Tender Mercies: A Roosevelt Love Story

[Camp]

Don't know why you would think that. ...

Because she took you to the woodshed for the 10,000th time.

She has never bested me in any of her anti-FDR threads and certainly has not taken me or anyone else to the "woodshed" in this one. We get it, you hate FDR for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps and dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war. But none of the nonsense the OP promotes takes anyone to a woodshed of means diddly squat on how Americans and the world views the world leader that saved America and the world 75 or 80 years ago.

This is all you ever manage: denying facts, idol worship, and repeating logical fallacies like the Rainman of losing arguments on the internet.

Ya, how many new adherents to PC's nutty conspiracy theory do you think she got with this thread?

Logical fallacy again.

Not a logical fallacy at all. It is a question asking for a subjective or an objective response. You do not want to respond so you are evading a response by calling the question a logical fallacy.

 

[rightwinger]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
Outside of failed plots to assassinate Hitler they had no capability to “end the war”

 

[Camp]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

That is called a national security measure to make sure all concerned and even those on the edge of concern knew that such discussions were of the highest secret classification and could only be mentioned under the most secret conditions and protocols.

You really are the dunce in this discussion.

 

[PoliticalChic]

9. This is not to say that Roosevelt was the only one who bent over to the Left.
Hardly.
There are similar anti-America statists, Leftists, slithering all over this board.


The Leftists, like John Dewey, George Bernard Shaw, Fabian Socialists Beatrice and Sidney Webb, H.G. Wells, etc., like FDR, never wavered.
Government is god, human lives are expendable, slavery is freedom.




"Stalin's show trials which led to the deaths of millions of people in the Soviet Union during the 1930s were strongly defended by the British author and playwright George Bernard Shaw.

An extraordinary document to be auctioned at Sotheby's in London next month reveals that Shaw continued to defend the Russian leader's excesses despite growing doubts on the political Left in Britain.

Shaw, who became an apologist for Stalin after being invited to visit the Soviet Union in 1931, was sent a typewritten questionnaire about one of the early show trials by the journalist Dorothy Royal.

They often have to be pushed off the ladder with a rope around their necks," wrote Shaw, apparently justifying Stalin's execution of many of those who had led the Bolshevik revolution in 1917.

Shaw argued that what he called "this Russian trial" had been exaggerated and he rejected suggestions that the accused had only pleaded guilty because they had been drugged or tortured.


At least 720,000 people were executed in the terror that followed. Millions more died from hunger and ill-treatment in concentration camps."
How Shaw defended Stalin's mass killings


“You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs"




“Some ideas are so stupid, only an intellectual could believe them.” George Orwell

 

[Unkotare]

Because she took you to the woodshed for the 10,000th time.

She has never bested me in any of her anti-FDR threads and certainly has not taken me or anyone else to the "woodshed" in this one. We get it, you hate FDR for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps and dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war. But none of the nonsense the OP promotes takes anyone to a woodshed of means diddly squat on how Americans and the world views the world leader that saved America and the world 75 or 80 years ago.

This is all you ever manage: denying facts, idol worship, and repeating logical fallacies like the Rainman of losing arguments on the internet.

Ya, how many new adherents to PC's nutty conspiracy theory do you think she got with this thread?

Logical fallacy again.

Not a logical fallacy at all. It is a question asking for a subjective or an objective response. You do not want to respond so you are evading a response by calling the question a logical fallacy.

I am not surprised that you don’t understand what a logical fallacy is given how incessantly you fall back upon them.

 

[Unkotare]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Of course, you are correct.

Harry Hopkins biographer, George McJimsey, makes the claim that, after Stalin and his spies in the administration demanded that the Allies never open communication with the anti-Hitler Germans, and accept only unconditional surrender- which would leave Germany in no condition to hinder Stalin's post war efforts to control all of Europe, Roosevelt viewed "the doctrine as an approach to Stalin...a device, along with Lend Lease aid and the promise of a second front for convincing Stalin of his good will."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy,"
by George McJimsey, , p. 278-279


There were many anti-Nazi Germans who could have aided in the war efforts. Stalin would not allow their participation in the war because they were anti-communist as well. These Germans wanted surrender, but not the 'unconditional surrender' that Stalin imposed on Roosevelt.


