The Black/Israel Fallacy

[QUENTIN]

Those who argue and believe that if you don't support Zionism and Israel even in the face of their war crimes, you must be prejudiced against Jews are intellectually indistinguishable from those who argue and believe if you don't like President Obama even in the face of policies you find awful, you must be prejudiced against black people.

Just a fact. It's the exact same argument and they're both completely bogus and dishonest attempts at deflection.

 

[uptownlivin90]

I absolutely agree. Is there a story behind this post? Or just random thoughts?

 

[potter 58]

trolling ,trolling ,trolling LOL

 

[Xenophon]

What do the black israelites say about that?

 

[Oscar Wao]

To Zionists, goyim is their "whitey."

 

[Douger]

GBA Stan and FreeDumb !

 

[QUENTIN]

I absolutely agree. Is there a story behind this post? Or just random thoughts?

The Ron Paul "They're Terrorists Because We're Occupiers" thread had a bunch of this cliche bullshit. People who claimed any fair, objective, or compassionate person who thinks killing innocent people is bad whether it's done by Israel or Islamic terrorists or Soviets or Americans or Cambodians or what have you is equally and always wrong is automatically an anti-semite. Or in other words, people who so fully worship another country that they believe if you don't agree with their stance on our relation to it, it isn't possible that you have a different opinion on policy or more consistent worldview but rather you must be personally deficient and prejudiced. That literally, despite every government in the world making mistakes on a regular basis, this one, Israel, is incapable of any wrongdoing or subsequent criticism and all opposition must be rooted in virulent personal hatred of a group of people for their religious beliefs or ethnicity, that it's impossible to instead just think that their government's policies are inhumane as you might think of many other nations. That was the impetus for this thread. I'm just sick of that intellectually bankrupt idea being trotted out so often.

There's no doubt that a lot of anti-zionists are anti-semites (especially in the Middle East), just as a lot of people who oppose Obama are racists (especially in the rural Midwest and South), the dishonesty and deflection and bullshit arises when anyone claims if you are one you must be the other, implying there is absolutely no legitimate reason to oppose either. A whole lot of the strongest supporters of Zionism are themselves racist against Muslims generally and Palestinians in particular, viewing them as subhuman and therefore their suffering beneath consideration. But I wouldn't dream of saying or thinking "every supporter of Israel is a racist" because that's so obviously nonsense. The reason I made this particular comparison is because, in addition to being the exact same argument with only different nouns plugged in, many of those who cry anti-semitism at every opponent of Israel's belligerent policies are the same folks who endlessly criticize Obama and cry foul (rightly) when someone assumes they must be racist just for disagreeing with him politically.

If you support or oppose any politician or political actor, you should be able to explain why, but attempting to silence dissent by arbitrarily denigrating the character of all who may disagree with you is nothing more than an attempt to avoid discussing the issue at hand, a petty and dishonest distraction tactic.

 

[noose4]

What do the black israelites say about that?

I havent seen those guys in a while

 

[Baruch Menachem]

False equivalence is always stupid.

But those who accuse Israel of war crimes are usually lying about the war crimes supposedly inflicted. Israel, like every other nation has the right to self defense.

Most of the anti Israel stuff I see on the internet is borderline anti semtic.

 

[QUENTIN]

False equivalence is always stupid.

But those who accuse Israel of war crimes are usually lying about the war crimes supposedly inflicted. Israel, like every other nation has the right to self defense.

Most of the anti Israel stuff I see on the internet is borderline anti semtic.

Israel, like every country, has the right to self defense. Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to exist, to not live in a constant state of violent harassment, fear, and calculated punishment to achieve political goals at the expense of the most basic and primitive human rights.

It is a war crime for Hamas or any other group to lob missiles into Israel. Even if they don't kill anyone, the intent is there, the action is a horrible crime, and Israel has the right to respond by attempting to dismantle, overthrow, or kill Hamas militants to protect themselves from further attack.

