Texas Open-Carry, Boys and their Deadly Toys.

[Brain357]

And from Wright and Rossi on their study on criminals...

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf

Yes you post the same thing over and over because you can't counter what I'm saying.

Everything I post shows how foolish and silly you are brain...I site actual research you site fantasy.....and dismiss actual numbers from actual researchers many of them who started out as gun grabbers......like Wright and Rossi, both gun grabbers...who had their minds changed by the actual research into the topic.......

No I post actual real world statistics and you post fantasy.

Yeah.....the research I site is the fantasy......you are really silly brain....I have 16 studies on gun self defense, and 29 on concealed carry that I can actually link to, and several studies on guns stopping rape......you make up your numbers...

I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.

 

[Brain357]

Brain, I have to move on.....I have shown you to be wrong enough for today...I'll show that you are wrong again later in the week....

I have shown that first most rapes aren't even defendable. And I have also shown that carrying is dangerous to the woman.

I have shown that at the giffords shooting the shooter was stopped by unarmed heroes. The person with a gun stopped the wrong person. And magazine limits would have saved lives.

You have just posted a bunch of fantasy.

Coward.....

Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...

Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....

Lying shows you are losing....

 

[2aguy]

Brain, I have to move on.....I have shown you to be wrong enough for today...I'll show that you are wrong again later in the week....

I have shown that first most rapes aren't even defendable. And I have also shown that carrying is dangerous to the woman.

I have shown that at the giffords shooting the shooter was stopped by unarmed heroes. The person with a gun stopped the wrong person. And magazine limits would have saved lives.

You have just posted a bunch of fantasy.

Coward.....

Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...

Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....

Lying shows you are losing....

Brain, all you and your gun grabber buddies have are lies and emotion......Kleck is one of the best studies out there and his isn't even the only study...but since you can't touch his study you lie about it and then try to hide the number of studies actually done that show you are wrong...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[Brain357]

I have shown that first most rapes aren't even defendable. And I have also shown that carrying is dangerous to the woman.

I have shown that at the giffords shooting the shooter was stopped by unarmed heroes. The person with a gun stopped the wrong person. And magazine limits would have saved lives.

You have just posted a bunch of fantasy.

Coward.....

Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...

Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....

Lying shows you are losing....

Brain, all you and your gun grabber buddies have are lies and emotion......Kleck is one of the best studies out there and his isn't even the only study...but since you can't touch his study you lie about it and then try to hide the number of studies actually done that show you are wrong...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

And 11 of them say it is under 2 million. And the fact they all arrive at vastly different numbers shows how inaccurate a survey is for DGUs. If they were accurate they would all arrive at similar numbers. And again those numbers aren't supported by anything in reality. Only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 make the news a year. Your numbers have more crimes defended than committed...

 

[PaintMyHouse]

And from Wright and Rossi on their study on criminals...

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf

Yes you post the same thing over and over because you can't counter what I'm saying.

Everything I post shows how foolish and silly you are brain...I site actual research you site fantasy.....and dismiss actual numbers from actual researchers many of them who started out as gun grabbers......like Wright and Rossi, both gun grabbers...who had their minds changed by the actual research into the topic.......

No I post actual real world statistics and you post fantasy.

Yeah.....the research I site is the fantasy......you are really silly brain....I have 16 studies on gun self defense, and 29 on concealed carry that I can actually link to, and several studies on guns stopping rape......you make up your numbers...

I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.

Just a bit of common sense will undo this kind of crap. One in 150 people pull a gun to defend themselves each year, when only a third of the population owns or lives with someone who owns a gun? Not a chance. Hell, the cops don't pull out guns at that rate.

I heard odd noises outside the house late one night and pulled a gun, I was young, and went out to check. It was the kid next door changing a tire. 2a would count that as me defending myself, from a potential lug nut.

 

[legaleagle_45]

I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.

There is a dispute as to just how many DGU's occur per year. They range from a high of 3 million to a low of 500,000. Most researchers believe that there are at least 800,000 DGU's per year.

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

"PRIORITIES FOR RESEARCH TO REDUCE THE THREAT OF FIREARM-RELATED VIOLENCE" Report of CDC 2013 by the National Academy of Sciences.

 

[Brain357]

I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.