"Most importantly, the (anti-Nazi, anti-communist) opposition to Hitler would have to be assured that the people who were about to risk their lives in an attempt to overthrow Hitlerwould, if they succeeded, be faced with something better than the "unconditional surrender" formula proclaimed as a British-American war aim at the Casablanca Conference of Churchill and Roosevelt in January 1943.

Von Papen needed to know "whether they would grant, to a German Government which met democratic requirements, the rights to which Germany's history and position entitled her. This must be the decisive factor in any further step (von Papen,Memoirs, p. 499; and Albert C. Wedemeyer,Wedemeyer Reports!New York: Henry Holt & Co., 1958, p. 417.)."


a. "In March, 1944, von Papen decided to make another effort to persuade FDR, through Earle, to mitigate "unconditional surrender" and accept a separate surrender of the German armies to the Western Allies. He decided, in case of favorable reply to his probe, to secretly fly Earle to Germany for a discussion of terms and conditions with two members of the Beck-Goerdeler resistance group: Count Gottfried Bismarck (grandson of the Iron Chancellor) and Berlin Chief of Police, Count Wolf-Heinrich Helldorf (von Papen,Memoirs, p. 522; and Wedemeyer,Wedemeyer Reports!, p. 418).


b. One of the leaders of the anti-Nazi, and anti-communist underground in Germany was "Wilhelm Franz Canaris(1 January 1887 – 9 April 1945) was aGerman admiraland chief of theAbwehr, the German military intelligence service, from 1935 to 1944. During the Second World War, he was among the military officers involved in theclandestine oppositiontoAdolf Hitlerand theNazi regime. He was executed inFlossenbürg concentration campfor the act of high treason." Wilhelm Canaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Again....Canaris was the head of German military intelligence who, for years, tried to align with the Allies to overthrow Hitler.

Stalin demanded that no contact with the anti-Nazi underground be allowed.....and Roosevelt obeyed, like a good little slave.

 

[PoliticalChic]

....there was a large anti-Nazi, anti-communist German underground.

'In a certain sense there was not a single year between 1933 and 1945 during which there was not some contact or attempt at contact, between the anti-Hitler opposition and either Britain or the Unites States, or both. The Greatest War Crime

Wilhelm Canaris

Franz von Papen

Colonel General Ludwig Beck Beginning in early 1937,"the first 'cell' of the Resistance Movement" was formed by Ludwig Beck, Army Chief of staff, and Carl Goerdeler, who had just resigned as Mayor of Leipzig as a gesture in defiance of Nazi anti-Semitism (Ritter, Goerdeler's Struggle, pp. 35-3G, 75-79). As financial adviser to the Robert Bosch firm of Stuttgart, Goerdeler was sent abroad by his employer "on business" between early 1937 and late 1939 to the U.S., Britain, Switzerland, Palestine and a dozen other countries, making contact with persons interested in the overthrow of Hitler's regime (Ibid, pp. 47, 81, 83, 305, 484; and Hoffmann, German Resistance, p. 153). The Greatest War Crime


Carl Friedrich Goerderler

Ulrich von Hassell

Johannes Popitz

Kurt von Hammerstein

Job Wilhelm Georg Erdmann Erwin von Witzleben (4 December 1881 – 8 August 1944) was a German officer, by 1940 in the rank of a Field Marshal(Generalfeldmarschall), and army commander in the Second World War. A leading conspirator in the 20 July plot,[1]he was designated to become Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht armed forces in a post-Nazi regime Erwin von Witzleben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.General Edward Wagner

