Terminator 2020; Why the F-4 Phantom is Still Turkey’s Fastest, Highest Flying and Most Heavily Arme

Daryl Hunt

Your Worst Nightmare
Oct 22, 2014
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Terminator 2020; Why the F-4 Phantom is Still Turkey’s Fastest, Highest Flying and Most Heavily Armed Fighter Jet

In service since 1960, the U.S. F-4 Phantom would come to define third generation military aviation and would serve as America’s prime fighter jet throughout the Vietnam War until its replacement by the F-15 Eagle from 1976. The F-4 was designed as a high performance twin engine heavy fighter, fulfilling a complementary role to the lighter F-5, and the Phantom’s export was restricted to high level U.S. allies such as Japan, West Germany, Iran and Israel. Lower tier allies such as South Vietnam were forced to rely on the lighter and less capable F-5. The F-4 still remains in service with a number of operators today, and has been heavily modernised to keep it viable in modern aerial warfare. Japan, Iran, South Korea, Greece and Turkey remain the platform’s only operators today, almost sixty years after it first entered service, while Germany reportedly retains a vast reserve fleet of the fighters. While most F-4 operators have since the Cold War era acquired more advanced fighter jets capable of better fulfilling the same role of an elite heavy fighter, in most cases the F-14 or F-15 fourth generation air superiority platforms which replaced the Phantom in the 1970s, in the Turkish Air Force the F-4 still remains the only heavy fighter in service.

While Turkey has taken steps to upgrade its fleet of light multirole fighters, replacing most of its fleet of over 200 F-5 aircraft with almost 250 F-16 single engine light platforms while retaining a small contingent of the F-5 in a supporting role, the Turkish Air Force has yet to acquire a replacement with comparable capabilities to the F-4. Turkey never took steps to acquire fourth generation heavy air superiority platforms such as the F-14 or F-15, and acquiring the fifth generation F-22 from the United Stats remains effectively impossible. With the coming of the F-35, the fifth generation successor to both the F-5 and the F-16, the Turkish light fighter fleet will have undergone two generations of upgrades wile still relying on third generation platforms for its air superiority capabilities. Turkey’s Air Force modernisation has thus been highly unusual and imbalanced, and the Turkish Phantom fleet remains critical to the country’s aerial warfare capabilities and appears likely to continue to fly alongside the F-16 and the F-35 for years to come.

While the F-16 and F-35 were designed decades after the F-4, as a high end air superiority platform the Phantom retains significant capability advantages over the lighter platforms which make it an invaluable asset to the Turkish Air Force. The Phantom’s operational altitude is significantly higher than either the F-16 or the F-35, both of which are restricted to altitudes of little over 15km where the F-4 can operate at altitudes of 18km. This provides the Phantom with a significantly greater degree of survivability in air to air combat as well as when operating against enemy air defences. The F-4 is also considerably faster than the F-35, which restricted to speeds of Mach 1.6 is the slowest modern fighter in service, or the F-16 which retains a Mach 2 speed, with the Phantom able to engage adversaries at Mach 2.23 - making it one of the fastest U.S. fighters ever built. The fighter also carries a far heavier payload than its lighter counterparts, and due to its higher speed can impart more energy to the missiles it deploys than either the F-16 or the F-35 can.

The F-4 fighters operated by the Turkish Air Force today have been extensively upgraded to give them capabilities comparable to early variants of the F-15, making them far more capable in an air superiority role than either the F-16 or the F-35 despite the airframe’s age. Turkish Phantoms, upgraded with Israeli assistance, have been designated F-4 Terminator 2020 and are perhaps the most lethal in the world rivalled only by the F-4EJ Kai operated by the Japanese Air Force. The fighters have had 20km of internal wiring replaced by lighter modern systems, reducing their weight by a phenomenal 750kg and thereby significantly enhancing the aircraft’s trust/weight ratio making it more manoeuvrable and better suited to air to air engagements. New attachment fittings allow the Turkish Phantoms to more effectively deploy modern weapons, while modern avionics including the Kaiser EL-OP HUD and HOTAS systems, an advanced EL/M-2032 pulse doppler radar and state of the art Israeli mission computers and navigation equipment have all been added. State of the art electronic warfare pods, targeting pods, and the ability to deploy modern munitions have made Turkey’s Phantoms viable as modern air superiority platforms, and the aircraft are in many ways the most capable in Turkish service. Whether Turkey will acquire new air superiority platforms to replace the F-4 in future, with the Russian Su-57, an analogue to the U.S. F-22, having been named as one possibility by Turkish sources, remains to be seen. Until that time the F-4 will be relied on heavily by the Turkish military to fulfil a complementary role to its ever expanding fleet of light fighters.
 
