't hold black people captive any longer will set a precedence that they don't want, including attaching liability to all of that wrong doing.

If they don't even want anyone to admit the absolutely wrongness of what was done, then of course they're not going to want to pay reparations for the damage it caused.

And I don't understand why a concensus among black people needs to be a necessary element. We aren't consulted on anything else, this is just another excuse to never resolve the issue, much like Congress isi doing now, holding up money that people sorely need and making them wait additional months during which many people could lose EVERYTHING that they've worked for. I'm not sure that hasn't been the plan all along - it certainly would go far in eliminating what little middle class had developed.
 

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Rich people of ANY color dont need reparations. They've navigated the system and USED IT to get there. Through talent and education and persistence.. Successful and rich are NOT the hallmarks of a systemically racist society..
Reparations are not about "need". They are about recompense for harms created/allowed/perpetuated by our government.

Plenty of rich people sue others for harms that have been done to them. And they're entitled to the money damages they are awarded if they have successfully proven 1) that they suffered the harm alleged, 2) that the harm was caused by a prohibited act, 3) that the defendant(s) (here substitute our governement) was the proximate cause of the the harm done by the prohibited act, and 4) the money damages caused by the harm that the defendants caused by their engagement in the prohibited act.

There are certain cases where the harm caused by a defendant does not have to be proven and the damages are presumed. I would imagine that because so many of the economical damages caused by the systemic racism which was built into the laws, policies and social practices of the United States, are quantifiable that the psychological and other harm caused by these practices could be presumed as well.

This is not an impossible task, it's not even difficult.
You argue that really well.. :up: The distinction is WHEN the alleged harm took place upon "the rich" person,.. If it was recent and insidious -- all that analysis is correct..

However, if the JUSTIFICATION and CLAIM for reparations is that events up to a couple hundred years ago are RESPONSIBLE for lack of economic success or equal access to the law or other such appeals --- it's gonna be hard to SHOW "lack of economic success or bias in the law actually INJURED this person.. Personally, emotionally injured? Sure.. But not demonstrably injured by economic or legal bias in their lifetime..
Thank you, however harm that can be proven from X number of years ago does not have to be tied to lack of economic success or the inequality of today. In fact that's almost an impossible task and attempting to do so only makes the situation more complex and harder to prevail. Instead take the simple route - if a person is harmed, the harm can be proven, the person/entity (government) who caused the harm can be proven and the harm caused money damages, then just start from there. There are other cases where it's not this cut & dry however those exceptions shouldn't prevent the other provable cases form being pursued and resolved.

With lawsuits, the statute of limitations prevents a lawsuit from being pursued if it is not brought within the prescribed time frame which is why reparations cannot be pursued through normal channels. Then there is the whole situation with our government where with very few exceptions, in order to sue them you need their permission first and how likely do you think it will be that they grant permission? Or willingly turn over culpable evidence that incriminates them?
 
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