Zone1 The Book of Enoch...How should Christians think about it, and why does it matter?

[Woodznutz]

That seems unnecessarily convoluted to me.

To most as well who believe that man is the highest achievement and the ultimate plan in the universe.

 

[onefour1]

Interesting...

But I am a little confused.....



First, are you saying that angels prior to Jesus were unembodied and could NOT have a body, before Christ, but after Christ was resurrected they could be angels occupying a body???

And are you limiting or rather categorizing angels by those angels assigned to earth vs other angels who have not been assigned to earth....which is a distinction needed noting?

In Enoch, are these angels really a misinterpretation of aliens of some sort, because they had bodies... in order to impregnate the women? Or you see the whole book as hogwash???

Sorry for the confusion. In the LDS faith, we believe that God is the Father of our spirits and that we existed as spirits before coming to earth. Other spirits may inhabit other worlds than this earth. We believe that when spirits enter mortality they receive a body of flesh, blood and bones. When a person dies in mortality they become disembodied spirits again until they are resurrected. Once they are resurrected they become immortal with bodies of flesh and bones but no blood. The life of a mortal is in the blood but the life of an immortal is in the spirit.

Our scriptures teach that all ministering angels that minister to this earth belong to this earth. In other words, they will come to this earth to receive their mortal bodies. Thus before they come, they are disembodied spirits. After they die and before they are resurrected they are also disembodied spirits. Since Jesus was the first being to resurrected who came to this earth to receive a body, this would mean that all who belong to this earth prior to Jesus' coming would have to be disembodied spirits. Why? Because they would be spirits if they had not yet come to an earth to receive a body, and if they have already come to earth and died, they would be waiting for their resurrection until after Jesus' resurrection. Thus they would be disembodied also. Thus as ministering angels, it would not be possible for them to have a body prior to the days of Jesus Christ unless they were also mortal humans on this earth as well.

We do not believe that one can have offspring without a body. We believe that God the Father has an immortal body of flesh and bones and is capable of having spirit children. One of the great blessings of having a body is receiving the power to procreate. In the hereafter, only those who are exalted into the kingdom of heaven will have the power to procreated spirit children. No other beings will have this power. The Father himself was able to procreate the Christ child through Mary his mortal mother.

In the Book of Enoch, angels who are in heaven come down before the time of Christ and procreate with humans and start a race called the Nephalim . We do not believe that this was possible since all angels who minister to this earth belong to this earth and before the days of Christ they could not have bodies. Without a body, we do not believe that these angels had any power to procreate. Thus we believe that these teachings are false and that the Book of Enoch is fiction in regards to the angels who procreate with humans and bring forth Nephalim.

After the days of Christ some humans were resurrected and it was possible that they had immortal resurrected bodies. So we do believe it is possible since the days of Christ for some angels to have resurrected bodies of flesh and bones but not before Christ resurrected. The angels of the Book of Enoch came around the time of the prophet Enoch who lived on the earth before the days of Noah. Thus it was impossible for an angel to have a body of flesh and bones prior to the days of Christ and thus they could not have the power to procreate. I believe that God may have created many earths but I believe he limits the angels who minister to each earth to the one which they belong to. If you have other questions, let me know.

 

[Cougarbear]

From the LDS perspective we believe that all angels that administer to this earth either belonged to or will belong to this earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:5
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

What this means is that any angel who ministers to this earth will have at sometime come to this earth as a mortal or will come to this earth as a mortal. It means that all angels who minister to this earth were unembodied spirits before coming to this life to take on themselves mortal bodies. This belief is in direct contrast to what is taught in the Book of Enoch. Why? Because angels who ministered to this earth before the days of Jesus Christ were unembodied spirits. Jesus was the first to resurrect so after a mortal had died, before the days of Jesus, were not resurrected so the spirits of all mortals who had died were again unembodied spirits. Before they came to this earth life they were unembodied spirits. We do not believe that an unembodied spirit is capable of have intercourse with mortals nor capable of having children. Thus the story of angels having intercourse with mortals before the days of Christ is not possible according to our doctrine. The Book of Enoch teaches otherwise. Thus we believe the Book to be false doctrine and a book of fiction.

