student escorted out of class for not saying the pledge

[Lonestar_logic]

I have never had an issue with children reciting the pledge of allegience - particularly as part of teaching civics (is that even taught any more?)....but I do have an issue with the addition of "God" - something added long after the pledge was written, in fact - it was added under Eisenhower through pressure from the religious right as a statement against "godless communism". Allegience to a diety - which it essentially is - belongs in the realm of the churches, not public school systems. I'm picky about my dieties.

Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….."

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

They are government schools.
Why would you expect anything other then government indoctrination?

Just anther reason to do away with the DOE and have local schools .

 

[FireGod]

The issue isn't the child, it's the scumbag parents.

If they have an issue with living in this country the door is that way -------------------------------------->

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

 

[SFC Ollie]

The issue isn't the child, it's the scumbag parents.

If they have an issue with living in this country the door is that way -------------------------------------->

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The issue isn't the child, it's the scumbag parents.

If they have an issue with living in this country the door is that way -------------------------------------->

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

What about the rest of the tripe the government schools teach?

 

[Coyote]

I have never had an issue with children reciting the pledge of allegience - particularly as part of teaching civics (is that even taught any more?)....but I do have an issue with the addition of "God" - something added long after the pledge was written, in fact - it was added under Eisenhower through pressure from the religious right as a statement against "godless communism". Allegience to a diety - which it essentially is - belongs in the realm of the churches, not public school systems. I'm picky about my dieties.

Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency.

Whether you like it or not, our founding fathers held a wide variety of religious beliefs from devout to athiest. Many were the intellectual products of the Enlightenment: an age where the role of religion, it's authority over the secular realm and the government were being critically examined. Humanistic philosophies were coming into being. Many considered themselves "deists". It's ludicrous and ignorant to assume they had anything like a monolithic regard for God or religion. They did not. In fact, some of their governing ideals were born of a critical look at the historical record of war and strife that Europe has endured as a result of religious fighting and the role of religion in secular governance.

Yoou are right - I don't have any issue with what is on coinage. Coins are not sacred objects (well...maybe they are for some....) and neither are they a pledge nor do they call for an oath of allegience. Oaths are powerful - or, they were once. They mean something...or at least they ought to. Because of that, I look at the words critically. I also have a great deal of respect for Francis Bellamy. The sentiments leading to the original pledge were a legacy of the Civil War - the bloodiest and most horrific war fought on our soil.

The original pledge: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, is powerful and simple..one nation indivisible....liberty and justice for all..... It represents some pretty profound concepts in it's simple wording, concepts that every American can stand for. It also reminds us that we as a nation were almost torn apart. On nation indivisible. We were reminded of that once again when we were able to unite above partisan strife after 9/11....for a little while.

When you add "under God" you add dischord, a challange from a vocal minority that, by gum, you better believe in what we believe in or, as Mike so wishes it - leave this country. When I say vocal minority I mean just that. Americans are a religious country compared to many other western nations - but we are becoming increasingly private about our beliefs and most of us prefer a seperation of sacred and secular - we just don't have the shrillness of our opponents. Those of us who do not wish "under God" to be added, do not do so for reasons of belief necessarily, but because it does not belong there. It forces a person to make a public acknowledgement that God is tied to patriotism and if you do not believe in that particular version of God, you can not possibly be patriotic. I disagree.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….."

By their Creator...not by a particular god or indeed God. Wording is chosen for a reason.

 

[FireGod]

The issue isn't the child, it's the scumbag parents.

If they have an issue with living in this country the door is that way -------------------------------------->

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

Unfortunatly I can see the possible harm in it.

We will have to agree to disagree then as I am sure that neither one of us will be moved from our perspectives on it.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Really?

Sorry I have to disagree with your jump from child not saying the pledge to parents hating the country.

As we do not have the parents reasons for "allowing" the behavior I would tread lightly on the assumptions.

CMike there was a society that thought the way that you did though (the indoctrination of children from birth for their fatherland).

I don't believe that the USA requiring children to learn and/or say the pledge can be compared to Nazi Germany.

What about the rest of the tripe the government schools teach?

You mean like all the lies in our childrens text books and the lies we were taught growing up? There are any lies still taught in our schools. To which are you referring?

 

[rikules]

I seldom use the word hate. I can't stand them because they always seem to work against freedom of religion, and they work against the protection of the flag.

1) No, they work for freedom FROM religion.
2) Depends on what people see in the flag.

Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution.

