Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[Roudy]

I don't believe most Jews are Zionists...at least not supportive of the real goal of zionism.

Okay... I'll bite...

What do you believe the "real goal of Zionism" is?

I believe Zionism is just a tool of transnational corporations and the war machine to control the Jews.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

 

[Roudy]

use the ignore button.

No.

But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Roudy]

Wow, I am new here and didn't know that some of the posters from Stormfront visit here.

Wow, you pickup things very quickly! Welcome to this board.

Did you notice all the anti-semites posing as "anti-Zionists"?

 

[Roudy]

Pay attention and don't play dumb. Disagreeing with Israeli policies isn't anti Zionism, just as disagreeing with American policies isn't anti Americanism. Anti Zionism by definition means you disagree with the right of Israel to exist. And vast majority of those that think like that, are anti Semites, no surprise.

Damn, you took the words right out of mouth !

if i were an anti-semite, i would love for israel to exist.

"If"? Ha ha ha! I think that's already been established.

Israel exists and will exist regardless.

 

[Roudy]

It is not disputed that Mr Luther King Jr. said that "anti Zionism is anti Semitism" except by anti Semites like yourself. Malcolm X? Pfffft.

Quotes by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on Israel:

“Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

“I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

“I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

 

[Coyote]

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

 

[Lipush]

I've often read statements such as:

"I have nothing against Jews - I'm only against Zionists."

or

"A lot of Jews are not Zionists."

Let's break this down, shall we?

The term Zionist, at its most basic level, simply means a person who believes in the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel.

Based upon that definition, the following statements are true:

1. Not all Zionists are Jews. There are many Christians, and even some Muslims, who are Zionists.

2. Not all Jews are Zionists, but most are. There are some Jews who don't believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel. Generally, they fall into one of two categories. One generally consists of ultra-left wing commentators who have essentially abandoned their Jewish heritage (your Richard Falk/Noam Chomski types). The other is a small segment ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that a Jewish State can only be established after the return of the Messiah. These categories represent a VERY SMALL percentage of Jews. So, contrary to assertions of many - MOST JEWS ARE ZIONISTS.

In recent years, there has been a tactic of trying to characterize Jews who criticize Israel's policies or actions as "non-Zionists." This is false. Many Jews are critical of Israel but nonetheless believe that it should exist as a Jewish State.

So, those who are trying to "divide and conquer" by separting Jews (good) from Zionists (bad), are kidding themselves.

If you call yourself an "anti-Zionist," you are essentially saying that you are against the VAST MAJORITY of Jews.

I don't believe most Jews are Zionists...at least not supportive of the real goal of zionism.

That means you're totally ignorant of history, religion, and culture.

I agree.

 

[Lipush]

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

'Settlers' have no "movement"

People talk about settlements as they do on people who have clear ideology of taking over Palestinian lands.

But about half of the settlers sit in the settlements simply because the housing is cheaper in those areas.

Many of them couldn't care less about politics.

Yet they are being waved at with things they're not to be blamed for.

 

[Coyote]

It is not disputed that Mr Luther King Jr. said that "anti Zionism is anti Semitism" except by anti Semites like yourself. Malcolm X? Pfffft.

Quotes by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on Israel:

“Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

“I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

“I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

Dr. King was right, and a great man: “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

Bigotry is an affront to all and it doesn't matter whether it's towards blacks, Jews, Muslims or Palestinians or any other group.

Right on Dr. King

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

'Settlers' have no "movement"

People talk about settlements as they do on people who have clear ideology of taking over Palestinian lands.

But about half of the settlers sit in the settlements simply because the housing is cheaper in those areas.

Many of them couldn't care less about politics.

I don't agree. From what I've read they feel entitled to those lands and they seem to represent a fundamentalist - frontier sort of mentality. That's the attitude that comes across as well as a deliberate attempt to create more and more new settlements to "stake their claims".

Yet they are being waved at with things they're not to be blamed for.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Actually - I'm not even sure what Zionism is anymore. Does it mean the same thing now as it did at the turn of the century? Or has it simply become a slur?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

People often use the mask of ant-Zionism to hide their ant-Semitism. For instance, Sherri's frequent references to Jesus clearly shows that she holds a grudge against Jews for supposedly "killing her god". Seal frequently brings up the one case of Masada to show that Jews are supposedly cowards, while ignoring the Hasmonean uprising, the uprisings against Rome, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc. Patrick has a knack of finding very obscure statements from some fringe rabbis, which are anti-Gentile. George seems to resent Jews for his own economic condition, frequently mentioning Rothchilde. My dad came to these shores penniless and without family after the Holocaust, and built his wealth with his own two hands. Everyone has their own agendas and reasons, but it's clear that we're dealing with a bunch of anti-Semites who have latched onto Zionism to further their causes.

 

[patrickcaturday]

I have explained this before but since you are new to this board ( or at least say you are ) I will attempt to do so again briefly. Apples are not oranges and oranges are not apples you cannot add apples to oranges and get apples, you can not add oranges to apples and get oranges. Zionism is an ideology, Jews are an ethnicity as such they are not comparable, this is simple logic, and should be easy for anyone to understand. You can not equate the two, so to say that anti-Zionism is anti-Semetism defies logic.