General Georg Thomas

Major General Hans Oster

General Friederich Olbricht

Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg

Wilhelm Leuchner

Julius Leber

Helmuth von Moltke

Baron Kurt von Lersner

Most importantly, the opposition to Hitler would have to be assured that the people who were about to risk their lives in an attempt to overthrow Hitler would, if they succeeded, be faced with something better than the "unconditional surrender" formula proclaimed as a British-American war aim at the Casablanca Conference of Churchill and Roosevelt in January 1943. Von Papen needed to know "whether they would grant, to a German Government which met democratic requirements, the rights to which Germany's history and position entitled her. This must be the decisive factor in any further step (von Papen,Memoirs, p. 499; and Albert C. Wedemeyer, Wedemeyer Reports! New York: Henry Holt & Co., 1958, p. 417.)."


Franz Von Papen promised to get in touch with FDR. He decided to ask his friend, Baron Kurt von Lersner (a friend of FDR) to make contact with the former governor of Pennsylvania, Commander George H. Earle, FDR's personal representative (i.e., eyes and ears) for the Balkans, stationed in Istanbul. In the meantime, German Intelligence chief, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, long in contact with the Beck-Goerdeler group, had also decided to make the same attempt through Navy Captain Paul Leverkuehn, an internationally-known lawyer and acquaintance of William J. Donovan, head of the U.S. Office of Strategic Services (Heinz Hoehne, Canaris, trans. J. Maxwell Brownjohn Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1979, pp. 482-83; Ritter, Goerdeler's Struggle; and von Papen, Memoirs, pp. 488-89, 499.).

 

[CrusaderFrank]

a. "Hell, why do we care what those goddamn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation."
Ladislas Farago, Patton: Ordeal and Triumph

Yet we did not fight them before they vanished so he was wrong now wasn't he?

How many more would have died if we did fight them at that time? How different would the world look today if we had?

Eastern Europe and Washington DC would have been free of Communism for over 70 years!!!!

 

[rightwinger]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

 

[Unkotare]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

Wallowing in ignorance is not the way to make a point.

 

[rightwinger]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

Wallowing in ignorance is not the way to make a point.

Still wrong

 

[Unkotare]

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

Wallowing in ignorance is not the way to make a point.

Still wrong

Typical liberal ^^^

 

[PoliticalChic]

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

Wallowing in ignorance is not the way to make a point.

Still wrong

Typical liberal ^^^

And not just liberal.....

During Jack Cafferty's time as a co-anchor of CNN's morning program, he reported on March 31, 2004 that "It's a red-letter day here in America. Air America, that communist radio network, starts broadcasting in a little while." Cafferty was unyielding when CNN colleague Soledad O'Brien responded by saying that the new talk-radio network was not communist but liberal. He replied: "Well. Aren't they synonymous?"

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is the point in the OP simply reposts the same cut and paste posts over and over, all the while continuing to evade answering the specific questions she has been challenged with by multiple participants in the thread.

One would think explaining who a major source being used in a debate or message board discussion is would be a legitimate question. PoliticalChic insist on using this controversial source over and over, but refuses to explain who or what the source is.

It's shameful that a thread like this one is posted in a history forum as if it represented legitimate history when it probably should be in a conspiracy forum or the rubber room.

"... a personal directive from the president of the United States 'in his capacity as commander in chief forbidding all mention of the German resistance."

Are you ready to admit that the post obliterated you????

Speak up, you dunce.

That is called a national security measure to make sure all concerned and even those on the edge of concern knew that such discussions were of the highest secret classification and could only be mentioned under the most secret conditions and protocols.

You really are the dunce in this discussion.

In order to deny that the policy, 'unconditional surrender,' was advantageous, even necessary, only to the Soviet Communists, one must argue that America could not agree to give anti-Nazi, anti-communist Germans, who were helpful to the United States, any special consideration after they deposed Hitler, and surrendered.