Maybe this should be a separate thread; What I see in the flag is a symbol of the freedoms that Americans have fought, bled, and died for for over 200 years. Of course i do not expect others to agree with that.

"Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution."


you really do hate freedom, don't you....

I mean....you HATE the freedom to NOT be forced to recite indoctrinational mantras

and you HATE the freedom to NOT be free from religion


well
sorry to tell you this
and it will, i'm sure, cause you to flail your arms and shriek in anger

but freedom OF religion DOES INCLUDE freedom FROM religion

you have the freedom to believe any religious mumbo jumbo you want to

and I have the freedom to consider it all nonsense

btw..
(you won't understand this)

but a pledge of allegiance to America should NOT include ANY religious connections or references.

the pledge should be a pledge to the COUNTRY (as the original pledge was written)
and NOT a pledge to any god

religious references in the pledge are unconstitutional

and just plain wrong

 

[rikules]

I have never had an issue with children reciting the pledge of allegience - particularly as part of teaching civics (is that even taught any more?)....but I do have an issue with the addition of "God" - something added long after the pledge was written, in fact - it was added under Eisenhower through pressure from the religious right as a statement against "godless communism". Allegience to a diety - which it essentially is - belongs in the realm of the churches, not public school systems. I'm picky about my dieties.

Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….."

"Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency."


our original currency (printed by our forefathers) did NOT have "one nation under god" printed on it.

that wasn't added until AFTER the civil war (thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)


Our original motto was "e pluribus unum",

it was changed AFTER the civil (thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)

Our original pledge did NOT include "under god"

that was added in the 1950's during the right wing mcarthy red scare
(thanks to the shrill shrieks of whinny conservative christians who just REFUSED to leave America alone and must have HATED our original forefathers)

so
if you really think that we should just restore things to the way our forefathers set them then you should SUPPORT the REMOVAL of all those god references.

 

[SFC Ollie]

1) No, they work for freedom FROM religion.
2) Depends on what people see in the flag.

Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution.

Maybe this should be a separate thread; What I see in the flag is a symbol of the freedoms that Americans have fought, bled, and died for for over 200 years. Of course i do not expect others to agree with that.

"Freedom from religion is not one of our rightss in the constitution."


you really do hate freedom, don't you....

I mean....you HATE the freedom to NOT be forced to recite indoctrinational mantras

and you HATE the freedom to NOT be free from religion


well
sorry to tell you this
and it will, i'm sure, cause you to flail your arms and shriek in anger

but freedom OF religion DOES INCLUDE freedom FROM religion

you have the freedom to believe any religious mumbo jumbo you want to

and I have the freedom to consider it all nonsense

btw..
(you won't understand this)

but a pledge of allegiance to America should NOT include ANY religious connections or references.

the pledge should be a pledge to the COUNTRY (as the original pledge was written)
and NOT a pledge to any god

religious references in the pledge are unconstitutional

and just plain wrong

So then hire a lawyer and sue the government. Its a damned shame that so many idiots get upset over something so simple as 2 little words. If they mean nothing to you then why be upset. Everytime i see the word God in print I take it to mean God as I see it. Not the way you or anyone else does. Try it sometime. It's also called respect for others. And don't even think about telling me I hate freedom ever again, I'll allow you to get by with that this time.

 

[xsited1]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Was the student a negro?

You''re really preoccupied with race!!

I bet if the kid had said the pledge of allegiance, it would've gone something like this:

Ah done pledges allegiance
to da Flag
o' da United States
o' America
an' ta da Republic
fo' which it stands,
one Nation, Beneaf God,
indimuhvisible,
wiff liberty an'
justice fo' all.

 

[bodecea]

To start. It is wrong for the teacher to remove a student for not reciting the Pledge. A much better way to handle that situation is to spend 15 minutes at the beginning of every class that week teaching the students what the pledge means and what part of our government guarantees them the right to remain silent during the pledge.

Now, you say people can decide fro themselves where their loyalties lie and I would normally agree with that. Except that you are talking about government run schools and the organs that teach our children teach them that America is not a good country. That America has no value. That we should not be proud of America or what America stands for.

So tell Me. How do those of us who actually love this country combat that if you think we shouldn't force our kids to do things like recite the pledge or sing the national anthem at events or fly a flag in the classroom?

are you familiar with the concept of freedom of speech? do you think you can force someone to love something or someone?

imo, if you love this country and what it stands for, the idea of the govt, in this case the schools, forcing someone to speak or act in a way they do not wish to is anathema.

my kids never came home from school telling me how much they hate america, so i reject the notion that schools inculcate our kids to hate our country.

