Terminator 2020; Why the F-4 Phantom is Still Turkey’s Fastest, Highest Flying and Most Heavily Arme

[TroglocratsRdumb]

https://www.quora.com/What-key-fact...5-dogfights-so-lopsided-during-the-Korean-War
F-86 was slower and lower but it had better pilots and better guns and better gun sights, soooo 10:1 kill ratio

 

[DrainBamage]

Alrdy did....Migs were jumping us from above routinely....that's the dawn of jet on jet …..they now fly much higher 50 grand is peanuts

No you didn't, the service ceiling of a MIG-15 was about 50k feet and it made kills with cannons so clearly that is not an example of a fighter in modern combat era making a kill at over 50k feet. An 2k service ceiling advantage to escape from an F-86 cannon fire is entirely different than modern era where missiles are launched that fly 100 miles with a ballistic trajectory,

So "they now fly much higher 50 grand" where is all this dominance? F-15s and MIG-25s have flown above 60k feet for four decades, where is this hugely important factor coming into play? Should be easy for you right? Nope. Why aren't F-16s and F-18s getting knocked out of the sky everywhere by 70s era MIGs flying above 60k feet where they can't fly?

Every post you make where you can't give an example of modern combat kills above 50k feet is another admission of how naive you are.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Dont you hate when your co-conspirator goes off script..

 

[Daryl Hunt]

While the F-16 and F-35 were designed decades after the F-4, as a high end air superiority platform the Phantom retains significant capability advantages over the lighter platforms which make it an invaluable asset to the Turkish Air Force. The Phantom’s operational altitude is significantly higher than either the F-16 or the F-35, both of which are restricted to altitudes of little over 15km where the F-4 can operate at altitudes of 18km. This provides the Phantom with a significantly greater degree of survivability in air to air combat as well as when operating against enemy air defences. The F-4 is also considerably faster than the F-35, which restricted to speeds of Mach 1.6 is the slowest modern fighter in service, or the F-16 which retains a Mach 2 speed, with the Phantom able to engage adversaries at Mach 2.23 - making it one of the fastest U.S. fighters ever built. The fighter also carries a far heavier payload than its lighter counterparts, and due to its higher speed can impart more energy to the missiles it deploys than either the F-16 or the F-35 can.

Havent I told you this multiple times,,,think what will happen when they face modern opponents much less an F4...

Let's take a look at this. Let's do a short scenario of a two on two with the F-4 V F-16.

The F-4 upgraded like the Turkish F-4 has the same basic weapons as the F-16. It doesn't matter how many each has onboard. Both either have enough or not enough to get the job done. When closing, the first shot makes the other one go on the defensive. Since the F-16 shows up smaller on the radar, it will probably get first shot. Once it shoots, it gives away it's location and the F-4 shoots. Neither one is supersonic at this time since they can only do supersonic for a few minutes (like about 15 minutes). Neither will go supersonic at this time either as it will restrict their turn and burn capability. Both will probably out do the incoming pair of missiles because both will be aware of the incoming missiles. Missiles are very fast but can't manuever real well. Meanwhile, both are trying to close where their chance of a kill goes up as they close. At Medium Range the advantage goes to the F-4 because he can sling more missiles. But the Lawn Dart is highly maneuverable and can avoid the missiles he is aware of. The F-16 holds off launching at this point and tries to close. At short range, the advantage definitely goes to the F-16 who is one of the most agile fighters in the world while the F-4 is a real pig. Either one has to get within at least a 120 degree arc to fire the short ranged missiles with any degree of hope of a kill. The F-16 will get that solution first. In order to prevent that, the F-4 is going to have to go supersonic and vertical which is his strong point. But if the F-16 missile is already tracking he doesn't dare to that. He has to defeat the missile first and then do his up fast routine. If all pilots are equal, chances are, it's going to be a case of running out of weapons long before either runs out of fuel. In the F-4s case, he carries a lot more fuel and weapons so if he can stay alive and use his AB more, the F-16 will be the first to disengage. The score will probably be Zero to Zero. These ain't your Vietnam Era F-4s nor the 1980 F-16s. The F-4 is probably rated closer to a V 3.96 fighter against the F-16 V 4.3. Even with the F-16 having the advantage, it's probably going to be a draw unless a pilot makes an agrevious error.

Now, let's put 2 F-35As against 2 Turkish upgraded F-4s. This is going to be a very short paragraph. The Surviving F-4 Aircrew will be mumbling to themselves while hitting the silk, "I never saw what hit me". Just before that, they will be seeing radar from one place while being attack from another direction wondering what the hell is going on.

 

[cwise76]

Pew pew pew- pew pew

Boom

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Dont you hate when your co-conspirator goes off script..