There is a dispute as to just how many DGU's occur per year. They range from a high of 3 million to a low of 500,000. Most researchers believe that there are at least 800,000 DGU's per year.

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

"PRIORITIES FOR RESEARCH TO REDUCE THE THREAT OF FIREARM-RELATED VIOLENCE" Report of CDC 2013 by the National Academy of Sciences.

Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?

 

[Vandalshandle]

I used a gun to defend myself against a rattlesnake last year. True, it was about 12 feet away, but that is one rattler that isn't going to attack me.

 

[Brain357]

I used a gun to defend myself against a rattlesnake last year. True, it was about 12 feet away, but that is one rattler that isn't going to attack me.

And that would be a positive in many DGU surveys....

 

[westwall]

More fun for the feeble minded:

Similar to this one....
idiots on harleys - YouTube

At least we have to undergo an extensive test, and obtain a license before we are allowed to endanger other people with our Harley's. Not so, regarding guns in AZ.

"Extensive"? Not really. If you want to experience an extensive test you have to go to Europe They actually take driver skills seriously over there. No, most Harley riders are weekend riders with very little in the way of real skill at riding.

 

[Vandalshandle]

More fun for the feeble minded:

Similar to this one....
idiots on harleys - YouTube

At least we have to undergo an extensive test, and obtain a license before we are allowed to endanger other people with our Harley's. Not so, regarding guns in AZ.

"Extensive"? Not really. If you want to experience an extensive test you have to go to Europe They actually take driver skills seriously over there. No, most Harley riders are weekend riders with very little in the way of real skill at riding.

West, you don't live in AZ. I have had to pass motorcycle driving tests in 7 states, and none compared with AZ. I had to start by taking a 4 hour course (even though I had been riding for 45 years). I then had to take a 2 hour driving and written test. 15% of the class failed. Talk about something that you know something about.

 

[westwall]

I used a gun to defend myself against a rattlesnake last year. True, it was about 12 feet away, but that is one rattler that isn't going to attack me.

Poor snake. 12 feet away is no threat to you so you basically murdered it because you needed to feel like a man. Rattlers don't like to be around people and if you leave them alone they will leave you alone. Next time you have a desire to feel "manly" take out the trash.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?

The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."

As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.

 

[Brain357]

I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.

There is a dispute as to just how many DGU's occur per year. They range from a high of 3 million to a low of 500,000. Most researchers believe that there are at least 800,000 DGU's per year.

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

"PRIORITIES FOR RESEARCH TO REDUCE THE THREAT OF FIREARM-RELATED VIOLENCE" Report of CDC 2013 by the National Academy of Sciences.

Less Guns Less Crime- Debunking the Self-Defense Myth Armed With Reason

In 2010, according to the most recent data on justifiable homicides from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) program, there were 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm in self-defense during either an attempted or a completed crime.

Two other areas of crime—violent crime and property crime—are analyzed by the Violence Policy Center, and cast serious doubt on the argument that guns are used regularly in self-defense. Between 2007 and 2011, only 0.8 percent of violent crimes involved the intended victim using a firearm in self-defense. During the same five year period, only 0.1 percent of attempted or completed property crimes involved the intended victim using a firearm in self-defense. Given that between 40-45% of American households own a gun, and less than 0.1 percent of victims of property crime end up using a gun to stop a crime, it’s impossible to suggest that guns are being effectively used in self-defense. Rather than guns serving as a useful deterrent, they instead helped to directly facilitate crime: 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households between 2005 and 2010.

 

[westwall]

More fun for the feeble minded:

Similar to this one....
idiots on harleys - YouTube

At least we have to undergo an extensive test, and obtain a license before we are allowed to endanger other people with our Harley's. Not so, regarding guns in AZ.

"Extensive"? Not really. If you want to experience an extensive test you have to go to Europe They actually take driver skills seriously over there. No, most Harley riders are weekend riders with very little in the way of real skill at riding.

West, you don't live in AZ. I have had to pass motorcycle driving tests in 7 states, and none compared with AZ. I had to start by taking a 4 hour course (even though I had been riding for 45 years). I then had to take a 2 hour driving and written test. 15% of the class failed. Talk about something that you know something about.

Big whoop.