I'm sorry to say this is tripe. The author makes the same assumption that MoronOnTheStreet does, that altitude and speed are the qualifiers of a superior aircraft. All it takes is quick glance through history of air-to-air engagements in the modern era, they are almost always at transonic speeds and optimal cruising altitudes. Nobody cruises around at 60k feet mach 2+ looking for a fight, and that's why max speed for jet fighters peaked over 40 years ago. Good sensors and long distance efficient dash speeds are far more useful in modern air combat than top speed.

To claim they are superior in air superiority to F-16s or F-35s is laughable, a modern F-16 would get easily get first look first shot on a Turkish F-4 and start the cycle of dodge or die for the F-4. It wouldn't even know it was fighting an F-35 until their wing exploded from AMRAAM fragments.
 
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I'm sorry to say this is tripe. The author makes the same assumption that MoronOnTheStreet does, that altitude and speed are the qualifiers of a superior aircraft. All it takes is quick glance through history of air-to-air engagements in the modern era, they are almost always at transonic speeds and optimal cruising altitudes. Nobody cruises around at 60k feet mach 2+ looking for a fight, and that's why max speed for jet fighters peaked over 40 years ago. Good sensors and long distance efficient dash speeds are far more useful in modern air combat than top speed.

To claim they are superior in air superiority to F-16s or F-35s is laughable, a modern F-16 would get easily get first look first shot on a Turkish F-4 and start the cycle of dodge or die for the F-4. It wouldn't even know it was fighting an F-35 until their wing exploded from AMRAAM fragments.

And you are doing what manopad does as well. You are assuming the enemy will have the F-35 and F-16 with all the cool toys. Not much of a chance of that. They may face the F-16 but it's going to be one of the earlier builds which the F-4 that Turkey has can easily match at a long range in radar, detection and weapons.
 
While the F-16 and F-35 were designed decades after the F-4, as a high end air superiority platform the Phantom retains significant capability advantages over the lighter platforms which make it an invaluable asset to the Turkish Air Force. The Phantom’s operational altitude is significantly higher than either the F-16 or the F-35, both of which are restricted to altitudes of little over 15km where the F-4 can operate at altitudes of 18km. This provides the Phantom with a significantly greater degree of survivability in air to air combat as well as when operating against enemy air defences. The F-4 is also considerably faster than the F-35, which restricted to speeds of Mach 1.6 is the slowest modern fighter in service, or the F-16 which retains a Mach 2 speed, with the Phantom able to engage adversaries at Mach 2.23 - making it one of the fastest U.S. fighters ever built. The fighter also carries a far heavier payload than its lighter counterparts, and due to its higher speed can impart more energy to the missiles it deploys than either the F-16 or the F-35 can.

Havent I told you this multiple times,,,think what will happen when they face modern opponents much less an F4...
 
All I want for Xmas is this ...

1200px-Lockheed_XF-104_%28modified%29.jpg


It may not have air superiority ... but it's cool as balls.
 
Havent I told you this multiple times,,,think what will happen when they face modern opponents much less an F4...
We'll all sit here and wait for you to provide examples of air combat in modern era occurring above 50k feet or mach 1.4, and as usual with everything you post we'll just get crickets chirping....
 
Havent I told you this multiple times,,,think what will happen when they face modern opponents much less an F4...
We'll all sit here and wait for you to provide examples of air combat in modern era occurring above 50k feet or mach 1.4, and as usual with everything you post we'll just get crickets chirping....
Doesn't have to to exercise the altitude advantage...keep pretending it doesn't matter.....until it does...Gee wonder Why F22 can fly to edge of space....no combat occurs up there
 
Havent I told you this multiple times,,,think what will happen when they face modern opponents much less an F4...
We'll all sit here and wait for you to provide examples of air combat in modern era occurring above 50k feet or mach 1.4, and as usual with everything you post we'll just get crickets chirping....

That's why Lockheed give out the F-35 to Israel and Saudi Arabia ... they're the ones most likely to show off it's combat potential. The ultimate celebrity endorsement.
 
And you are doing what manopad does as well. You are assuming the enemy will have the F-35 and F-16 with all the cool toys.
I've never seen MaxiPadOnTheStreet make this argument.

Not much of a chance of that. They may face the F-16 but it's going to be one of the earlier builds which the F-4 that Turkey has can easily match at a long range in radar, detection and weapons.
None of this supports the argument the author was making that Turkey's F-4 was a superior air to air fighter than F-35 or F-16.

The majority of Turkey's active duty F-16s are now block 50s, they are far superior aircraft to upgraded F-4s in just about any role.