Do you mean me? Did I go off script? I am retired Air Force. About the time you think you have the script figured out, someone changes the damned play. The only mistake he made was he sold an Aircraft Short when the Turkish F-4s are at the pinnacle of their life. At long range, only the F-15, F35 and F-22 have an advantage over it. I might add the Mig-31 to that list as well. And that is some pretty good company to be in.

Shorter Range, it's still a brick with really big engines. It has the same aerodynamics characteristics as a Barn Door with a pair of Atlas Missiles attached to it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And you are doing what manopad does as well. You are assuming the enemy will have the F-35 and F-16 with all the cool toys.

I've never seen MaxiPadOnTheStreet make this argument.

Not much of a chance of that. They may face the F-16 but it's going to be one of the earlier builds which the F-4 that Turkey has can easily match at a long range in radar, detection and weapons.

None of this supports the argument the author was making that Turkey's F-4 was a superior air to air fighter than F-35 or F-16.

The majority of Turkey's active duty F-16s are now block 50s, they are far superior aircraft to upgraded F-4s in just about any role.

You left out the new upgrades to the Turkish F-4Es. Like the ELTA 2032 fire control radar which would also be an upgrade if installed to the F-16 which the US has not done. Countries like India has upgraded it's F-16s to it though. The F-4 has the advantage that it has a larger radome there for slightly more range than the F-16. Israel is pretty proud of this system and they should be. The only birds with a better system are the F-15/14/22/35, SU-35 and Mig-31.

The F-4E Turkey uses look more like a Just Made Today Fighter for it's electronics sweet. It has all the neat toys like RWR sensors, automatic chaff and flare dispensors and more. Including the jamming and anti jamming pods.

There are more mods being installed every day on the Turkish F-4E and will be finished in 2020 making it a really hasty piece of work in an air battle or even as a Recon Bird. And unlike the F-16 and F-35, it has range, lots of range in comparison. While the US may not have use for it, countries on a budget like Turkey can certainly get a lot of bang for the buck.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I'm sorry to say this is tripe. The author makes the same assumption that MoronOnTheStreet does, that altitude and speed are the qualifiers of a superior aircraft. All it takes is quick glance through history of air-to-air engagements in the modern era, they are almost always at transonic speeds and optimal cruising altitudes. Nobody cruises around at 60k feet mach 2+ looking for a fight, and that's why max speed for jet fighters peaked over 40 years ago. Good sensors and long distance efficient dash speeds are far more useful in modern air combat than top speed.

To claim they are superior in air superiority to F-16s or F-35s is laughable, a modern F-16 would get easily get first look first shot on a Turkish F-4 and start the cycle of dodge or die for the F-4. It wouldn't even know it was fighting an F-35 until their wing exploded from AMRAAM fragments.

The F-15 has borrowed a tactic normally used by the F-4E and up. And no other fighter can prevent him for disengaging using it. He uses power and vertical flight. One second he is in front of you and you are going for a firing solution and the next he's just gone. He hits the AB, Emergency Power and goes UP. And then reengages when HE wants to. The F-15 is listed as somewhere between a top speed of Mach 2.5 and 2.8 (that's classified) but his actually top speed is higher than that. He has a setting higher than AB and Military. He is one of the few modern fighters that still has a War Emergency Power Setting that he should only use in an emergency. For a short time, the F-15 just might be the fastest air breathing manned fighter that has ever been made but the actual speed is classified. The F-4 also has a setting higher than AB and Military. His top speed at full AB and Military is listed as mach 2.3. But the F-4 has been known to exceed that. I have a feeling if either one were to use the WEPS settings for more than a couple or three minutes they would spitting engine parts out the back. Much like the Mig-25 did at Mach 3.2 and commonly does at Mach 2.8.

Both of these birds with the available radars to them ARE superior to the F-16 and F-35 for long range interception. They have HUGE radomes in comparison and more output power on their radars. Their detection range is also better. As an Air Superiority Fighter, The Turkish 2020 F-4 has many advantages over the F-16 and F-35. Unless you have to turn and burn that is.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Either way...still a great airplane !!!

I love them.

 

[westwall]

https://www.quora.com/What-key-fact...5-dogfights-so-lopsided-during-the-Korean-War
F-86 was slower and lower but it had better pilots and better guns and better gun sights, soooo 10:1 kill ratio

The cannons on the Migs were much better than the .50 cals on the F-86. Most of the US pilots were better, but as far as the 10:1 kill ratio go's, post war analysis lowers that by quite a bit. Still, overall i feel the Sabre was better than the 15, but there are arguments both ways.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

All I want for Xmas is this ...

It may not have air superiority ... but it's cool as balls.

The major problem with the F-104 was that it's ejection seat went down. That's not a good idea if you are close to the ground already!

 

[Daryl Hunt]

All I want for Xmas is this ...

It may not have air superiority ... but it's cool as balls.

