Teacher Absence, Student Reward

[Jroc]

We've got to have competition in public schools, they should be run by private entities anyway, if they don't do the job then you fire them and get people who can. There is too much cronyism going on in the school system just like everything else run by the government

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is more to a 'good test' than its reliability and validity; a test measuring the retention of facts is easily demonstrated by rats in a maze. Did all of these well performing children sit still and like good little robots do their lesson plans, learn facts and never ask, "Why?"

How were the kids in MA taught, and what form of test was administered? Was it andobjective test, a fill in the blank test, a vocabulary test, an essay test or all of the above? Was there any demonstration by the students of deductive or inductive reasoning, critical thinking and problems solving?

 

[Truthmatters]

Sans testing, school is merely baby sitting. That is exactly where Liberal educrats have brought us.

Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and “Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter)

We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests.

For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

You can teach anyone to regurgitate.

You have to inspire the love of information.

one is retained for life the other is retained until the test is over

It is so very easy to take your posts and point out the fallacies that I almost feel guilty in doing so....

But....

1. Teachers, like anyone else, would like to be praised, be successful.

True?


2. If there were any validity to you inane "You can teach anyone to regurgitate"....


...why wouldn't they do so?



This, from the OP:
The key is recognizing the importance of good tests.

a. “Teaching to the test” is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing one’s pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission!
From “Troublemaker,” by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.

Becuase then the children never learn and soon forget the "useless" information if you dont teach them to know WHY they should want to learn the info

 

[Truthmatters]

Teach a child to LOVE learning.

that is the key

 

[squeeze berry]

IME most teenage students could care less about anything but social networking and playing video games.

They don't need to work, they are just waiting until they are " discovered"

Wait until reality has set in for the parents who have spoiled and mollycoddled them.

thirty and living in the basement.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There is more to a 'good test' than its reliability and validity; a test measuring the retention of facts is easily demonstrated by rats in a maze. Did all of these well performing children sit still and like good little robots do their lesson plans, learn facts and never ask, "Why?"

How were the kids in MA taught, and what form of test was administered? Was it andobjective test, a fill in the blank test, a vocabulary test, an essay test or all of the above? Was there any demonstration by the students of deductive or inductive reasoning, critical thinking and problems solving?

Massachusetts is a pretty large state.

Why would you believe that every classroom carried on in the same manner?
Isn't that silly?
All sorts of permutations applied.

Rather, that facts and data filled out the lessons rather than the usual Liberal pap and indoctrination....the arts and crafts that has replaced science,....and the rubber-stamp of subjectivity in marking....

...therein lies the difference.

 

[PoliticalChic]

IME most teenage students could care less about anything but social networking and playing video games.

They don't need to work, they are just waiting until they are " discovered"

Wait until reality has set in for the parents who have spoiled and mollycoddled them.

thirty and living in the basement.

Could that be because the kids have caught on to the scam, and know that if the teacher fails too many, it is the teacher who will be blamed?

That's what child-centered has brought.....

 

[squeeze berry]

IME most teenage students could care less about anything but social networking and playing video games.

They don't need to work, they are just waiting until they are " discovered"

Wait until reality has set in for the parents who have spoiled and mollycoddled them.

thirty and living in the basement.

Could that be because the kids have caught on to the scam, and know that if the teacher fails too many, it is the teacher who will be blamed?

That's what child-centered has brought.....

that's much of it.


the parents have caught on too.

parents are always demanding teachers change grades/call teachers on the carpet/ complain to administration

 

[PoliticalChic]

IME most teenage students could care less about anything but social networking and playing video games.

They don't need to work, they are just waiting until they are " discovered"

Wait until reality has set in for the parents who have spoiled and mollycoddled them.

thirty and living in the basement.

Could that be because the kids have caught on to the scam, and know that if the teacher fails too many, it is the teacher who will be blamed?

That's what child-centered has brought.....

that's much of it.


the parents have caught on too.

parents are always demanding teachers change grades/call teachers on the carpet/ complain to administration

I have a good friend whose school had an end-of-year-report which included "If less than 85% passed, explain the reason why."

He wrote "Because more than 15% failed."



Yes, he had tenure.

 

[ogibillm]

i find it extremely difficult to believe that politicalchic is educated enough to have been a school superintendent

 

[PoliticalChic]

You can teach anyone to regurgitate.

You have to inspire the love of information.

one is retained for life the other is retained until the test is over

It is so very easy to take your posts and point out the fallacies that I almost feel guilty in doing so....

