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Support For the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia

surada

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I could've put this in the political forum however I believe this has several ethical points to which validate this being its location.

The Kirkpatrick Thesis has brought to my attention the several interesting support transitions the United States has been repeating. The US pulled support from the dictator of Cuba and so Fidel Castro took over. The same things have happened in Nicaragua with the Sandinista. The idea is that the US may like they did before, pull support from Saudi Arabia's current dictatorship allowing for those seeking a regime change to take over.

This could have several conflicting factors. One of which being that an Islamic theocratic state will be born potentially ruining ties with the United States and creating a coalition of very strong Islamic states most of which do not support the US. Other possibilities form too, a worse regime taking over which could potentially eliminate the human rights of all citizens with a corrupt and terrible religious police. ( I am aware some of these things exist but they can be worse)

My ethical Inquiries are involving what should we do? Does the United States have a right to get involved in the transition? Should the US pull support? How would we deal with the repercussions of a worse regime? Do we need to fear the next Islamic surge? Does US interest matter here; should we remove that from the decisions for ethical purposes?

Why should we interfere with Saudi. culture and religion? They have always been staunch allies and pro-American.
Well for one, the current regime despite their actions has been pro-American. Over the past several decade's groups hell-bent on changing Saudi Arabia into a state like Iran. While I understand the notion we must let religion be, the religion supports "the last living religion", meaning they will exist long after everyone else is exterminated, they have been brilliantly pushing that agenda with terrorist groups in Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Palestine. The goal like many have assumed isn't to destroy the governments as many think, this can really extend to blowing up other enemies to instigate and fume warfare as we see when the unjust attacks on Israel occur. Terror isn't a religion nor is it culture and while it would be nice to remove ourselves from the Middle Eastern theatre at this point in time it could be detrimental, especially if Iran openly supports the destruction of several nations until they join under them, will potentially take over.

Yemen is a horrible mess and its always been so poor....and lawless outside Sa'na. In 1998 AQ moved in from Afghanistan followed by Boko Haram, Al Shaabaz, Somali Pirates...

The Saudis moved all their border villages back 20 kilometers and built a fence. They have been plagued by suicide bombers. KSA has invested in Yemen for 40 years.. hospitals and clinics, trade schools and colleges, clean water, medicine, food and gasoline. The Al Houthis overthrew the government.. Even the Monarchists are still fighting the Communists. The Houthis are trying to control the Bab al Mandab and all the Red Sea ports from the Indian Ocean to Suez.

I'm not optimistic.

KSA has taken in a million Yemeni refugees .. and that's not even a dent in the problem.
The whole arena is a mess. This does not mean of course we can look the other way and hope for the best. These groups have been bombing for a long time and due to great unrest a regime change might happen. We are now looking at the people doing the bombing (through funding) trying to take power.

The whole area is NOT a mess.
Examples

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the Emirates aren't a mess. They are quite nice.. peaceful and prosperous. Arabs value a civil society.
Any other ones you'd like to call peaceful and prosperous?
surada hangs out with Muslims.

Nope.. I hang out with Jews.
 

Indeependent

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I could've put this in the political forum however I believe this has several ethical points to which validate this being its location.

The Kirkpatrick Thesis has brought to my attention the several interesting support transitions the United States has been repeating. The US pulled support from the dictator of Cuba and so Fidel Castro took over. The same things have happened in Nicaragua with the Sandinista. The idea is that the US may like they did before, pull support from Saudi Arabia's current dictatorship allowing for those seeking a regime change to take over.

This could have several conflicting factors. One of which being that an Islamic theocratic state will be born potentially ruining ties with the United States and creating a coalition of very strong Islamic states most of which do not support the US. Other possibilities form too, a worse regime taking over which could potentially eliminate the human rights of all citizens with a corrupt and terrible religious police. ( I am aware some of these things exist but they can be worse)

My ethical Inquiries are involving what should we do? Does the United States have a right to get involved in the transition? Should the US pull support? How would we deal with the repercussions of a worse regime? Do we need to fear the next Islamic surge? Does US interest matter here; should we remove that from the decisions for ethical purposes?

