Sympathy for the Devil?

[Iceweasel]

Hey I got an idea whursmykeys.

How about I get to water board you for days on end. Looking for that "chip" that you hid. But you don't know that the chip got moved and you can't tell me where it is. No matter how many water boards you ride.

Are you being tortured then? If you don't have any information to give and keep on getting water boarded, is that
"torture"?

You make the call dude. You seem to be real sure water boarding isn't torture. But when you are being water boarded and can't tell anyone anything of value, what is it then?

So it either works or it doesn't work, which is it? How do you think they found Osama anyway? Google?

But would you waterboard someone that knew where your child about to die was? Or are you another one of those libs that lies for political gain that would in reality act very differently?

 

[zeke]

But would you waterboard someone that knew where your child about to die was?

Sure I would. But I would at least be honest about it and acknowledge that I was doing it to torture for revenge.
Would you be that honest? Probably not.

BTW, is that what we were torturing for, looking for Dick and George's daughters?

So it either works or it doesn't work, which is it? How do you think they found Osama anyway?

OBL was not found by torturing some dude 5 years before OBL was found and killed. WTF? You think he was found from the torture don't cha?

But noticed you wouldn't say that if we repeatedly water boarded someone who had no information to give, is that torture or not?

 

[Iceweasel]

But would you waterboard someone that knew where your child about to die was?

Sure I would. But I would at least be honest about it and acknowledge that I was doing it to torture for revenge.
Would you be that honest? Probably not.

BTW, is that what we were torturing for, looking for Dick and George's daughters?

So it either works or it doesn't work, which is it? How do you think they found Osama anyway?

OBL was not found by torturing some dude 5 years before OBL was found and killed. WTF? You think he was found from the torture don't cha?

But noticed you wouldn't say that if we repeatedly water boarded someone who had no information to give, is that torture or not?

The intel did lead to Osama eventually, I was there but that's what they say. I wasn't asked your question, you need to define torture. For me, listening to Whoopie Goldberg would be torture, I'd tell you anything I new.

This debate was handled long ago, torture was defined as permanent injury and waterboarding was legally considered 'enhanced interrogation'. We are not allowed to torture our own troops but some so get waterboarded in training. So if it's torture, the military is guilty of gross crimes against the UCMJ.

 

[Camp]

But would you waterboard someone that knew where your child about to die was?

Sure I would. But I would at least be honest about it and acknowledge that I was doing it to torture for revenge.
Would you be that honest? Probably not.

BTW, is that what we were torturing for, looking for Dick and George's daughters?

So it either works or it doesn't work, which is it? How do you think they found Osama anyway?

OBL was not found by torturing some dude 5 years before OBL was found and killed. WTF? You think he was found from the torture don't cha?

But noticed you wouldn't say that if we repeatedly water boarded someone who had no information to give, is that torture or not?

The intel did lead to Osama eventually, I was there but that's what they say. I wasn't asked your question, you need to define torture. For me, listening to Whoopie Goldberg would be torture, I'd tell you anything I new.

This debate was handled long ago, torture was defined as permanent injury and waterboarding was legally considered 'enhanced interrogation'. We are not allowed to torture our own troops but some so get waterboarded in training. So if it's torture, the military is guilty of gross crimes against the UCMJ.

Where do you get this definition of torture being an act that has to cause permanent injury or that water boarding was considered legal? Both are key elements in the current debate. That definition doesn't agree with international law and ignores the fact that water boarding has been defined as illegal in the past. The fact is that water boarding was listed as torture by the US government to convict Japanese after WWII. So, who changed the technique from illegal to legal?

 

[Nosmo King]

You are in a rhetorical minefield, ain't ya? The last thing you want to address is the ACTUAL TORTURE. Water boarding, probes inserted, mock executions. Dance around, simpleton, dance! You don't have what it takes to discuss the actual torture because either you know in whatever recesses of your being you keep your honesty, it was indeed torture. Or you are too dense to comprehend what torture really is.

I'll leave it to others to make that determination on their own. It should not be tough for anyone with more guts than you.

I should have known you were in no way fit to have a serious discussion. Perhaps if the topic was toilets you might do better. Maybe.
We are trying to determine what you think "the actual torture" is. So far it seems anything the Bush Administration did was actual torture, while anything the Obama Administration does is okey dokey.

And there's yet another sidestep. Once you have been cornered, you drag good oil' Obama into the mix.