However, we do have some excerpts from Enoch. He’s mentioned as well as the people of the city taken up to heaven because of their complete and total righteousness.

 

[onefour1]

However, we do have some excerpts from Enoch. He’s mentioned as well as the people of the city taken up to heaven because of their complete and total righteousness.

Yes, I believe you are speaking of Enoch and his people being translated. Translation, as far as I know, is a continuation of mortal life until the time that God decides to have them die or change them in a twinkling of an eye. Is this your understanding of this principle?

 

[Cougarbear]

Yes, I believe you are speaking of Enoch and his people being translated. Translation, as far as I know, is a continuation of mortal life until the time that God decides to have them die or change them in a twinkling of an eye. Is this your understanding of this principle?

Yes…

 

[Care4all]

Sorry for the confusion. In the LDS faith, we believe that God is the Father of our spirits and that we existed as spirits before coming to earth. Other spirits may inhabit other worlds than this earth. We believe that when spirits enter mortality they receive a body of flesh, blood and bones. When a person dies in mortality they become disembodied spirits again until they are resurrected. Once they are resurrected they become immortal with bodies of flesh and bones but no blood. The life of a mortal is in the blood but the life of an immortal is in the spirit.

Our scriptures teach that all ministering angels that minister to this earth belong to this earth. In other words, they will come to this earth to receive their mortal bodies. Thus before they come, they are disembodied spirits. After they die and before they are resurrected they are also disembodied spirits. Since Jesus was the first being to resurrected who came to this earth to receive a body, this would mean that all who belong to this earth prior to Jesus' coming would have to be disembodied spirits. Why? Because they would be spirits if they had not yet come to an earth to receive a body, and if they have already come to earth and died, they would be waiting for their resurrection until after Jesus' resurrection. Thus they would be disembodied also. Thus as ministering angels, it would not be possible for them to have a body prior to the days of Jesus Christ unless they were also mortal humans on this earth as well.

We do not believe that one can have offspring without a body. We believe that God the Father has an immortal body of flesh and bones and is capable of having spirit children. One of the great blessings of having a body is receiving the power to procreate. In the hereafter, only those who are exalted into the kingdom of heaven will have the power to procreated spirit children. No other beings will have this power. The Father himself was able to procreate the Christ child through Mary his mortal mother.

In the Book of Enoch, angels who are in heaven come down before the time of Christ and procreate with humans and start a race called the Nephalim . We do not believe that this was possible since all angels who minister to this earth belong to this earth and before the days of Christ they could not have bodies. Without a body, we do not believe that these angels had any power to procreate. Thus we believe that these teachings are false and that the Book of Enoch is fiction in regards to the angels who procreate with humans and bring forth Nephalim.

After the days of Christ some humans were resurrected and it was possible that they had immortal resurrected bodies. So we do believe it is possible since the days of Christ for some angels to have resurrected bodies of flesh and bones but not before Christ resurrected. The angels of the Book of Enoch came around the time of the prophet Enoch who lived on the earth before the days of Noah. Thus it was impossible for an angel to have a body of flesh and bones prior to the days of Christ and thus they could not have the power to procreate. I believe that God may have created many earths but I believe he limits the angels who minister to each earth to the one which they belong to. If you have other questions, let me know.

So before Christ's resurrection, and spirits who were made mortal on earth that had bodily died that went back to Spirit form, were in waiting for Christ to come to Earth so that His resurrection could take place so they too could be resurrected in to Heaven?? Where were their Spirits in waiting, at?

And are Angels and Spirits one and the same in LDS??

 

[ding]

To most as well who believe that man is the highest achievement and the ultimate plan in the universe.

I'm not sure I would describe it that way.

 

[surada]

However, we do have some excerpts from Enoch. He’s mentioned as well as the people of the city taken up to heaven because of their complete and total righteousness.

The book of Enoch was written about 300 BC..parts were written in 100 BC.

 

[surada]

The Book of Enoch is considered inauthentic and apocalyptic and was mainly written in the Hellenistic period of Judaism, dating from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD. The only version of the Book of Enoch in existence is the Ethiopic translation.