But....

1. Teachers, like anyone else, would like to be praised, be successful.

True?


2. If there were any validity to you inane "You can teach anyone to regurgitate"....


...why wouldn't they do so?



This, from the OP:
The key is recognizing the importance of good tests.

a. “Teaching to the test” is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing one’s pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission!
From “Troublemaker,” by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.

Becuase then the children never learn and soon forget the "useless" information if you dont teach them to know WHY they should want to learn the info

Gee....a moment ago you said "You can teach anyone to regurgitate"


Now it's not such a good idea?



That's an interesting technique to win every argument!

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is more to a 'good test' than its reliability and validity; a test measuring the retention of facts is easily demonstrated by rats in a maze. Did all of these well performing children sit still and like good little robots do their lesson plans, learn facts and never ask, "Why?"

How were the kids in MA taught, and what form of test was administered? Was it andobjective test, a fill in the blank test, a vocabulary test, an essay test or all of the above? Was there any demonstration by the students of deductive or inductive reasoning, critical thinking and problems solving?

Massachusetts is a pretty large state.

Why would you believe that every classroom carried on in the same manner?
Isn't that silly?
All sorts of permutations applied.

Rather, that facts and data filled out the lessons rather than the usual Liberal pap and indoctrination....the arts and crafts that has replaced science,....and the rubber-stamp of subjectivity in marking....

...therein lies the difference.

Why not say, "I don't know" and be honest for once.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There is more to a 'good test' than its reliability and validity; a test measuring the retention of facts is easily demonstrated by rats in a maze. Did all of these well performing children sit still and like good little robots do their lesson plans, learn facts and never ask, "Why?"

How were the kids in MA taught, and what form of test was administered? Was it andobjective test, a fill in the blank test, a vocabulary test, an essay test or all of the above? Was there any demonstration by the students of deductive or inductive reasoning, critical thinking and problems solving?

Massachusetts is a pretty large state.

Why would you believe that every classroom carried on in the same manner?
Isn't that silly?
All sorts of permutations applied.

Rather, that facts and data filled out the lessons rather than the usual Liberal pap and indoctrination....the arts and crafts that has replaced science,....and the rubber-stamp of subjectivity in marking....

...therein lies the difference.

Why not say, "I don't know" and be honest for once.

'Cause I didn't want to take the answer you need for every single subject there is.


Proof? Sure.
Let's discuss 'honesty.'

You propounding honesty would be like Charlie Sheen doing a testimonial for eHarmony.



Looking forward to your repeat of that highlight-reel faceplant.

 

[PoliticalChic]

IME most teenage students could care less about anything but social networking and playing video games.

They don't need to work, they are just waiting until they are " discovered"

Wait until reality has set in for the parents who have spoiled and mollycoddled them.

thirty and living in the basement.

I recognize the tongue-in-cheek aspect of your post....but I wonder you would agree that many fit the following description.

I found this passage in Andrew Davidson’s novel, “The Gargoyle.” It resonates with me, and seems that it represents a weakness in the school system, vis-à-vis brighter students:

“Although I was never much for school, this was not because I believed education an inferior pursuit. Far from it: my problem was always that school interfered with matters more fascinating. The courses were designed to teach practical information but, because I understood the core concepts so quickly, they could not hold my interest. I was always distracted by the esoterica that might appear in a textbook’s footnote or a teacher’s offhand remark. For example: if my geometry teacher mentioned something about Galileo giving lectures on the physical structure of Hell, it became impossible for me to refocus my interest when he returned to talking about the sides of a parallelogram. I would skip the next three classes to visit the library, reading everything I could on Galileo, and when I returned to the school I would fail the next math test because it did not include any questions about the Inquisition. This passion for self-directed learning has remained….”

 

[initforme]

As a parent of 3 college graduates who had a great education in a small rural town because of the teachers they had, I saw that

The memorizing of facts such as those of american history classes to me are a total and utter waste of time. Teach the kids to read about the events and judge them criticially, be critical of our founding fathers, point out their faults and strengths, is much more valuable than memorizing useless american history facts. When a teacher wants kids to memorize stuff like this it angers me. Schools need to focus on math and science and problem solving.