You sir, are truly an idiot.

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

If torture worked......I probably would. It doesn't. So.....nope.

So then we would disagree..............and that is all.....................

Now please continue with the BS that we are raping little girls and other shit which are absolute lies on this thread........don't remember whether it was you or the old school punk who stated that though.

It isn't a disagreement. It's you being wrong. Torture does not work. If you tortured someone who had your kid and was threatening to kill, you'd likely do more harm than good. It's an emotional reaction. It isn't an intelligent one.

And...keep your shit straight.

Again, we disagree............it's that simple..........

Der.....no. You are wrong. It isn't a disagreement when you are wrong. It is you being wrong. Identify it accurately please.

Wow, your argument continues to be: Torture doesnt work because torture doesnt work. Here's a link to some asshole saying that as well.
Opinion is not fact. Repeat that sentence about 1000 times and then come back to us.

Torture is a function of punishment, which may or may not serve a further purpose, such as gaining information.

It is in this very notion that the Left is dead ass wrong; they assume we were debriefing these prisoners, with a vengeance. We were not. We were making their life miserable, as a means to help them help us.

You see kids, they were more inclined to murder us. It seems they were indoctrinated to hate us. As a result they were not inclined to help us. So... we provided them with a couple of options.

- Continue to not help us and be VERY uncomfortable.

- Help us and comfort up.

As you saw with the death of Osama, KSM eventually took "DOOR #2!". As they all have... . As you would, as anyone you've ever met would.

The thing to recognize here is the deceptive nature of this 'Torture myth'. Its truly a subversive lie. Serving not just as a political wedge, but a political wedge that lends aid and comfort to our enemies.

The good news is that it serves as a beacon. Where ever we find the myth being perpetrated, we find one whose purpose is to aid and comfort our enemy, OKA: Our Enemy.

Now, that brings the answer to the most commonly asked question in the US Culture today: "How did our nation become so divided?" The answer to which is: "We allowed our enemy to have a voice, to promote their foreign ideas hostile to the principles that define and sustain our nation."

Simple stuff.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

I believe you are full of shit. I think you were never tortured. I think that you are a marine like I'm the king of England. I think if you were ever waterboarded for real.....meaning that yiu didn't know it was a ******* test....you'd admit to sucking your daddy's dick while your dog licked peanut butter out of your asshole.

And that is relevant to what?

With regard to Water-boarding...

I tell ya what scamp. I'll give you a chance to earn $100,000 in 24 hours. All I'll ask of you is $10,000.

Now, I will give the money to my Attorney who will contact your attorney, he'll set it all up. They'll draw up the documents wherein your attorney holds you $10k in escrow and mine will hold my $100K in escrow.

There's a little process you'll need to go through, wherein you'll hide the chip.

I'll then bring you in and we'll go to work.

And I have no problem telling you exactly how it will go down.

I'll water-board you, and I am highly trained in the application of such... and with you knowing full well that I have absolutely no intentions of harming you (10K, criminal prosecution, etc, etc...).

I will strap your ass to a decline, (head down), pull a towel over your face, while pouring increasing volumes of water into your nose... as I'm doing so, my associate will be pressing down on your chest to force air from your lungs. At some point you're going to realize that you're sinuses are on FIRE because they're filled with water and that you're out of air.

You may be in exquisite physical condition, routinely swimming for long distances under water, and as a result well conditioned for extensive periods of air deprivation. If so, you've subjected yourself to considerably more 'stress' than a fat ass old man will be likely to endure... but that's no problem for me, so don't sweat it.

Now then, when the realization that you're out of air and will very soon pass out as your brain starts turning off the lights... comes rockin' in... you're going to experience an instinctive reaction, over which you have literally no control.

Now I don't mind tellin' ya, it is scary as **** the first time... but that is NOTHING like the second time and you don't want to know what your mind does going into the third set.

My experience tells me that IF you are of an exquisite physical specimen, you'll tell me where that chip is, somewhere in and around, round 6.

If not you'll choke it up in round 2...


But not to worry, because no matter what ya do... whatever you tell me, I send an associate out to retrieve my chip and if he doesn't find it, we start the process all over.

You'll shit your drawers as we go into first round of the second phase, and likely give up your chip before your nose even get wet. Again... assuming you're a steely eye'd bad ass.

BUT! If you last the full 24 hours... You get to keep my hundred GRAND!