It is a war crime for Israel, in the pursuit of retribution towards Hamas, to kill ~1,400 Palestinians, over 1,000 of them civilians of which at least 320 were children and 110 were women, in indiscriminate and intentionally belligerent and open warfare against an enclosed, trapped civilian population. It is a war crime for them to intentionally block aid, food, water, and medical care to the civilian population for days on end as they did. It is a war crime for them to knowingly and intentionally shoot innocent civilians on sight, as many Israeli soldiers admitting to doing to Haaretz journalists and was subsequently reported by the BBC and Times Online. It is a war crime for them to bomb schools they knew to be filled with civilians under the suspicion that militants may be hiding among them. It is a war crime to use white phosphorous in heavily populated civilian areas. Essentially the entire way the Israeli Army engaged in the recent siege on Gaza, targeting Palestinians rather than Hamas specifically, is an egregious affront to human rights.

A few choice quotes by IDF soldiers on record and cited in those news stories:

- "That’s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn’t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him."
- "When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself – how is this reasonable?"
-"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,” the NCO said. “I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder."
-"We had taken over the house… and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left… The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot… you can say he just did what he was told… he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them. I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them."
-"a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war."
-"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers."

The Israeli NGO "Breaking The Silence" documented all of this extensively, as well as claims that Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as human shields. The UN's investigative mission found the Israeli military (and Hamas)'s actions to be war crimes and crimes against humanity and the UN Human Rights Council endorsed their report.

It shouldn't really lend any credence to my argument, because the facts are plain and can stand on their own, but I'm half Jewish. I'm agnostic, but I love the Jewish side of my family, Jewish culture, and the rich, unique, wonderful intellectual tradition of Judaism. I don't see people in terms of whatever big amorphous, heterogeneous group they may in part belong to. Judaism is no more responsible for the deplorable actions of the Israeli military than Islam is responsible for the deplorable actions of Hamas. But it's near impossible to look at the most recent Gaza War and not conclude that the leadership and militants of Hamas and leadership and soldiers of the Israeli government committed terrible war crimes. Noting that the latter happen to be Jewish and excusing any criticism of those actions as merely the result of anti-semitism is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic.

Just as claiming a fiscal, social, or foreign policy conservative, libertarian, independent, progressive, or non-aligned liberal who opposes Barack Obama's policies is merely the result of racial prejudice is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic. Both rely on the exact same illogic, stubborn insistence on a pure and uncritiquable political actor, and are meant to distract from a sober consideration and debate of their actions.

Anti-semitism and racism directed at African-Americans surely exists, but people whose views about Israel or Obama or any other Jewish or black person that are the result of racial and religious prejudice make themselves known by the vapidity and misdirected hatred of their arguments. What is unfair and simply fallacious is the assumption that there can be only one, nefarious, easily dismissible and illegitimate rationale for opposition to something you support, whatever it may be.

 

[P F Tinmore]

False equivalence is always stupid.

But those who accuse Israel of war crimes are usually lying about the war crimes supposedly inflicted. Israel, like every other nation has the right to self defense.

Most of the anti Israel stuff I see on the internet is borderline anti semtic.

Occupiers do not have rights. They have responsibilities.

 

[Brubricker]

Occupiers do not have rights.

So there are people in this world who have no rights? Tell us another story, why don'tcha?

 

[The Rabbi]

There is nothing borderline about it. It has all the familiar stench of anti semitism, the usual canards, the unsubstantiated claims, the typical stereotypes.
The OP is a good example, asserting that Israel commits war crimes. They don't. If they did someone would actually say something intelligent about it. Instead it is the usual Arab lobby and their amen corner on this board.

 

[QUENTIN]

There is nothing borderline about it. It has all the familiar stench of anti semitism, the usual canards, the unsubstantiated claims, the typical stereotypes.
The OP is a good example, asserting that Israel commits war crimes. They don't. If they did someone would actually say something intelligent about it. Instead it is the usual Arab lobby and their amen corner on this board.

False equivalence is always stupid.

But those who accuse Israel of war crimes are usually lying about the war crimes supposedly inflicted. Israel, like every other nation has the right to self defense.

Most of the anti Israel stuff I see on the internet is borderline anti semtic.

Israel, like every country, has the right to self defense. Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to exist, to not live in a constant state of violent harassment, fear, and calculated punishment to achieve political goals at the expense of the most basic and primitive human rights.

It is a war crime for Hamas or any other group to lob missiles into Israel. Even if they don't kill anyone, the intent is there, the action is a horrible crime, and Israel has the right to respond by attempting to dismantle, overthrow, or kill Hamas militants to protect themselves from further attack.