Why should we interfere with Saudi. culture and religion? They have always been staunch allies and pro-American.
Well for one, the current regime despite their actions has been pro-American. Over the past several decade's groups hell-bent on changing Saudi Arabia into a state like Iran. While I understand the notion we must let religion be, the religion supports "the last living religion", meaning they will exist long after everyone else is exterminated, they have been brilliantly pushing that agenda with terrorist groups in Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Palestine. The goal like many have assumed isn't to destroy the governments as many think, this can really extend to blowing up other enemies to instigate and fume warfare as we see when the unjust attacks on Israel occur. Terror isn't a religion nor is it culture and while it would be nice to remove ourselves from the Middle Eastern theatre at this point in time it could be detrimental, especially if Iran openly supports the destruction of several nations until they join under them, will potentially take over.

Yemen is a horrible mess and its always been so poor....and lawless outside Sa'na. In 1998 AQ moved in from Afghanistan followed by Boko Haram, Al Shaabaz, Somali Pirates...

The Saudis moved all their border villages back 20 kilometers and built a fence. They have been plagued by suicide bombers. KSA has invested in Yemen for 40 years.. hospitals and clinics, trade schools and colleges, clean water, medicine, food and gasoline. The Al Houthis overthrew the government.. Even the Monarchists are still fighting the Communists. The Houthis are trying to control the Bab al Mandab and all the Red Sea ports from the Indian Ocean to Suez.

I'm not optimistic.

KSA has taken in a million Yemeni refugees .. and that's not even a dent in the problem.
The whole arena is a mess. This does not mean of course we can look the other way and hope for the best. These groups have been bombing for a long time and due to great unrest a regime change might happen. We are now looking at the people doing the bombing (through funding) trying to take power.

The whole area is NOT a mess.
Examples

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the Emirates aren't a mess. They are quite nice.. peaceful and prosperous. Arabs value a civil society.
Any other ones you'd like to call peaceful and prosperous?
surada hangs out with Muslims.

Nope.. I hang out with Jews.
Self-hating Jews.
I'm related to some of them.
 

surada

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
 

Indeependent

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
You don't call your enemy an asshole in public if you want them to stop lobbing missiles at their neighbors.
 
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Pythagoras

Pythagoras

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I could've put this in the political forum however I believe this has several ethical points to which validate this being its location.

The Kirkpatrick Thesis has brought to my attention the several interesting support transitions the United States has been repeating. The US pulled support from the dictator of Cuba and so Fidel Castro took over. The same things have happened in Nicaragua with the Sandinista. The idea is that the US may like they did before, pull support from Saudi Arabia's current dictatorship allowing for those seeking a regime change to take over.

This could have several conflicting factors. One of which being that an Islamic theocratic state will be born potentially ruining ties with the United States and creating a coalition of very strong Islamic states most of which do not support the US. Other possibilities form too, a worse regime taking over which could potentially eliminate the human rights of all citizens with a corrupt and terrible religious police. ( I am aware some of these things exist but they can be worse)

My ethical Inquiries are involving what should we do? Does the United States have a right to get involved in the transition? Should the US pull support? How would we deal with the repercussions of a worse regime? Do we need to fear the next Islamic surge? Does US interest matter here; should we remove that from the decisions for ethical purposes?

Why should we interfere with Saudi. culture and religion? They have always been staunch allies and pro-American.
Well for one, the current regime despite their actions has been pro-American. Over the past several decade's groups hell-bent on changing Saudi Arabia into a state like Iran. While I understand the notion we must let religion be, the religion supports "the last living religion", meaning they will exist long after everyone else is exterminated, they have been brilliantly pushing that agenda with terrorist groups in Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Palestine. The goal like many have assumed isn't to destroy the governments as many think, this can really extend to blowing up other enemies to instigate and fume warfare as we see when the unjust attacks on Israel occur. Terror isn't a religion nor is it culture and while it would be nice to remove ourselves from the Middle Eastern theatre at this point in time it could be detrimental, especially if Iran openly supports the destruction of several nations until they join under them, will potentially take over.