Z9a68EW.png
 
Doesn't have to to exercise the altitude advantage...keep pretending it doesn't matter.....until it does...Gee wonder Why F22 can fly to edge of space....no combat occurs up there
and this is a perfect example of crickets chirping... I ask again, when was the last combat kill from a fighter flying over 50k feet? There is lots of data available on combat kills in the modern era, it should be easy right? You act like it's so important, yet just about every kill is at 25-30k feet and slightly under mach 1.

Simple question = chirp... chirp...
 
Doesn't have to to exercise the altitude advantage...keep pretending it doesn't matter.....until it does...Gee wonder Why F22 can fly to edge of space....no combat occurs up there
and this is a perfect example of crickets chirping... I ask again, when was the last combat kill from a fighter flying over 50k feet? There is lots of data available on combat kills in the modern era, it should be easy right?

Chirp... chirp...
Whats that I hear...chirping????? The whole purpose of being able to fly higher is to gain kill advantage.....for some reason you delude yourself into thinking our enemies will not use this advantage but fight "fair"
 
The F-4 was a triple threat, bomb, strafe, or fall out of the sky on you, but it was/is awesome fast and tough.
f-4fighterrrr.jpg
 
Whats that I hear...chirping????? The whole purpose of being able to fly higher is to gain kill advantage.....for some reason you delude yourself into thinking our enemies will not use this advantage but fight "fair"
Then why won't you answer the simple question? You keep posting yet you studiously (and obviously) avoid answer the question.

I'll try again, but we both know you'll ignore it since it sinks your argument... how many kills, of the many recorded in the modern era including fighters like F-15 and MIG-25 that can fly above 50k, were made at altitudes above 50k? Simple question right? You think extreme max speed and altitude are so important, why aren't they factors in air combat? You cannot get your tiny brain around the fact that planes don't just fly around at the edge of space looking for a fight, it makes no sense for a combat mission.

Simple question, you'll ignore it, and chirp chirp chirp for MaxiPadOnTheStreet...
 
I have wondered what an A-10 could have done in WWll against a ship....probably make it look like a cheese grater
 
Whats that I hear...chirping????? The whole purpose of being able to fly higher is to gain kill advantage.....for some reason you delude yourself into thinking our enemies will not use this advantage but fight "fair"
Then why won't you answer the simple question? You keep posting yet you studiously (and obviously) avoid answer the question.

I'll try again, but we both know you'll ignore it since it sinks your argument... how many kills, of the many recorded in the modern era including fighters like F-15 and MIG-25 that can fly above 50k, were made at altitudes above 50k? Simple question right? You think extreme max speed and altitude are so important, why aren't they factors in air combat? You cannot get your tiny brain around the fact that planes don't just fly around at the edge of space looking for a fight, it makes no sense for a combat mission.

Simple question, you'll ignore it, and chirp chirp chirp for MaxiPadOnTheStreet...
Uh duh you do know MIG 15s continually jumped the lower flying F-86 from above....Starting at 50 grand...ooooopsLook down shoot down has made it much easier these days...notice you avoided answering the F22 question...rather inconvenient isn't it...your good buddy in propaganda blew it by admitting the obvious
 
The whole purpose of being able to fly higher is to gain kill advantage....
Since both US and Soviet have had fighters that can fly higher than 50k feet since the 1970s, surely it should be quite easy for you to reference examples of fighters engaging in air combat from this altitude? We're talking 40 years here, easy right? Oh wait, you can't... because air combat occurs between aircraft flying at efficient cruising altitudes of 25-35k feet. Nobody launches a fighter and burns all it's fuel climbing to the edge of space just on the off chance they get a look down.

Bonus question = what are the performance characteristics of an SU-30 (or whatever 4/4.5 gen fighter) with fuel tanks and external missiles? Still have that high speed and altitude or no? F-35 in air-to-air role has the same, so you're comparing a combat ready F-35 to an air show demo Russian plane. Retard much?

Crickets...
 
Uh duh you do know MIG 15s continually jumped the lower flying F-86 from above....Starting at 50 grand...ooooopsLook down shoot down has made it much easier these days...
Okay then show me? Where did a combat jet in modern era have an advantage because it was at over 50k feet? Easy question.

Chirp.... chirp...
 
Lame....LALALALALAAL....great strategy...….
and he admits defeat as usual, can't answer a simple question.

again, where is an example of a modern combat kill from a jet flying at over 50K?

Easy question, MaxiPadOnTheStreet can't answer it... chirp...
 
Uh duh you do know MIG 15s continually jumped the lower flying F-86 from above....Starting at 50 grand...ooooopsLook down shoot down has made it much easier these days...
Okay then show me? Where did a combat jet in modern era have an advantage because it was at over 50k feet? Easy question.

Chirp.... chirp...
Alrdy did....Migs were jumping us from above routinely....that's the dawn of jet on jet …..they now fly much higher 50 grand is peanuts
 

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