It is a war crime for Israel, in the pursuit of retribution towards Hamas, to kill ~1,400 Palestinians, over 1,000 of them civilians of which at least 320 were children and 110 were women, in indiscriminate and intentionally belligerent and open warfare against an enclosed, trapped civilian population. It is a war crime for them to intentionally block aid, food, water, and medical care to the civilian population for days on end as they did. It is a war crime for them to knowingly and intentionally shoot innocent civilians on sight, as many Israeli soldiers admitting to doing to Haaretz journalists and was subsequently reported by the BBC and Times Online. It is a war crime for them to bomb schools they knew to be filled with civilians under the suspicion that militants may be hiding among them. It is a war crime to use white phosphorous in heavily populated civilian areas. Essentially the entire way the Israeli Army engaged in the recent siege on Gaza, targeting Palestinians rather than Hamas specifically, is an egregious affront to human rights.

A few choice quotes by IDF soldiers on record and cited in those news stories:

- "That’s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn’t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him."
- "When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself – how is this reasonable?"
-"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,” the NCO said. “I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder."
-"We had taken over the house… and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left… The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot… you can say he just did what he was told… he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them. I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them."
-"a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war."
-"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers."

The Israeli NGO "Breaking The Silence" documented all of this extensively, as well as claims that Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as human shields. The UN's investigative mission found the Israeli military (and Hamas)'s actions to be war crimes and crimes against humanity and the UN Human Rights Council endorsed their report.

It shouldn't really lend any credence to my argument, because the facts are plain and can stand on their own, but I'm half Jewish. I'm agnostic, but I love the Jewish side of my family, Jewish culture, and the rich, unique, wonderful intellectual tradition of Judaism. I don't see people in terms of whatever big amorphous, heterogeneous group they may in part belong to. Judaism is no more responsible for the deplorable actions of the Israeli military than Islam is responsible for the deplorable actions of Hamas. But it's near impossible to look at the most recent Gaza War and not conclude that the leadership and militants of Hamas and leadership and soldiers of the Israeli government committed terrible war crimes. Noting that the latter happen to be Jewish and excusing any criticism of those actions as merely the result of anti-semitism is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic.

Just as claiming a fiscal, social, or foreign policy conservative, libertarian, independent, progressive, or non-aligned liberal who opposes Barack Obama's policies is merely the result of racial prejudice is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic. Both rely on the exact same illogic, stubborn insistence on a pure and uncritiquable political actor, and are meant to distract from a sober consideration and debate of their actions.

Anti-semitism and racism directed at African-Americans surely exists, but people whose views about Israel or Obama or any other Jewish or black person that are the result of racial and religious prejudice make themselves known by the vapidity and misdirected hatred of their arguments. What is unfair and simply fallacious is the assumption that there can be only one, nefarious, easily dismissible and illegitimate rationale for opposition to something you support, whatever it may be.

During the most recent major assault on Gaza, Israel committed war crimes. I could not have substantiated it more fully. Israeli NGOs, Haaretz, a UN investigative mission, and the UN Human Rights Council all recognize this. Lots of Israeli soldiers admitted to it. There is proof they used white phosphorous against civilian populations. They killed two and a half times as many civilians as militants, including more than 400 women and children. News agencies on the border and the Red Cross all reported that they refused to let ambulances, food, and other humanitarian aid in for the civilians whose homes were ransacked and destroyed or who were wounded. None of that has anything to do with Jews or Judaism, but rather criminal offensive military action. To continue to assert not only that these are not war crimes but that one could only consider them to be war crimes were one anti-semitic is too dishonest and disingenuous to bother replying to again.

 

[Conspiracist]

There is nothing borderline about it. It has all the familiar stench of anti semitism, the usual canards, the unsubstantiated claims, the typical stereotypes.
The OP is a good example, asserting that Israel commits war crimes. They don't. If they did someone would actually say something intelligent about it. Instead it is the usual Arab lobby and their amen corner on this board.

So tired of all of the anti semitic accusations flying every direction. Jews are just as capable of hating as anyone else and are a huge abuser of these accusations. The Palestinians are merely people that were tossed from their homes in the 50's and are still pissed about it and anyone that acknowledges this is an anti semite. Now you go accusing the OP as an anti semite. Easy out rather than discussing the topic punk. He pointed out that Israeli's kill civillians intentionally by quoting interviews with Israeli soldiers. That's not INTELLIGENT enough for you to join the discussion? I guess not, you are more comfy flinging fucking accusations. Good job.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Occupiers do not have rights.