But we did exactly that for lots of Germans!



a. Due to Roosevelt, we had no spying infrastucture in Russia, and needed same after the war. Germans did....and the anti-Nazi, anti-communist Germans became our CIA.

"Gehlen Organization or Gehlen Org was an intelligence agency established in June 1946 by U.S. occupation authorities in the United States Zone of Germany, and consisted of former members of the 12th Department of the German Army General Staff (Foreign Armies East, or FHO). It carries the name of Wehrmacht Major general Reinhard Gehlen, head of the German military intelligence in the Eastern Frontduring World War II....

The Org was for many years the only eyes and ears of the CIA on the ground in theSoviet Bloc nations during the Cold War. The CIA kept close tabs on the Gehlen group: the Org supplied the manpower while the CIA supplied the material needs for clandestine operations, including funding, cars and airplanes.

Every German POW returning from Soviet captivity to West Germany between 1947 and 1955 was interviewed by Org agents. Those returnees who were forced to work in Soviet industries and construction and were willing to participate, represented an incomparable source of information, a post-war, up-to-date picture of the Soviet empire as it evolved.[2]"
. Gehlen Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




b. Need I mention Wernher von Braun, and the German rocket scientists who aided America post-war, and became NASA?



Of course the United States could have accepted surrender....years before 1945.
But that would have meant insulting the world's most proficient homicidal killer, Roosevelt's lord and master, Joseph 'Koba' Stalin.

 

[rightwinger]

German Resistance was next to non existent in WWII
...

Not true.

Wrong

Wallowing in ignorance is not the way to make a point.

Still wrong

Typical liberal ^^^

Thank you

 

[Camp]

The OP does not understand or have knowledge of why unconditional surrender has been a military strategy since armies began fighting each other with sharpened sticks and sling shots, spears and arrows.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The OP does not understand or have knowledge of why unconditional surrender has been a military strategy since armies began fighting each other with sharpened sticks and sling shots, spears and arrows.

Clearly, it is you who pretends not to understand.

The demand for 'unconditional surrender' came directly from the Kremlin, and Roosevelt, dutifully, acquiesced to Stalin.

The very first use of the phrase 'unconditional surrender" at Casablanca was by Harry Hopkins. One day earlier, January 23, before the President announced it, Hopkins told the grand vizier of Morocco, "The war will be pursued until Germany, Italy, and Japan agree to unconditional surrender."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy," by George McJimsey, p.277
and FRUS: Washington and Casablanca, p. 703.


Harry Hopkins.....
Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins


Pretty much the same role you fill, huh?

 

[rightwinger]

The OP does not understand or have knowledge of why unconditional surrender has been a military strategy since armies began fighting each other with sharpened sticks and sling shots, spears and arrows.

The OP wanted Germany to win WWII

 

[Camp]

The OP does not understand or have knowledge of why unconditional surrender has been a military strategy since armies began fighting each other with sharpened sticks and sling shots, spears and arrows.

Clearly, it is you who pretends not to understand.

The demand for 'unconditional surrender' came directly from the Kremlin, and Roosevelt, dutifully, acquiesced to Stalin.

The very first use of the phrase 'unconditional surrender" at Casablanca was by Harry Hopkins. One day earlier, January 23, before the President announced it, Hopkins told the grand vizier of Morocco, "The war will be pursued until Germany, Italy, and Japan agree to unconditional surrender."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy," by George McJimsey, p.277
and FRUS: Washington and Casablanca, p. 703.


Harry Hopkins.....
Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins


Pretty much the same role you fill, huh?

Hopkin's was the eyes and ears of America inside the Kremlin. He was a spy for the USA and ingratiated himself into the Soviet High Command and Stalin's inner circle at great risk to his life. In doing so he opened himself up for attack as a Stalin dupe or friend after his death.
The controversy about Hopkins seems never ending, but here is what Gen. George Marshall had to say about him.

"He was a heroic figure of the war. He rendered a service to his country which will never even vaguely be appreciated."
Gen. George C. Marshall