You ready?

Well... you lemme know.

.

.

.

It's been a while scamp. Ya seem to be sufferin' a 'bout of reticence here. What's the problem?

Your hundred grand is safe my friend cause LL is all talk. He talks quite well but talk is talk.

I have a friend who went through waterboarding while he was a marine. He said is was uncomfortable and it scared the shit out of him but he was no worse for wear when it was over.

Some idiots consider it torture. Me? I consider it a way to get info.

Torture: Thats pulling out peoles fingernails, hooking electrical wires up to their balls, beating them with barbed wire or bamboo rods or enduriing what McCain endured as a POW in NV. Thats torture. Waterboarding ain't even close.

Of course we have a country full of handwringing idiots who think those dirtbag jihadists should be treated with kid gloves. Hell. Gitmo is a vacationland for em. Its the best they have ever eaten or lived in in their entire lives. We Americans are soft and these handwringers show just how soft we are. Idiots one and all.

Thank you. But my Hundred grand was never at risk, and my earning his $10 grand was a 100% certainty.

The exercise would have lasted, at the absolute longest, an hour, including drive-time.

 

[The Rabbi]

I should have known you were in no way fit to have a serious discussion. Perhaps if the topic was toilets you might do better. Maybe.
We are trying to determine what you think "the actual torture" is. So far it seems anything the Bush Administration did was actual torture, while anything the Obama Administration does is okey dokey.

And there's yet another sidestep. Once you have been cornered, you drag good oil' Obama into the mix.

You sir, are truly an idiot.

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

 

[Claudette]

And there's yet another sidestep. Once you have been cornered, you drag good oil' Obama into the mix.

You sir, are truly an idiot.

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

You're supposed to ask nicely and hope they tell you everything.

Where ya been? Thats the ticket for the hand wringers in America.

 

[The Rabbi]

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

You're supposed to ask nicely and hope they tell you everything.

Where ya been? Thats the ticket for the hand wringers in America.

Yes. The Left believes that if we just sit down and talk,like regular guys, over coffee or beer or whatever then they'll come around to seeing it our way. As Hillary said, we need to have empathy for them.
It is a conceited view of reality and of course 180 degrees from the truth.

 

[Camp]

So then we would disagree..............and that is all.....................

Now please continue with the BS that we are raping little girls and other shit which are absolute lies on this thread........don't remember whether it was you or the old school punk who stated that though.

It isn't a disagreement. It's you being wrong. Torture does not work. If you tortured someone who had your kid and was threatening to kill, you'd likely do more harm than good. It's an emotional reaction. It isn't an intelligent one.

And...keep your shit straight.

Again, we disagree............it's that simple..........

Der.....no. You are wrong. It isn't a disagreement when you are wrong. It is you being wrong. Identify it accurately please.

Wow, your argument continues to be: Torture doesnt work because torture doesnt work. Here's a link to some asshole saying that as well.
Opinion is not fact. Repeat that sentence about 1000 times and then come back to us.

Torture is a function of punishment, which may or may not serve a further purpose, such as gaining information.

It is in this very notion that the Left is dead ass wrong; they assume we were debriefing these prisoners, with a vengeance. We were not. We were making their life miserable, as a means to help them help us.

You see kids, they were more inclined to murder us. It seems they were indoctrinated to hate us. As a result they were not inclined to help us. So... we provided them with a couple of options.

- Continue to not help us and be VERY uncomfortable.

- Help us and comfort up.

As you saw with the death of Osama, KSM eventually took "DOOR #2!". As they all have... . As you would, as anyone you've ever met would.

The thing to recognize here is the deceptive nature of this 'Torture myth'. Its truly a subversive lie. Serving not just as a political wedge, but a political wedge that lends aid and comfort to our enemies.

The good news is that it serves as a beacon. Where ever we find the myth being perpetrated, we find one whose purpose is to aid and comfort our enemy, OKA: Our Enemy.

Now, that brings the answer to the most commonly asked question in the US Culture today: "How did our nation become so divided?" The answer to which is: "We allowed our enemy to have a voice, to promote their foreign ideas hostile to the principles that define and sustain our nation."

Simple stuff.