Perhaps you missed the first part of My post. And I'll clarify that last sentence since I failed to actually say what I mean.

I think that they should be forced to remain in a class that has students reciting the Pledge and that they should be removed from the class if they disrupt that recital.

Better for you?

As for your kids not coming home hating America. It doesn't work that way and you know it. It is a subtle indoctrination that leads to people believing much like the people on this forum believe.

I can start a thread on one single great thing America has done and I'll bet you that I will get a majority of replies from the left and each one of them will be a spouting of all that America has done wrong with no acknowledgment of the original praise.

It happens without fail and it happens because people are infected with the belief that one bad act by this country cancels out the thousands of good acts that we do.

Go ahead and start one. Let's see what happens.

That is what needs to be fought.

And one last thing.

I grew up in an era where reciting the Pledge was mandatory. Many of those I grew up with (who survived growing up) tend to be liberal and guess what. It has not harmed them one little bit.

Then you went to school before 1943, because after that it was NOT manditory...unless your school lied to you and went against your civil rights.

In fact, those who mocked the pledge grew up to be some of the most self-centered liberals I have ever known. Perhaps that is where their ideology comes from. I don't have to be taught any loyalty to anything but i don't want to appear selfish so I'll take other peoples money to help those who are unfortunate. I certainly won't be using my hard earned dollars.

Maybe they knew the law. And weren't AFRAID to actually exercise their rights. I would not call that self-centered....but maybe you can explain what those people you knew as kids DID as adults that make you call them "self-centered".


(Seems to me that loyalty to the ideals of our country and our rights would be a greater loyalty than to a rote memorized speech or to a Made-in-China piece of cloth)

 

[bodecea]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Allegiance to one's country should not be forced, but it should be expected. Anyone not pledging allegiance should be bitchslapped and sent to Git'mo. IMO

So, you advocate having the government punish people severely for not giving a forced oath to the concept of freedom.



Huh?

 

[Contumacious]

Call me simple, but it's tradition in my book .....

Tradition is freedom of speech. Having the police escort someone from the classroom for not saying something is just not right.

Tradition is also Freedom of Religion. No American should be punished for refusing to vow that their country is under a god.

Francis Bellamy said that one purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance was to help accomplish his lifelong goal of making his cousin’s socialist fantasy a reality in America. He further stated that the "true reason for allegiance to the Flag" was to indoctrinate American school children in the false history of the American founding that was espoused first by Daniel Webster and, later, by Abraham Lincoln.

.

 

[bodecea]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

They tried to suspend me for school for refusing some years back. I told them that my loyalties ae to me principles, not to any man, piece of cloth (which was made in China, btw- I'd checked), geographical area, or government.

I am not suprised

Neither am I. proletarian seems to actually believe and practice the rights our country is supposed to protect and be all about.


You seem to want some kind of forced allegiance similarly to what the Soviets and the Nazis wanted from their subjects.

 

[uscitizen]

The ACLU got it ruled several years back that we could not force children to say or even learn the Pledge of Allegiance.

Just another reason I can't stand the ACLU.



YouTube - Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance

Yeah I lost a lot of respect for them when they defended druggie Rush.

 

[bodecea]

I have never had an issue with children reciting the pledge of allegience - particularly as part of teaching civics (is that even taught any more?)....but I do have an issue with the addition of "God" - something added long after the pledge was written, in fact - it was added under Eisenhower through pressure from the religious right as a statement against "godless communism". Allegience to a diety - which it essentially is - belongs in the realm of the churches, not public school systems. I'm picky about my dieties.

Whether you like it or not our founding fathers held God In high regard. I bet you don't have any problems with US currency.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….."

Where is the word "God"?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

always loved the people who force allegiance to liberty....

washingtonpost.com

Allegiance to one's country should not be forced, but it should be expected. Anyone not pledging allegiance should be bitchslapped and sent to Git'mo. IMO

Allegiance to a flag or country should not be 'expected'. Should those born in the CCCP, NAZI Germany, or Rwanda be 'expected' to to be all gung ho about their homeland?

Loyalties and allegiances should be to principles and should be to a nation only insomuch as that nation stands for those principles.

I'm sure the Crown would have appreciated your sentiments, Tory.

 

[uscitizen]

Children cannot be held to any pledges or obligations they make before they become an adult.