Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[Indofred]

Are all Muslims terrorists because some are and some express support for terrorism?

No, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've written on this thread or any other, so I'm not sure why you'd ask that question.

Because, Sir, to lump all of a group together as criminals because some of that number are, is wrong.
I attack those who claim 'Muslims' are whatever for the same reason as I attack your warped logic about Jews.

 

[Coyote]

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

Actually, that is wrong - the Cohen gene is not exclusive to Jews. Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well it sure as hell ain't found in the Palestinians. There are types of this gene that only Jews have the most of, and the others that also have it are in lands that Jews used to live in and migrated out of, ie Kurds, Iraq, (I have relatives that are Iraqi / Kurdish Jews) so it's certainly plausible that this gene exists in those populations.

Yes, it is: Jews, Palestinians have close genetic ties, say researchers - Beliefnet News

Ariella Oppenheim Ph.D., a researcher at Hebrew University and the Hadassah Medical School labs, has published the result of DNA studies which show that both the Palestinians and Jews are descended from the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey.

That should astonish no one since both the Bible and the Koran say the Jews and Arabs are descended from a common ancestor, an ancient Caldean who the Koran calls Ibrahim. The Bible says he was named Abraham.

Perhaps more surprising, Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews.

Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line.

“We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.​

Also: Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world. ​

As I said the Palestinians are exactly the same as the neighboring Arabs such as the Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians. And clearly today's Jews are a different people. They are as related to the Palestinians as they would be to Egyptians or Jordanians.

That isn't supported by genetic research. Differences appear very minor with considerable overlap among the different groups. I think you need to give up on that line of argument as a justification for any sort of special considerations. They're effectively the same people, with long standing ties to that region. Neither side can claim any "special connection" or claim to be indiginous where the other is not.

 

[Coyote]

Again, that makes no sense. By definition, the Muslim "people" came to being when the religion of Islam was established. The ancestors of those people were not Muslims.

Otherwise... Jews could say that Abraham's ancestors were Jewish, because he ultimately became the first Jew.

So... going back to the point...

Jews resided in Israel before the Muslims existed.

What I meant was when the Muslims conquored territories there were people already there many of whom probably became Muslim, so the people pre-date the Muslim conquest.

The Jewish religion existed in Israel before the Muslim religion - but the people were the same regardless of what they called themselves. Does that make sense?

No, that's just plain wrong. This is not simply about genetics. If it were, then one could argue that every person in the United States is, from a genetic standpoint, an African-American (as it is theorized that humans originated in Africa).

I agree, it's not "simply" about genetics but if you are going to try to make the argument that one group has a greater right than another group based upon "roots" then it comes down to genetics because that entire population - seperated primarily by religion - has been there a very long time and they can all claim ties.

The Jewish people - characterized by a shared history, culture, religion and moral code - began in Israel long before the Muslim people - characterized by their shared history, culture, religion and moral code - came into being.

The Jewish people that existed prior to Islam are not culturally the same as the Jewish people that exist today and to use that as a means to seperate them from their identical brothers who share the same Middle Eastern culture but follow a different religion seems dishonest. Their ancestors have all occupied the same territory even if they followed different religious paths. Why should one be granted special dispensation over another by virtue of religion alone?

The fact that both might be able to trace their origins to Canaanites or some other extinct classes of people that predate both religions is entirely immaterial to any meaningful discussion.

If it's "immaterial" then why do people bring it up as a means of staking a historical claim?

This all started with Pinneped's assertion that the Jews displaced the "native people." This is not correct because the Jews are native to Israel.

Seal's assertion is no more incorrect than the assertion being made that the Palestinians are not native to Israel.

 

[Coyote]

This thread has been cleaned - get back on topic please. Take your personal fights to the Flame Zone!

As reminder:
"Zone 2": Political Forum / Israel and Palestine Forum / Race Relations/Racism Forum / Religion & Ethics Forum: Baiting and polarizing OP's (Opening Posts), and thread titles risk the thread either being moved or trashed. Keep it relevant, choose wisely. Each post must contain content relevant to the thread subject, in addition to any flame. No trolling. No hit and run flames. No hijacking threads.