Nice fairy tale, but all you have in that fairy tale is uneducated rambling to defend a failed educing process. The techniques used at the behest of the Bush administration was in fact a dismal failure. They ignored CIA, FBI and military experts in the area of interrogation and parsed the job out to inexperienced amateurs who lost opportunities to gain reliable and actionable intelligence and in the process created recruitment and propaganda assets to our enemies.
It's not as if we don't know how to illicit information from captives. The subject has been studied and those specially trained with doing the job know how to do it. The defenders of torture techniques and techniques that cause physical discomfort confuse and defer to battlefield techniques that might be used by soldiers to obtain immediate results with skilled techniques used by experts to obtain actionable intelligence that can be used on a broader scale. When torture is used by soldiers in the fog of combat and for immediate life and death purposes, the activity is illegal, but it might be, and often is, ignored and overlooked. Applying torture once a captive is introduced to official captive status under control of officers is a whole different situation.
If torture techniques actually worked, there would probably be far less controversy and debate about it's use. The defenders of torture and those who try to redefine torture base their opinions on speculation and misinformation. They do not base their opinions of empirical data and conclusive research, or results. Portraying those who object to torture as wimps and anti American and pro terrorist stooges is just a ploy being used to shield the ignorance of the defenders of torture. It is a way a burying ones head in the sand and choosing to remain stupid on the topic rather than going though the effort of educating ones self of the topic beyond what is preached to them by politicians and pundits with political agenda's. Putting stupid and foolish policies in place is what makes us weak.
Below is a link to a comprehensive study from the National Defense Intelligence College.

fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf

Here is a report about the negative results when torture techniques are used. It comes from the Strategic Studies Institute, US Army.

strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/06summer/dimarco.pdf

 

[Nosmo King]

And there's yet another sidestep. Once you have been cornered, you drag good oil' Obama into the mix.

You sir, are truly an idiot.

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

 

[The Rabbi]

You cannot defend your position and that makes me the idiot. Got it.

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

 

[Nosmo King]

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Possibly. I've been listening to experts in interrogation techniques and they have a lot to say. It seems Sadism (the preferred method of Conservatives in ALL things) is not all that effective in garnering accurate intelligence.

I wonder if you have the patience necessary to understand that. I realize that nuance is not part and parcel of the Conservative dogma. But there is ample evidence showing interrogation techniques using subtler, more nuanced methods of inducement are much more effective than sending in the Sadists.

 

[LoneLaugher]

It isn't a disagreement. It's you being wrong. Torture does not work. If you tortured someone who had your kid and was threatening to kill, you'd likely do more harm than good. It's an emotional reaction. It isn't an intelligent one.

And...keep your shit straight.

Again, we disagree............it's that simple..........

Der.....no. You are wrong. It isn't a disagreement when you are wrong. It is you being wrong. Identify it accurately please.

Wow, your argument continues to be: Torture doesnt work because torture doesnt work. Here's a link to some asshole saying that as well.
Opinion is not fact. Repeat that sentence about 1000 times and then come back to us.

Torture is a function of punishment, which may or may not serve a further purpose, such as gaining information.

It is in this very notion that the Left is dead ass wrong; they assume we were debriefing these prisoners, with a vengeance. We were not. We were making their life miserable, as a means to help them help us.

You see kids, they were more inclined to murder us. It seems they were indoctrinated to hate us. As a result they were not inclined to help us. So... we provided them with a couple of options.

- Continue to not help us and be VERY uncomfortable.

- Help us and comfort up.

As you saw with the death of Osama, KSM eventually took "DOOR #2!". As they all have... . As you would, as anyone you've ever met would.

The thing to recognize here is the deceptive nature of this 'Torture myth'. Its truly a subversive lie. Serving not just as a political wedge, but a political wedge that lends aid and comfort to our enemies.

The good news is that it serves as a beacon. Where ever we find the myth being perpetrated, we find one whose purpose is to aid and comfort our enemy, OKA: Our Enemy.

Now, that brings the answer to the most commonly asked question in the US Culture today: "How did our nation become so divided?" The answer to which is: "We allowed our enemy to have a voice, to promote their foreign ideas hostile to the principles that define and sustain our nation."

Simple stuff.