The major problem with the F-104 was that it's ejection seat went down. That's not a good idea if you are close to the ground already!

The early versions (XF-104) did eject downward but the ones USAF bought all ejected upward when the Cat System became available. The G models all got the Martin Baker System and was good at very low altitude. They insane way the Germans flew the Starfighter, they needed all the help they could get.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Either way...still a great airplane !!!

I love them.

For much of the F-4 Fighter Mission over North Vietnam I have a feeling a slightly larger version of the F-5 would have done a better job. But the F-4 did a fair job against a nimble fighter. That 1.3 to one also involved the nickles that couldn't turn, dive or climb on their bombing runs. The F-4 actually did better than the numbers tell. But a longer ranged F-5 probably would have done a better job.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Either way...still a great airplane !!!

I love them.

When the Thunderbirds changed from the F-4 to the T-38 Thunder was lost. There is NOTHING equal to a F-4 right on the deck pouring the coals on. The ground shakes.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

 

[Sun Devil 92]

 

[DrainBamage]

You left out the new upgrades to the Turkish F-4Es. Like the ELTA 2032 fire control radar which would also be an upgrade if installed to the F-16 which the US has not done. Countries like India has upgraded it's F-16s to it though. The F-4 has the advantage that it has a larger radome there for slightly more range than the F-16. Israel is pretty proud of this system and they should be. The only birds with a better system are the F-15/14/22/35, SU-35 and Mig-31.

Nope, depends on the bird.

There are F-16s with APG-68s which is a much longer range radar than ELTA 2032, and UAE flies F-16s with APG-80 AESA radars. F-4s are gaining no advantage from their size of their nose since ELTA-2032 is a relatively compact lightweight radar (it's been installed in aircraft as small as F-5s) with a modest detection range of 80 miles, it's strength is in air-to-ground capabilities.

Superbugs have APG-79 AESA radars, which are also far superior to any mechanical pd like ELTA 2032.

 

[DrainBamage]

Both of these birds with the available radars to them ARE superior to the F-16 and F-35 for long range interception

Nope. ELTA-2032 has a detection range of 80 miles, and F-4 throws around the one of the largest RCS of any fighter flying. An F-16 with a better radar (and they do exist) would have an advantage in first look over an F-4 with ELTA-2032.

F-35 is in a completely different league as a long range interceptor over anything not named F-22. It's has the most advanced radar in the world (although APG-77 on F-22 is said to have about 15% longer range because bigger) and would get first look/shot, an advantage an F-4 doesn't enjoy. The plane that is going to see farther, identify from a distance even passively, remain undetected, and kill almost anything it comes across is the better interceptor.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Both of these birds with the available radars to them ARE superior to the F-16 and F-35 for long range interception

Nope. ELTA-2032 has a detection range of 80 miles, and F-4 throws around the one of the largest RCS of any fighter flying. An F-16 with a better radar (and they do exist) would have an advantage in first look over an F-4 with ELTA-2032.

F-35 is in a completely different league as a long range interceptor over anything not named F-22. It's has the most advanced radar in the world (although APG-77 on F-22 is said to have about 15% longer range because bigger) and would get first look/shot, an advantage an F-4 doesn't enjoy. The plane that is going to see farther, identify from a distance even passively, remain undetected, and kill almost anything it comes across is the better interceptor.

The F-16. like the F-18 has only room enough for a 28 inch radar dish. The F-4 has a 36 inch dish. Physics comes into play here. If both use the same basic system, the larger dish gets the better reception which just about evens out the size differences of the airframes.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You left out the new upgrades to the Turkish F-4Es. Like the ELTA 2032 fire control radar which would also be an upgrade if installed to the F-16 which the US has not done. Countries like India has upgraded it's F-16s to it though. The F-4 has the advantage that it has a larger radome there for slightly more range than the F-16. Israel is pretty proud of this system and they should be. The only birds with a better system are the F-15/14/22/35, SU-35 and Mig-31.

Nope, depends on the bird.

There are F-16s with APG-68s which is a much longer range radar than ELTA 2032, and UAE flies F-16s with APG-80 AESA radars. F-4s are gaining no advantage from their size of their nose since ELTA-2032 is a relatively compact lightweight radar (it's been installed in aircraft as small as F-5s) with a modest detection range of 80 miles, it's strength is in air-to-ground capabilities.

Superbugs have APG-79 AESA radars, which are also far superior to any mechanical pd like ELTA 2032.

Superbugs have room for only a 28 inch radar dish. The Israeli system is custom built for each country. In the case of Turkey for their F-4Es, they provide a bigger (36 in) disk which is more receptive than the 28 in that is used in both the F18 and the F-16. The F-4 uses the same size Disk as the F-15. But the Fighter with the disk to beat is the Mig-31 with it's whopping 18 inch disk. But you have to have room for it. And bigger is better for reception when all other things are equal.