In the UK the pass rate is less than 50% in most areas. Like I said, they really test your skill levels. I suggest you follow your own advice.

Fewer than half Britain s driving test centres have pass rates of 50 per cent or more Daily Mail Online

 

[Brain357]

Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?

The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."

As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.

Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.

The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.

The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.

More than 50 DGU make the news per year, they just do not make front page headlines.

The reason there are only about 230 criminals killed in firearm justifiable homicide cases is for a couple of reasons--- the first is not really relevant to your point(but I will mention it merely for your edification), but the second is...

1.) FBI stats are based upon initial police reporting. Almost all legitimate self defense killings are not classified as self defense by the police, instead they classify it as a criminal homicide and defer a decision to the District Attorney who may or may not recommend prosecution. Even if the DA does recommend prosecution they can and do lose at trial based upon self defense. It is estimated that if you include the number of persons who were not prosecuted by the DA because of a determination of self defense by the DA and if you add the number of acquittals based upon self defense the number would increase by at least 500 to 750.

2.)The 2nd reason for the low body count, and of prime importance is that you rarely have to fire your weapon for there to be an effective DGU, merely cycling your Joe Biden approved shotgun will oft times have the desired effect, which is why the police only have about 450 justifiable homicides per year.

The fact remains that almost all researchers believe there are at least 500,000 dgu's per year.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Less Guns Less Crime- Debunking the Self-Defense Myth Armed With Reason.

Armed with reason is the opinion of two recent college grads, Evan DeFilippis and Devin Hughes.

Evan received bachelors degree from the University of Oklahoma in Economics, Political Science, and Psychology. He also speak fluent Swahili . His opinion is just as relevant as mine and less so than the accepted professional researchers in the field who conclude that there are at least 500,000 dgu's a year.

Devin Hughes also received bachelors degree from the University of Oklahomain in Finance and Risk Management. He was also the 2008 Oklahoma state chess champion. His opinion is just as relevant as mine and less so than the accepted professional researchers in the field who conclude that there are at least 500,000 dgu's a year.

Two other areas of crime—violent crime and property crime—are analyzed by the Violence Policy Center, and cast serious doubt on the argument that guns are used regularly in self-defense..

The VPC is a virulent antigun website which is ridiculed for its phony studies. They rely upon misrepresentation and falsification to persuade the gullible. Their CEO is Josh Sugarmann who infamously stated

Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons.

He also is the source for the idea that coating a bullet with Teflon makes it an armor piercing round and that Glocks are invisible to airport metal detectors.

No respectable researcher relies upon the VPC for anything.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

BRAIN357 SAID:

...

2AGUY SAID:

…

You're both wrong.

Both of your 'arguments' are ridiculous and devoid of merit.

Citizens are not required to 'justify' the exercising of a Constitutional right as a 'prerequisite' to indeed do so. The fact that a gun in the home is more likely to kill the owner than an intruder in no way mitigates the fact that one has a Constitutional right to possess a firearm, nor does this fact in any way 'justify' placing restrictions on the acquisition and possession of firearms.

The same is true with regard to the fact gun possession in no way reduces violent crime; and that other Western nations have reduced gun deaths and have fewer gun crimes as a consequence of their more severe gun restrictions has no bearing whatsoever on the Second Amendment right in the United States, the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and immune from attack by government, pursuant to the right to self-defense.

 

[Brain357]

BRAIN357 SAID:

...

2AGUY SAID:

…

You're both wrong.

Both of your 'arguments' are ridiculous and devoid of merit.

Citizens are not required to 'justify' the exercising of a Constitutional right as a 'prerequisite' to indeed do so. The fact that a gun in the home is more likely to kill the owner than an intruder in no way mitigates the fact that one has a Constitutional right to possess a firearm, nor does this fact in any way 'justify' placing restrictions on the acquisition and possession of firearms.

The same is true with regard to the fact gun possession in no way reduces violent crime; and that other Western nations have reduced gun deaths and have fewer gun crimes as a consequence of their more severe gun restrictions has no bearing whatsoever on the Second Amendment right in the United States, the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and immune from attack by government, pursuant to the right to self-defense.

I've not been arguing to ban guns. Be specific, what of my arguments are ridiculous.