 

[Woodznutz]

I'm not sure I would describe it that way.

Neither did Mark Twain.

 

[ding]

Neither did Mark Twain.

How did he describe it then?

 

[Cougarbear]

The book of Enoch was written about 300 BC..parts were written in 100 BC.

He is mentioned in Genesis chapter 5. A 7th generation removed from Adam and Eve. We know this because people left behind many religious texts that mention this patriarch, If someone put together a story about Enoch later on, that's fine.

 

[buttercup]

The book of Enoch was written about 300 BC..parts were written in 100 BC.

You keep saying this over and over. I did an informal Enoch study with a couple people and the person who led it is someone who is very knowledgable on this topic, and he said that the Book of Enoch is actually much older than that. He said the core text is likely more than four thousand years old.

 

[surada]

He is mentioned in Genesis chapter 5. A 7th generation removed from Adam and Eve. We know this because people left behind many religious texts that mention this patriarch, If someone put together a story about Enoch later on, that's fine.

Enoch in Genesis is described as a son of Cain, and father of Irad. The book of Enoch was written in 300 BC to 300 AD.

 

[onefour1]

So before Christ's resurrection, and spirits who were made mortal on earth that had bodily died that went back to Spirit form, were in waiting for Christ to come to Earth so that His resurrection could take place so they too could be resurrected in to Heaven?? Where were their Spirits in waiting, at?

And are Angels and Spirits one and the same in LDS??

Here is our doctrine regarding the type of beings that angels can be:

Doctrine and Covenants 129

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Here we learn that angels can now be resurrected beings with bodies of flesh and bones and spirits of just men made perfect. God will never send an angel from his presence to deceive us. However, angels of the devil or the devil himself may appear to some and try to deceive us. Before the days of Jesus, all angels from God were not resurrected beings because they belonged to this earth and nobody who belonged to this earth were resurrected yet.

We believe that before we are judged or resurrected, our spirits reside in a place that we call the World of Spirits or the Spirit World.. We believe that after Jesus died and before his resurrection, he went among those who have died but had not yet resurrected and preached his gospel.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Some have taught that the World of Spirits is here on earth and the spirits of the dead are all around us. That isn't express doctrine but I tend to agree with it. Jesus made it possible that all mankind will have the chance to receive his gospel whether in this life or in the World of Spirits. We believe there is a divide in the World of Spirits. One divide is Paradise and this is where those who have accepted Jesus reside in the World of Spirits. The other divide is known as Spirit Prison. This is where all those who have not yet received the gospel reside in the World of Spirits. A latter-day prophet named Joseph F. Smith who was a relation of our first prophet Joseph Smith in these latter days received a vision regarding the dead and you can read about it at this link: Doctrine and Covenants 138.

So yes, those who came before Christ resided in the World of Spirits until Christ resurrected and until they received their judgement. Some of them were angels who appeared and administered to Christ and his Apostles such as Moses and Elias (Elijah).

 

[Natural Citizen]

Enoch is fiction.

Calling extrabiblical texts pseudepigrapha is like Dr. Fauci calling the dialogue of his opposition fake news.

But Christians are equally as guilty in the practice if certain extrabiblical texts don't jive with their doctrine/beliefs.

There are many, many, many extrabiblical texts that are worth reading that have been labeled pseudepigrapha. Or ''fake news,'' as is the latest popular retaliaton invocation for what could be seen by readers as inconvenient truths in these modern times.

Ironically, I'd read The First Book of Adam and Eve a while back. It was an alright read. They're interesting reads, if nothing else. There's a lot of really interesting ones. The only ones that ever get discussed, though, are the ones that Christians think that they might have a use for, or for some specific confirmation of their own worldviews/personal practices/indulgences, therefore rendering or reducing such interest to a very compartmentalized, targeted means of study. Very similar to proof-texting, except from a much broader perspective regarding what constitutes actual study. So, then proof-studying rather than proof-texting.

Of course, that's just...like...my opinion, man.

 

[Cougarbear]

Enoch in Genesis is described as a son of Cain, and father of Irad. The book of Enoch was written in 300 BC to 300 AD.