Yemen is a horrible mess and its always been so poor....and lawless outside Sa'na. In 1998 AQ moved in from Afghanistan followed by Boko Haram, Al Shaabaz, Somali Pirates...

The Saudis moved all their border villages back 20 kilometers and built a fence. They have been plagued by suicide bombers. KSA has invested in Yemen for 40 years.. hospitals and clinics, trade schools and colleges, clean water, medicine, food and gasoline. The Al Houthis overthrew the government.. Even the Monarchists are still fighting the Communists. The Houthis are trying to control the Bab al Mandab and all the Red Sea ports from the Indian Ocean to Suez.

I'm not optimistic.

KSA has taken in a million Yemeni refugees .. and that's not even a dent in the problem.
The whole arena is a mess. This does not mean of course we can look the other way and hope for the best. These groups have been bombing for a long time and due to great unrest a regime change might happen. We are now looking at the people doing the bombing (through funding) trying to take power.

The whole area is NOT a mess.
Examples

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the Emirates aren't a mess. They are quite nice.. peaceful and prosperous. Arabs value a civil society.
Any other ones you'd like to call peaceful and prosperous?
surada hangs out with Muslims.
I mean that's fine but as long as we accept that the governments should stop allowing for the destruction of other places i.e. stop blowing up Israel and we can live in harmony
 
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Pythagoras

Pythagoras

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
They may not be stupid but they sure haven't been able to keep order even with the US letting them commit murder and oppress their peoples. Which, granted, occurs with a lot of dictators the US sucks off.
 

surada

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
They may not be stupid but they sure haven't been able to keep order even with the US letting them commit murder and oppress their peoples. Which, granted, occurs with a lot of dictators the US sucks off.

The Saudi people have less government interference in their lives than we do. The Saudis aren't oppressed.. They have come into modernity at their own pace.. Whether is was accepting airplanes or the radio or television, education for girls. The king floats an idea then he sits back and waits for the people to catch up to the idea. I've watched it happen a hundred times.
 

surada

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
You don't call your enemy an asshole in public if you want them to stop lobbing missiles at their neighbors.

What country are you talking about?
 

Indeependent

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I never understood why the US cowers to that evil, corrupt regime.
After 9-11, we ignored the Saudis role in the attacks and went out of our way to cower before them.
After the Khasgoggi atrocity, Trump played dumb and said he was not sure if the Royal Family was involved. Even if they were, Trump was willing to ignore it as long as they bought our expensive weapons
Now Biden is doing the same. While supposedly distancing himself from the Saudis, he refuses to condemn the Royal Family.
I am still upset about Trump kissing Saudi ass.

Trump gushes at everyone.. The Saudis aren't stupid. They knew what he was even before he was inauguration. Look how he gushed over Putin and Kim Jong Un.
You don't call your enemy an asshole in public if you want them to stop lobbing missiles at their neighbors.

What country are you talking about?
Russia and North Korea.
Both decided to behave.
In terms of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran...there's only so much you can do with Arabs without starving them or blowing them up.
Yes, I know you love Arabs; I love some of them also.
I don't believe most Muslims wake up in the morning wanting anymore out of life than anyone else.
 
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Pythagoras

Pythagoras

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.
 

surada

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
 
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Pythagoras

Pythagoras

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
I would be very inclined to believe that if there weren't reports showing otherwise, I know there is great friction between the religious police and peoples however the police are ingrained into policy and if the prince does get his way they will be there for a long time. I have heard the prince was more open by several people however judging by the actions he cares more about this hold than to develop change. There have also been reports of financial mishaps between high-ranking officers. While you do list regions which you claim to be much better, anyone can live in a penthouse make a decent amount of money, and matter to a high-ranking official and claim that the world they are in is perfect.
 

surada

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
I would be very inclined to believe that if there weren't reports showing otherwise, I know there is great friction between the religious police and peoples however the police are ingrained into policy and if the prince does get his way they will be there for a long time. I have heard the prince was more open by several people however judging by the actions he cares more about this hold than to develop change. There have also been reports of financial mishaps between high-ranking officers. While you do list regions which you claim to be much better, anyone can live in a penthouse make a decent amount of money, and matter to a high-ranking official and claim that the world they are in is perfect.