My kids scored well on tests because the teachers spent hours upon hours teaching to the test and frankly I cant blame them. If I am judged by test scores then it is my job to SOLELY AND ONLY TEACH TO THE TEST, nothing else. A mechanic doesnt get tested on baking. If parents demand high test scores then any parent with a brain cell funtioning(in american this is a small percentage now), then the whole entire curriculum is soley based on the test nothing more. Otherwise the system is set up to fail from the beginning. SO TEACH ONLY TO THE TEST IF THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORANTANT.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As a parent of 3 college graduates who had a great education in a small rural town because of the teachers they had, I saw that

The memorizing of facts such as those of american history classes to me are a total and utter waste of time. Teach the kids to read about the events and judge them criticially, be critical of our founding fathers, point out their faults and strengths, is much more valuable than memorizing useless american history facts. When a teacher wants kids to memorize stuff like this it angers me. Schools need to focus on math and science and problem solving.

My kids scored well on tests because the teachers spent hours upon hours teaching to the test and frankly I cant blame them. If I am judged by test scores then it is my job to SOLELY AND ONLY TEACH TO THE TEST, nothing else. A mechanic doesnt get tested on baking. If parents demand high test scores then any parent with a brain cell funtioning(in american this is a small percentage now), then the whole entire curriculum is soley based on the test nothing more. Otherwise the system is set up to fail from the beginning. SO TEACH ONLY TO THE TEST IF THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORANTANT.

Of course, you're dead wrong.


How about you consider the opinion of an expert who has shown the results of content-rich curricula:

“I came to see that the text alone is not enough,” Hirsch said to me recently at his Charlottesville, Virginia, home. “The unspoken—that is, relevant background knowledge—is absolutely crucial in reading a text.”… he received an endowed professorship and became chairman of the English department at the University of Virginia.[He found that] the reading and writing skills of many incoming students were poor, sure to handicap them in their future academic work. In trying to figure out how to close this “literacy gap,” Hirsch conducted an experiment on reading comprehension, using two groups of college students. Members of the first group possessed broad background knowledge in subjects like history, geography, civics, the arts, and basic science; members of the second, often from disadvantaged homes, lacked such knowledge. The knowledgeable students, it turned out, could far more easily comprehend and analyze difficult college-level texts (both fiction and nonfiction) than their poorly informed brethren could. Hirsch had discovered “a way to measure the variations in reading skill attributable to variations in the relevant background knowledge of audiences.”

Hirsch was also convinced that the problem of inadequate background knowledge began in the early grades. Elementary school teachers thus had to be more explicit about imparting such knowledge to students—indeed, this was even more important than teaching the “skills” of reading and writing, Hirsch believed. Hirsch’s insight contravened the conventional wisdom in the nation’s education schools: that teaching facts was unimportant, and that students instead should learn “how to” skills. …expanded the argument in a 1983 article, titled “Cultural Literacy,” in The American Scholar.
E. D. Hirsch’s Curriculum for Democracy by Sol Stern, City Journal Autumn 2009

 

[initforme]

so then we should be teaching to the test. Just what I have been saying. If you are going to use test scores to base things on, then the test must be taught to.

 

[PoliticalChic]

so then we should be teaching to the test. Just what I have been saying. If you are going to use test scores to base things on, then the test must be taught to.

Absolutely.


If the test doesn't appraise the standards, change the test.

And if a teacher's students regularly fall below on the test......you know who to blame.


I know just what teachers say about difficult students.....if that can be shown- we're speaking of discipline, behavior- get those students out.

 

[initforme]

"we're speaking of discipline, behavior- get those students out."

Just how do you do that? Perhaps you ship a boatload of the disruptive students to higher performing schools. Now their test scores plummet. Now what? Some kids simply dont want to learn. Why? Who exactly knows but they have a tendency to disrupt the process. If you take a kid with a strong steay home structure whose parents spend time with them and encourage them they will test just fine. Those who dont even try during the test or during school...what do you do with them? Where do they go?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"we're speaking of discipline, behavior- get those students out."

Just how do you do that? Perhaps you ship a boatload of the disruptive students to higher performing schools. Now their test scores plummet. Now what? Some kids simply dont want to learn. Why? Who exactly knows but they have a tendency to disrupt the process. If you take a kid with a strong steay home structure whose parents spend time with them and encourage them they will test just fine. Those who dont even try during the test or during school...what do you do with them? Where do they go?

1. Reconstitute vocational schools.

2. Make and enforce a discipline code, with an accumulation of demerits resulting in expulsion. Triage.

3. The local high school has close to 4,000 students....and no sports teams other than chess.
Many of the potential discipline problems, it seems, opt for other schools. This school has far fewer problems.

4. Vouchers. Just as the nation did with the G.I Bill....use in any school of one's choice.