 

[Roudy]

Actually, that is wrong - the Cohen gene is not exclusive to Jews. Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well it sure as hell ain't found in the Palestinians. There are types of this gene that only Jews have the most of, and the others that also have it are in lands that Jews used to live in and migrated out of, ie Kurds, Iraq, (I have relatives that are Iraqi / Kurdish Jews) so it's certainly plausible that this gene exists in those populations.

Yes, it is: Jews, Palestinians have close genetic ties, say researchers - Beliefnet News

Ariella Oppenheim Ph.D., a researcher at Hebrew University and the Hadassah Medical School labs, has published the result of DNA studies which show that both the Palestinians and Jews are descended from the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey.

That should astonish no one since both the Bible and the Koran say the Jews and Arabs are descended from a common ancestor, an ancient Caldean who the Koran calls Ibrahim. The Bible says he was named Abraham.

Perhaps more surprising, Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews.

Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line.

“We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.​

Also: Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world. ​

As I said the Palestinians are exactly the same as the neighboring Arabs such as the Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians. And clearly today's Jews are a different people. They are as related to the Palestinians as they would be to Egyptians or Jordanians.

That isn't supported by genetic research. Differences appear very minor with considerable overlap among the different groups. I think you need to give up on that line of argument as a justification for any sort of special considerations. They're effectively the same people, with long standing ties to that region. Neither side can claim any "special connection" or claim to be indiginous where the other is not.

What's your point? You just proved my point. Jews are a Semetic people so of course there would be common genes with people in the region. The Palestinians are identical to their neighboring Arabs. There is no "Palestinian people" that differs them from Syrians Jordanians or Egyptians. But there are differences between Jews and other Semites in the region, including the Palestinians.

Finding common genes between the British and Germans doesn't give Germans rights to British territory. LOL.

 

[Roudy]

"

The Jewish people that existed prior to Islam are not culturally the same as the Jewish people that exist today."

That statement is a half truth. The Jewish people assimilated, but have kept their own unique identity, culture, traditions, language, music, foods, etc. and their religion and history have everything to do with it.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Indestructible-Jews-Max-I-Dimont/dp/0451075943]Indestructible Jews: Max I. Dimont: 9780451075949: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

A compelling and readable account of the four thousand year history of a people that spans the globe and transcends the ages. From the ancient and simple faith of a small tribe to a global religion with adherents in every nation, the path of the Jews is traced through countless expulsions and migrations, the great tragedy of the Holocaust, and the joy of founding a homeland in Israel. Putting the struggle of a persecuted people into perspective, Max Dimont asks whether the tragic sufferings of the Jews have actually been the key to their survival, as other nations and races vanished into obscurity. Here is a book for Jews and non-Jews to enjoy, evoking a proud heritage while offering a hopeful vision of the future.

 

[patrickcaturday]

What I meant was when the Muslims conquored territories there were people already there many of whom probably became Muslim, so the people pre-date the Muslim conquest.

The Jewish religion existed in Israel before the Muslim religion - but the people were the same regardless of what they called themselves. Does that make sense?

No, that's just plain wrong. This is not simply about genetics. If it were, then one could argue that every person in the United States is, from a genetic standpoint, an African-American (as it is theorized that humans originated in Africa).

I agree, it's not "simply" about genetics but if you are going to try to make the argument that one group has a greater right than another group based upon "roots" then it comes down to genetics because that entire population - seperated primarily by religion - has been there a very long time and they can all claim ties.



The Jewish people that existed prior to Islam are not culturally the same as the Jewish people that exist today and to use that as a means to seperate them from their identical brothers who share the same Middle Eastern culture but follow a different religion seems dishonest. Their ancestors have all occupied the same territory even if they followed different religious paths. Why should one be granted special dispensation over another by virtue of religion alone?

The fact that both might be able to trace their origins to Canaanites or some other extinct classes of people that predate both religions is entirely immaterial to any meaningful discussion.

If it's "immaterial" then why do people bring it up as a means of staking a historical claim?

This all started with Pinneped's assertion that the Jews displaced the "native people." This is not correct because the Jews are native to Israel.