There weren't any until 1979, with its Iranian Revolution and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca. The Prince doesn't like the Muttaween. Neither did his father or his uncles.

I never lived in any highrise.. Oil camps are not that fancy and mostly ex-pats go out of camp every day. I have been all over Arabia. Don't believe everything you read., Most of the pundits have never been there and the ones who have were there less than 4 days.
 
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Pythagoras

Pythagoras

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
I would be very inclined to believe that if there weren't reports showing otherwise, I know there is great friction between the religious police and peoples however the police are ingrained into policy and if the prince does get his way they will be there for a long time. I have heard the prince was more open by several people however judging by the actions he cares more about this hold than to develop change. There have also been reports of financial mishaps between high-ranking officers. While you do list regions which you claim to be much better, anyone can live in a penthouse make a decent amount of money, and matter to a high-ranking official and claim that the world they are in is perfect.

There weren't any until 1979, with its Iranian Revolution and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca. The Prince doesn't like the Muttaween. Neither did his father or his uncles.

I never lived in any highrise.. Oil camps are not that fancy and mostly ex-pats go out of camp every day. I have been all over Arabia. Don't believe everything you read., Most of the pundits have never been there and the ones who have were there less than 4 days.
Oh, I wasn't referring to where you live I was speaking on the notion that there are peaceful regions. A man in Rwanda could say there are no problems with water while living in the best city there is. However, I understand that there are places where things may not be too bad but that doesn't speak to the region or the nation. On the terms of the Monarch liking the police, their personal opinion doesn't matter, they use the religious police as a way of rule. It is by their binding that the power is balanced as it is. I do not know the prince's view internally but I know he needs the Wahhabi. The recent reports on him putting them in place were very nice to see but that doesn't excuse his latest judgments. especially in using them for his business.
 
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Pythagoras

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Pythagoras,

The push right now is for Biden to further punish Saudi Arabia.
Here:

and here: Ex-CIA director urges Biden to hold MBS ‘accountable’ in Khashoggi’s death

What do you think should happen and why?
We started this whole thing a looong time ago and we have been paying for it ever since. It's time to stop playing proxy and get in and stop terrorism funding governments. Monarchs and religious governments need to step back and let the people decide. Will it work? not according to the democratic sequence, however, if we don't we look at another 40 years and potentially at a more lethal rate.
 

Disir

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Pythagoras,

The push right now is for Biden to further punish Saudi Arabia.
Here:

and here: Ex-CIA director urges Biden to hold MBS ‘accountable’ in Khashoggi’s death

What do you think should happen and why?
We started this whole thing a looong time ago and we have been paying for it ever since. It's time to stop playing proxy and get in and stop terrorism funding governments. Monarchs and religious governments need to step back and let the people decide. Will it work? not according to the democratic sequence, however, if we don't we look at another 40 years and potentially at a more lethal rate.
Pythagoras,

The push right now is for Biden to further punish Saudi Arabia.
Here:

and here: Ex-CIA director urges Biden to hold MBS ‘accountable’ in Khashoggi’s death

What do you think should happen and why?
We started this whole thing a looong time ago and we have been paying for it ever since. It's time to stop playing proxy and get in and stop terrorism funding governments. Monarchs and religious governments need to step back and let the people decide. Will it work? not according to the democratic sequence, however, if we don't we look at another 40 years and potentially at a more lethal rate.
They won't step back. That means that we are looking at regime change.
 

Desperado

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should we remove that from the decisions for ethical purposes?

Can you imagine if some country or asshole told the US we don't like your culture, traditions, religion or government and we're going to force you to change.?

Can you imagine???
Yes I can imagine, that is exactly what the Democrats are doing to America now.
 

surada

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
I would be very inclined to believe that if there weren't reports showing otherwise, I know there is great friction between the religious police and peoples however the police are ingrained into policy and if the prince does get his way they will be there for a long time. I have heard the prince was more open by several people however judging by the actions he cares more about this hold than to develop change. There have also been reports of financial mishaps between high-ranking officers. While you do list regions which you claim to be much better, anyone can live in a penthouse make a decent amount of money, and matter to a high-ranking official and claim that the world they are in is perfect.