Nice fairy tale, but all you have in that fairy tale is uneducated rambling to defend a failed educing process. The techniques used at the behest of the Bush administration was in fact a dismal failure. They ignored CIA, FBI and military experts in the area of interrogation and parsed the job out to inexperienced amateurs who lost opportunities to gain reliable and actionable intelligence and in the process created recruitment and propaganda assets to our enemies.
It's not as if we don't know how to illicit information from captives. The subject has been studied and those specially trained with doing the job know how to do it. The defenders of torture techniques and techniques that cause physical discomfort confuse and defer to battlefield techniques that might be used by soldiers to obtain immediate results with skilled techniques used by experts to obtain actionable intelligence that can be used on a broader scale. When torture is used by soldiers in the fog of combat and for immediate life and death purposes, the activity is illegal, but it might be, and often is, ignored and overlooked. Applying torture once a captive is introduced to official captive status under control of officers is a whole different situation.
If torture techniques actually worked, there would probably be far less controversy and debate about it's use. The defenders of torture and those who try to redefine torture base their opinions on speculation and misinformation. They do not base their opinions of empirical data and conclusive research, or results. Portraying those who object to torture as wimps and anti American and pro terrorist stooges is just a ploy being used to shield the ignorance of the defenders of torture. It is a way a burying ones head in the sand and choosing to remain stupid on the topic rather than going though the effort of educating ones self of the topic beyond what is preached to them by politicians and pundits with political agenda's. Putting stupid and foolish policies in place is what makes us weak.
Below is a link to a comprehensive study from the National Defense Intelligence College.

fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf

Here is a report about the negative results when torture techniques are used. It comes from the Strategic Studies Institute, US Army.

strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/06summer/dimarco.pdf

Awesome.

 

[Claudette]

I can defend my position. But you make a moving target. I said interrogation and you read apprehension and control. I said torture is using pain as an interrogation technique, you talked about a cop handcuffing a street perp.

Talking with you is like telling a six year old "After we clean the garage, we'll go to McDonald's!" Then the kid does everything in his limited power to avoid cleaning the garage and insists that we should leave for McDonald's right now!

Remember this, my slow witted friend, attention to the posts means honesty at least. You seem to not be all that honest in your thinking.

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Of course they do.

They are all handwringers and are more worred about what others think of them than getting intelligence to fight those bastards.

God forbid that we waterboard some dirtbag to get intelligence. All three of the "victim" of waterboarding survived and are probably still at that vacationland known as Gitmo unless, of course, if Barry let them go home to fight again.

 

[Nosmo King]

You fail every single time.
I point out the flaws in your defintiions and you move them, or deflect to something else. Or throw insults.
Your definition seems to be: Bush did it, therefore it must be bad.
Go ahead. Tell me what torture is, and define it in such a way that it could not be applied to situations that regularly occur.

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Of course they do.

They are all handwringers and are more worred about what others think of them than getting intelligence to fight those bastards.

God forbid that we waterboard some dirtbag to get intelligence. All three of the "victim" of waterboarding survived and are probably still at that vacationland known as Gitmo unless, of course, if Barry let them go home to fight again.

we did not get the intelligence you think we got. Reading the report rather than reacting in some Sadistic zeal would change the picture for you. Do you have the willingness and the ability to really read the report?

We also know that torture is a crime. The United States signed the treaty. Are you in favor of breaking the law?

We know that Japanese war criminals were charged with torture of American POWs. Are you in favor of committing the same war crimes as our enemies?

We realize that Al Qeada and ISIS are ruthless, cruel and act with impunity. Do you favor abandoning American ideals and ethics and adopting the ethics and morals of savages? .

 

[The Rabbi]

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Of course they do.

They are all handwringers and are more worred about what others think of them than getting intelligence to fight those bastards.

God forbid that we waterboard some dirtbag to get intelligence. All three of the "victim" of waterboarding survived and are probably still at that vacationland known as Gitmo unless, of course, if Barry let them go home to fight again.

we did not get the intelligence you think we got. Reading the report rather than reacting in some Sadistic zeal would change the picture for you. Do you have the willingness and the ability to really read the report?

We also know that torture is a crime. The United States signed the treaty. Are you in favor of breaking the law?

We know that Japanese war criminals were charged with torture of American POWs. Are you in favor of committing the same war crimes as our enemies?

We realize that Al Qeada and ISIS are ruthless, cruel and act with impunity. Do you favor abandoning American ideals and ethics and adopting the ethics and morals of savages? .

Have your ead the report? Who wrote that report? Should be an easy response.
Torture is a crime. What we did is not torture. It is interrogation. The Bush Administration carefully researched the parameters of torture vs interrogation and relied on expert opinion from their Justice Department (something Obama does not do) before setting out policy guidelines. You knew that, right?
Do you favor continued attacks by al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups? How do you propose gathering intelligence to stop them if not by using humint?