Seal's assertion is no more incorrect than the assertion being made that the Palestinians are not native to Israel.

I have known Seal for a while now and I read most of his posts. Seal has never made the claim that the origin of a religion makes a person who practices that native to the place. Hell if that were true then Catholics could claim to be native to Israel/Palestine !!!

 

[MHunterB]

"the origin of a religion makes a person who practices that native to the place."

Perhaps I'm just having difficulty following - but I didn't think anyone had made such an argument.

What I do think, is that a great many people do not understand the results of the genetic studies very well - not to cast aspersions on anyone else's intelligence nor education. This isn't 'introductory' level genetics like blood typing, so of course most of us aren't going to be conversant with the necessary material to understand the implications of the findings.

Ultimately, every one of us is related to everyone else: the issue here is a matter of degree and inter-relationships. Also, people in general tend to forget that genetics is a study of *populations* rather than individuals. Another difficulty in understanding the studies is many individuals' confusion between 'genotype' and 'phenotype' Genotype-phenotype distinction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. IOW, people's genetic make-up is not always obvious or a match for their 'look' or mannerisms, etc.

 

[patrickcaturday]

"the origin of a religion makes a person who practices that native to the place."

Perhaps I'm just having difficulty following - but I didn't think anyone had made such an argument.

What I do think, is that a great many people do not understand the results of the genetic studies very well - not to cast aspersions on anyone else's intelligence nor education. This isn't 'introductory' level genetics like blood typing, so of course most of us aren't going to be conversant with the necessary material to understand the implications of the findings.

Ultimately, every one of us is related to everyone else: the issue here is a matter of degree and inter-relationships. Also, people in general tend to forget that genetics is a study of *populations* rather than individuals. Another difficulty in understanding the studies is many individuals' confusion between 'genotype' and 'phenotype' Genotype-phenotype distinction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. IOW, people's genetic make-up is not always obvious or a match for their 'look' or mannerisms, etc.

Don't twist Seal's words. What he has basically said is that Israel is basing its policy of right to return on the ideology of religion rather than upon genetics ie they do not genetically test rather they rely on religious factors.
Karl Marx was the founder on the ideology of communism does that mean that everyone in the world who is a communist has the right to return to Germany, Karl Marx's native land. If this is true then the Zionists should be returning to Russia because that is where the ideology of Zionisim was founded.

 

[Coyote]

Well it sure as hell ain't found in the Palestinians. There are types of this gene that only Jews have the most of, and the others that also have it are in lands that Jews used to live in and migrated out of, ie Kurds, Iraq, (I have relatives that are Iraqi / Kurdish Jews) so it's certainly plausible that this gene exists in those populations.

Yes, it is: Jews, Palestinians have close genetic ties, say researchers - Beliefnet News

Ariella Oppenheim Ph.D., a researcher at Hebrew University and the Hadassah Medical School labs, has published the result of DNA studies which show that both the Palestinians and Jews are descended from the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey.

That should astonish no one since both the Bible and the Koran say the Jews and Arabs are descended from a common ancestor, an ancient Caldean who the Koran calls Ibrahim. The Bible says he was named Abraham.

Perhaps more surprising, Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews.

Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line.

“We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.​

Also: Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world. ​

As I said the Palestinians are exactly the same as the neighboring Arabs such as the Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians. And clearly today's Jews are a different people. They are as related to the Palestinians as they would be to Egyptians or Jordanians.

That isn't supported by genetic research. Differences appear very minor with considerable overlap among the different groups. I think you need to give up on that line of argument as a justification for any sort of special considerations. They're effectively the same people, with long standing ties to that region. Neither side can claim any "special connection" or claim to be indiginous where the other is not.

What's your point? You just proved my point. Jews are a Semetic people so of course there would be common genes with people in the region. The Palestinians are identical to their neighboring Arabs. There is no "Palestinian people" that differs them from Syrians Jordanians or Egyptians. But there are differences between Jews and other Semites in the region, including the Palestinians.

Finding common genes between the British and Germans doesn't give Germans rights to British territory. LOL.