But Enoch loved 7 generations from Adam…

 

[buttercup]

Calling extrabiblical texts pseudepigrapha is like Dr. Fauci calling the dialogue of his opposition fake news.

But Christians are equally as guilty in the practice if certain extrabiblical texts don't jive with their doctrine/beliefs.

There are many, many, many extrabiblical texts that are worth reading that have been labeled pseudepigrapha. Or ''fake news,'' as is the latest popular retaliaton invocation for what could be seen by readers as inconvenient truths in these modern times.

Ironically, I'd read The First Book of Adam and Eve a while back. It was an alright read. They're interesting reads, if nothing else. There's a lot of really interesting ones. The only ones that ever get discussed, though, are the ones that Christians think that they might have a use for, or for some specific confirmation of their own worldviews/personal practices/indulgences, therefore rendering or reducing such interest to a very compartmentalized, targeted means of study. Very similar to proof-texting, except from a much broader perspective regarding what constitutes actual study. So, then proof-studying rather than proof-texting.

Of course, that's just...like...my opinion, man.

Not all Christians ignore extrabiblical texts.

I agree that there are many extrabiblical texts worth reading. For anyone who's interested in the true history (as opposed to the one we've all been taught) you can get other pieces of the puzzle in regard to events that actually happened thousands of years ago.... and what I think is cool is when those other perspectives unintentionally corroborate the Bible. So yeah, I don't like when Christians completely ignore everything that is outside the Bible.

 

[onefour1]

Here is our doctrine regarding the type of beings that angels can be:

Doctrine and Covenants 129

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Here we learn that angels can now be resurrected beings with bodies of flesh and bones and spirits of just men made perfect. God will never send an angel from his presence to deceive us. However, angels of the devil or the devil himself may appear to some and try to deceive us. Before the days of Jesus, all angels from God were not resurrected beings because they belonged to this earth and nobody who belonged to this earth were resurrected yet.

We believe that before we are judged or resurrected, our spirits reside in a place that we call the World of Spirits or the Spirit World.. We believe that after Jesus died and before his resurrection, he went among those who have died but had not yet resurrected and preached his gospel.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Some have taught that the World of Spirits is here on earth and the spirits of the dead are all around us. That isn't express doctrine but I tend to agree with it. Jesus made it possible that all mankind will have the chance to receive his gospel whether in this life or in the World of Spirits. We believe there is a divide in the World of Spirits. One divide is Paradise and this is where those who have accepted Jesus reside in the World of Spirits. The other divide is known as Spirit Prison. This is where all those who have not yet received the gospel reside in the World of Spirits. A latter-day prophet named Joseph F. Smith who was a relation of our first prophet Joseph Smith in these latter days received a vision regarding the dead and you can read about it at this link: Doctrine and Covenants 138.

So yes, those who came before Christ resided in the World of Spirits until Christ resurrected and until they received their judgement. Some of them were angels who appeared and administered to Christ and his Apostles such as Moses and Elias (Elijah).

I wanted to edit this post but time past and I was not able to edit it so I want to make a correction.

Actually, my church does not believe that Moses and Elijah were in the World of Spirits when they administered to Jesus and His Apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration. The church and I believe that both Moses and Elijah were translated beings. A translated being is one whose mortal existence is prolonged so that they live until God wants them to die or God changes them from mortal to immortal in the twinkling of an eye. Enoch and his entire city were translated and I believe John the Apostle is another who was translated.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Not all Christians ignore extrabiblical texts.

I was just saying that they seem to be very selective when considering which ones carry validity.

I agree that there are many extrabiblical texts worth reading. For anyone who's interested in the true history (as opposed to the one we've all been taught) you can get other pieces of the puzzle in regard to events that actually happened thousands of years ago.... and what I think is cool is when those other perspectives unintentionally corroborate the Bible. So yeah, I don't like when Christians completely ignore everything that is outside the Bible.

Well, that's what I said. They're seen as ''cool'' when they corroborate accepted doctrine but they get a sourpuss face when they don't, or when they perhaps add context that is frowned upon.