There weren't any until 1979, with its Iranian Revolution and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca. The Prince doesn't like the Muttaween. Neither did his father or his uncles.

I never lived in any highrise.. Oil camps are not that fancy and mostly ex-pats go out of camp every day. I have been all over Arabia. Don't believe everything you read., Most of the pundits have never been there and the ones who have were there less than 4 days.
Oh, I wasn't referring to where you live I was speaking on the notion that there are peaceful regions. A man in Rwanda could say there are no problems with water while living in the best city there is. However, I understand that there are places where things may not be too bad but that doesn't speak to the region or the nation. On the terms of the Monarch liking the police, their personal opinion doesn't matter, they use the religious police as a way of rule. It is by their binding that the power is balanced as it is. I do not know the prince's view internally but I know he needs the Wahhabi. The recent reports on him putting them in place were very nice to see but that doesn't excuse his latest judgments. especially in using them for his business.

Don't believe everything you read about the Wahhabi either. Most of the experts never heard the word until after 9-11.

Read the Wahhabi Myth.
 

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Pythagoras

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It's great you've seen some stuff but the issues branch far beyond ideas. You're dealing with religious police that is too harsh on society and utilizes their positions to take advantage of the citizenry. You see several reports on deaths for suspected "witchcraft" and other various crimes that were usually killed. The religion and royal family are integrated and the prince is not oblivious to the actions of his police-state. I disagree that they have less especially when the media can be killed without involvement, religious police can break the law and unjustly murder in his own nation. I don't believe we can stop supporting him without a worse regime taking over at this time but he is far from leading a just society. Look at the laws as well, the lack of inquiry into their own affairs leaves room for corruption and no one question. Or is that because they would all of a sudden find themselves in a worse position. I would love to visit Saudi Arabia but I am very aware of the issues with the government going on rn.

The Mutaween are not allowed in Jubail or Yanbu ..and they are rare in Jeddah an the Eastern province. They have no police powers and are considered pests. Periodically they are rounded up and told to cool it. In recent years they have unceremoniously been thrown out of ballparks, stadiums, book fairs, concerts and other public events.

Mostly what they do is roam around in the early evening saying go to mosque or get a haircut.
I would be very inclined to believe that if there weren't reports showing otherwise, I know there is great friction between the religious police and peoples however the police are ingrained into policy and if the prince does get his way they will be there for a long time. I have heard the prince was more open by several people however judging by the actions he cares more about this hold than to develop change. There have also been reports of financial mishaps between high-ranking officers. While you do list regions which you claim to be much better, anyone can live in a penthouse make a decent amount of money, and matter to a high-ranking official and claim that the world they are in is perfect.

There weren't any until 1979, with its Iranian Revolution and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca. The Prince doesn't like the Muttaween. Neither did his father or his uncles.

I never lived in any highrise.. Oil camps are not that fancy and mostly ex-pats go out of camp every day. I have been all over Arabia. Don't believe everything you read., Most of the pundits have never been there and the ones who have were there less than 4 days.
Oh, I wasn't referring to where you live I was speaking on the notion that there are peaceful regions. A man in Rwanda could say there are no problems with water while living in the best city there is. However, I understand that there are places where things may not be too bad but that doesn't speak to the region or the nation. On the terms of the Monarch liking the police, their personal opinion doesn't matter, they use the religious police as a way of rule. It is by their binding that the power is balanced as it is. I do not know the prince's view internally but I know he needs the Wahhabi. The recent reports on him putting them in place were very nice to see but that doesn't excuse his latest judgments. especially in using them for his business.

Don't believe everything you read about the Wahhabi either. Most of the experts never heard the word until after 9-11.

Read the Wahhabi Myth.
I think that's factually false considering the study of the Middle Eastern region has been going on for a long time. Don't believe me? look at how we handled the shah in '54. 1954 is a smidge older than 9-11 I know but some would see that small distance as a long time to study. Also I think under President carter the Wahhabi was well known too but I could be mixing my facts up since the west obviously didn't know before 9-11
 

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