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

People often use the mask of ant-Zionism to hide their ant-Semitism. For instance, Sherri's frequent references to Jesus clarly shows that she holds a grudge against Jews for supposedly "killing her god". Seal frequently brings up the one case of Masada to show that Jews are supposedly cowards, while ignoring the Hasmonean uprising, the uprisings against Rome, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc. Patrick has a knack of finding very obscure statements from some fringe rabbis, which are anti-Gentile. George seems to resent Jews for his own economic condition, frequently mentioning Rothchilde. My dad came to these shores penniless and without family after the Holocaust, and built his wealth with his own two hands. Everyone has their own agendas and reasons, but it's clear that we're dealing with a bunch of anti-Semites who have latched onto Zionism to further their causes.

You make good points, but I would be cautious about labeling people so quickly.

For example, "fringe rabbis" - some of them are not so fringe, they are quite influential within specific communities or religious contingents and that causes political problems for Israel. We also see this sort of argument style when people bring up radical Islamic cleric youtubes and present it as mainstream. It's not always mainstream but - it is influential within certain groups.

I agree, everyone has their own agendas and reasons, but I am very wary of the ready application of "anti-semite" and "racist" - they get used to quickly.

I try to look at definitions:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage.

Generally - when people start to argue from stereotypes as you pointed out, or even more obvious, dredging up conspiracy theories such as Jews control the media etc etc - then that's pretty much an indication.

I think anti-Zionism is a bit more cloudy but I am no longer sure I understand the term.

I also find many many times that simply arguing a pro-Palestinian viewpoint gets a person labeled as "anti-semite".

 

[Coyote]

Here is a question for each poster - in your view, what is Zionism?

 

[patrickcaturday]

Zionism is a political philosophy / ideology which seeks as its primary goal to confiscate Arab / Palestinian land and allocate it to Jews !!!

Sorry the quote function did not work for me this time. From Coyote

Here is a question for each poster - in your view, what is Zionism?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Here is a question for each poster - in your view, what is Zionism?

Respectfully, the fact that you're asking the question is part of the problem.

Zionism is a movement that advocates the existence of a Jewish State in Israel.

That's it. Plain and simple.

When you open up the term to be defined by each person, you play into the hands of those who are trying to mask anti-Semitism. You allow them to say, "oh, well for me, Zionism means the desire to remove all non-Jews from Israel," or "for me, Zionism means the goal of displacing Arabs to expand Jewish land." Neither of these are accurate definitions of Zionism, but many anti-Semites will say things like that so they can hide their bigotry behind the term "anti-Zionism."

So it turns out that Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty was wrong when he said “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

Words have meanings.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Zionism is a political philosophy / ideology which seeks to as its primary goal to confiscate Arab / Palestinian land and allocate it to Jews !!!

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[pbel]

Here is a question for each poster - in your view, what is Zionism?

Respectfully, the fact that you're asking the question is part of the problem.

Zionism is a movement that advocates the existence of a Jewish State in Israel.

That's it. Plain and simple.

When you open up the term to be defined by each person, you play into the hands of those who are trying to mask anti-Semitism. You allow them to say, "oh, well for me, Zionism means the desire to remove all non-Jews from Israel," or "for me, Zionism means the goal of displacing Arabs to expand Jewish land." Neither of these are accurate definitions of Zionism, but many anti-Semites will say things like that so they can hide their bigotry behind the term "anti-Zionism."

So it turns out that Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty was wrong when he said “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

Words have meanings.

That is the absurdity of your claims...How about anti-Semites like Harry Truman whose support at the UN was crucial for Israel to become a State? Why did he put his Nation's Interest for a puppet state to put fear into the Arab Oil states over his obvious bigotry...

There are people on the boards who are bigots and many are Zionists.

 

[Lipush]

Zionism is a political philosophy / ideology which seeks as its primary goal to confiscate Arab / Palestinian land and allocate it to Jews !!!

Sorry the quote function did not work for me this time. From Coyote

Here is a question for each poster - in your view, what is Zionism?

TOTAL BULLSHIT.

But ok.

You guys proved you know jack about Zionism, but you're not even interested to learn, so why bother.

 

[Lipush]

I suspect most people don't have a clear understanding of what Zionism is - myself included. It's a term that seems to be used loosely and broadly and perhaps has drifted away from it's original definition.

I always assumed Zionists referred to the more extreme views such as those represented by the settler movement, views which believe that a religion has granted a people the right to an entire region irregardless of peoples already living there. That is a view not shared by all Jews. I don't think it's even shared by most Jews. It is, however, a view shared by many religious extremists who feel "entitled" by virtue of their religious identity - for example Muslim extremists.

Disliking that view and speaking critically of it is not "hating Jews".

I think you are right though, that in some cases - anti-Zionism is also a subtle way of masking anti-semitism. What determines it though is not opposition to Zionism, but the bigger picture of the person's arguments.

'Settlers' have no "movement"

People talk about settlements as they do on people who have clear ideology of taking over Palestinian lands.

But about half of the settlers sit in the settlements simply because the housing is cheaper in those areas.

Many of them couldn't care less about politics.

I don't agree. From what I've read they feel entitled to those lands and they seem to represent a fundamentalist - frontier sort of mentality. That's the attitude that comes across as well as a deliberate attempt to create more and more new settlements to "stake their claims".

Yet they are being waved at with things they're not to be blamed for.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Actually - I'm not even sure what Zionism is anymore. Does it mean the same thing now as it did at the turn of the century? Or has it simply become a slur?

I am sorry, but that is not a question of weather you agree or not, it's a FACT.

And a FACT I know because I KNOW personally more than 1 or 2 settlers.

And as the saying goes- "What is seen from here, is not seen from there".