So there are people in this world who have no rights? Tell us another story, why don'tcha?

Are you saying that occupiers have the "right" to defend themselves from the occupied?

That is an interesting concept. Could you expand.

 

[The Rabbi]

There is nothing borderline about it. It has all the familiar stench of anti semitism, the usual canards, the unsubstantiated claims, the typical stereotypes.
The OP is a good example, asserting that Israel commits war crimes. They don't. If they did someone would actually say something intelligent about it. Instead it is the usual Arab lobby and their amen corner on this board.

So tired of all of the anti semitic accusations flying every direction. Jews are just as capable of hating as anyone else and are a huge abuser of these accusations. The Palestinians are merely people that were tossed from their homes in the 50's and are still pissed about it and anyone that acknowledges this is an anti semite. Now you go accusing the OP as an anti semite. Easy out rather than discussing the topic punk. He pointed out that Israeli's kill civillians intentionally by quoting interviews with Israeli soldiers. That's not INTELLIGENT enough for you to join the discussion? I guess not, you are more comfy flinging fucking accusations. Good job.

And virtually every one of these stories is later debunked when it is discovered that there is no Israeli soldier verifying any of it.
More grist for the anti-semites.

 

[QUENTIN]

And virtually every one of these stories is later debunked when it is discovered that there is no Israeli soldier verifying any of it.
More grist for the anti-semites.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/ENGLISH_oferet.pdf

That's testimonies from 30 IDF soldiers, regular combat and reservists, from a wide spectrum of units, specialties, and places, about their experience in the Gaza siege. Their testimonies confirm the use of "white phosphorous in populated areas, rampant and intentional killing of civilians using small arms, destruction of homes and mosques for no military purpose, and the use of civilians as human shields (called Johnnie's)."

Those testimonies are written by members of Breaking the Silence, an NGO established by the IDF for soldiers and veterans to discuss what they experience in their service and to "break the silence' of IDF soldiers who return to civilian life in Israel and "discover the gap between the reality which they encountered in the [occupied] territories, and the silence which they encounter at home." By publishing soldiers' accounts, Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" and face the truth about "abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property" that is familiar to soldiers."

It's a group formed by and comprised entirely of current and former members of the IDF whose stories are corroborated against one another.

If what you meant was that the Israeli government denies the reports of Israeli and foreign journalists who witnessed the siege and of the many soldiers who have spoken and written about the war crimes they witnessed and took part in, well duh. There isn't a government in the world that freely admits it commits war crimes, they have a strong and vested interest in trying to appear as though they behaves according to the rules of war. But in addition to the humanitarian aid workers, journalists, IDF soldiers, and Palestinians who personally witnessed all of this and whose independent stories match one another, the UN also investigated and concluded Israel was guilty of war crimes.

Shock!: A government lied about committing crimes against humanity. If you're so gullible and biased as to believe "if the accused doesn't admit it, it must not be true" and that every other entity involved must be lying (since the IDF has a long history of anti-semitism, right? ) then the fact is you don't care about the truth and it doesn't matter to you what happened, you're going to stick to whatever pre-decided blindly pro-Israel position you started with.

 

[Conspiracist]

And virtually every one of these stories is later debunked when it is discovered that there is no Israeli soldier verifying any of it.
More grist for the anti-semites.

I am sure you are probably a great guy in RL but you have perfected running and lying to avoid discussion leaving behind you a trail of baseless anti semite accusations showing no proof whatsoever that what was put forward is false. You rely on pity and fear from those you accuse and guilt as well. You should be the one feeling guilty for calling the OP an anti semite for posting this.

Or, you can just run as you seem to be doing really well.

Run Rabbit Run!

 

[Baruch Menachem]

If you use a civilian structure as a military position, you bear the weight of the blame for the damage the civilians take when the other side takes it out.

The Palestinians routinely use human shields. All of Gaza is effectively a human shield these days. The Palestinians shoot rockets into Israel indiscriminately. Israel does its best to make sure only the bad guys get hurt.

The only reason we are even bothering with this discussion is Israel and the international community carres what Israel does. The Palestinians.... the damage they do no one cares about.