 

[Claudette]

Okay Skippy. One more time for the record: torture is using physical pain as a means of INTERROGATION. Not apprehension, not detention. INTERROGATION.

Examples can be found in the Senate report and admitted to by the CIA and their notorious private contractors. These include, but are not limited to; waterboarding, prolonged stress positions, prolonged sleep deprivation and the insertion of probes into various body orifices.

We are not talking about the police applying handcuff, as is usual and accepted practice. We are talking about torture.

The face of the United States of America during this program of torture went from being a face of hope and democracy and human potential to a face of pure Sadism. And Conservatives LOVE it!

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Of course they do.

They are all handwringers and are more worred about what others think of them than getting intelligence to fight those bastards.

God forbid that we waterboard some dirtbag to get intelligence. All three of the "victim" of waterboarding survived and are probably still at that vacationland known as Gitmo unless, of course, if Barry let them go home to fight again.

we did not get the intelligence you think we got. Reading the report rather than reacting in some Sadistic zeal would change the picture for you. Do you have the willingness and the ability to really read the report?

We also know that torture is a crime. The United States signed the treaty. Are you in favor of breaking the law?

We know that Japanese war criminals were charged with torture of American POWs. Are you in favor of committing the same war crimes as our enemies?

We realize that Al Qeada and ISIS are ruthless, cruel and act with impunity. Do you favor abandoning American ideals and ethics and adopting the ethics and morals of savages? .

I'd waterboard everyone of those bastards. Better yet I'd shoot em all and take no prisoners then you handwringers wouldn't have to worry about your so called torture.

 

[Nosmo King]

Your stupid hyperbole aside, so how is sleep deprivation torture? You're not inflicting pain on anyone. Same with stress positions and a lot of what was detailed there. Uncomfortable? Yes/ But thats not inflicting pain.
How do you propose we get information out of hardened terrorists? Tickle them? Subject them to reading your posts? (OK thats cruel and unusual).

Keep your sadism and we'll do just fine.

Let's first understand that the United States signed a treaty banning torture. Let us also understand that the United States prosecuted Japanese war criminals for the torture they committed. One specific use of torture named in the indictment of Japanese war criminals was water boarding! Imagine that! We prosecuted war criminals for water boarding.

As for how to get reliable, actionable intelligence? Let's ignore the Sadists that Cheney hired and then kept the American people in the dark about. Sadists don't get intelligence, they mete out revenge.

Let's instead listen to the experts who have interrogated suspects and have garnered real, actionable intelligence. There are methods that do not involve physical pain. But Conservatives want their pound of flesh more than real intelligence.

Mastertful bit of deflection and dissimulation.
Do you think sitting and asking nicely is going to produce actionable intelligence with committed terrorists?

Of course they do.

They are all handwringers and are more worred about what others think of them than getting intelligence to fight those bastards.

God forbid that we waterboard some dirtbag to get intelligence. All three of the "victim" of waterboarding survived and are probably still at that vacationland known as Gitmo unless, of course, if Barry let them go home to fight again.

we did not get the intelligence you think we got. Reading the report rather than reacting in some Sadistic zeal would change the picture for you. Do you have the willingness and the ability to really read the report?

We also know that torture is a crime. The United States signed the treaty. Are you in favor of breaking the law?

We know that Japanese war criminals were charged with torture of American POWs. Are you in favor of committing the same war crimes as our enemies?

We realize that Al Qeada and ISIS are ruthless, cruel and act with impunity. Do you favor abandoning American ideals and ethics and adopting the ethics and morals of savages? .

Have your ead the report? Who wrote that report? Should be an easy response.
Torture is a crime. What we did is not torture. It is interrogation. The Bush Administration carefully researched the parameters of torture vs interrogation and relied on expert opinion from their Justice Department (something Obama does not do) before setting out policy guidelines. You knew that, right?
Do you favor continued attacks by al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups? How do you propose gathering intelligence to stop them if not by using humint?

What the Bush Administration knew and what they told Congress (in effect what they told the American people) did not match up with all those protocols, which were merely window dressing for the torturous acts.

Torture, as I have said now for the fourth time, is using physical pain as a means of interrogation. We used the same method Japanese war criminals used against American POWs during World War II. We were able to recognize torture in 1945. Why can't you recognize it in 2014?