The genetic links show that there is considerable overlap - Palestinians have the so-called Cohen gene and not all Jews do. The only thing it proves is really, they are essentially the same and they all go back very far. Trying to make a case for possession based on ancient lineage is a farce - they're both "indiginous".

 

[toastman]

I agree, it's not "simply" about genetics but if you are going to try to make the argument that one group has a greater right than another group based upon "roots" then it comes down to genetics because that entire population - seperated primarily by religion - has been there a very long time and they can all claim ties.



The Jewish people that existed prior to Islam are not culturally the same as the Jewish people that exist today and to use that as a means to seperate them from their identical brothers who share the same Middle Eastern culture but follow a different religion seems dishonest. Their ancestors have all occupied the same territory even if they followed different religious paths. Why should one be granted special dispensation over another by virtue of religion alone?



If it's "immaterial" then why do people bring it up as a means of staking a historical claim?



Seal's assertion is no more incorrect than the assertion being made that the Palestinians are not native to Israel.

I have known Seal for a while now and I read most of his posts. Seal has never made the claim that the origin of a religion makes a person who practices that native to the place. Hell if that were true then Catholics could claim to be native to Israel/Palestine !!!

So you've read all of Seal's 4272 posts? Damn, that's impressive !

 

[MHunterB]

"the origin of a religion makes a person who practices that native to the place."

Perhaps I'm just having difficulty following - but I didn't think anyone had made such an argument.

What I do think, is that a great many people do not understand the results of the genetic studies very well - not to cast aspersions on anyone else's intelligence nor education. This isn't 'introductory' level genetics like blood typing, so of course most of us aren't going to be conversant with the necessary material to understand the implications of the findings.

Ultimately, every one of us is related to everyone else: the issue here is a matter of degree and inter-relationships. Also, people in general tend to forget that genetics is a study of *populations* rather than individuals. Another difficulty in understanding the studies is many individuals' confusion between 'genotype' and 'phenotype' Genotype-phenotype distinction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. IOW, people's genetic make-up is not always obvious or a match for their 'look' or mannerisms, etc.

Don't twist Seal's words. What he has basically said is that Israel is basing its policy of right to return on the ideology of religion rather than upon genetics ie they do not genetically test rather they rely on religious factors.
Karl Marx was the founder on the ideology of communism does that mean that everyone in the world who is a communist has the right to return to Germany, Karl Marx's native land. If this is true then the Zionists should be returning to Russia because that is where the ideology of Zionisim was founded.

I have NO idea why you're insisting I've 'twisted seal's words': I quoted *your* description of his words at the beginning - and then I went on in another paragraph to discuss a second idea which referred to the general conversation.

Perhaps you can explain to me, PC - but there was NOTHING I put in that post which was intended to 'twist' anyone's words or to disparage anyone.

 

[MHunterB]

Yes, it is: Jews, Palestinians have close genetic ties, say researchers - Beliefnet News

Ariella Oppenheim Ph.D., a researcher at Hebrew University and the Hadassah Medical School labs, has published the result of DNA studies which show that both the Palestinians and Jews are descended from the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey.

That should astonish no one since both the Bible and the Koran say the Jews and Arabs are descended from a common ancestor, an ancient Caldean who the Koran calls Ibrahim. The Bible says he was named Abraham.

Perhaps more surprising, Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews.

Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line.

“We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.​

Also: Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world. ​

That isn't supported by genetic research. Differences appear very minor with considerable overlap among the different groups. I think you need to give up on that line of argument as a justification for any sort of special considerations. They're effectively the same people, with long standing ties to that region. Neither side can claim any "special connection" or claim to be indiginous where the other is not.

What's your point? You just proved my point. Jews are a Semetic people so of course there would be common genes with people in the region. The Palestinians are identical to their neighboring Arabs. There is no "Palestinian people" that differs them from Syrians Jordanians or Egyptians. But there are differences between Jews and other Semites in the region, including the Palestinians.

Finding common genes between the British and Germans doesn't give Germans rights to British territory. LOL.

The genetic links show that there is considerable overlap - Palestinians have the so-called Cohen gene and not all Jews do. The only thing it proves is really, they are essentially the same and they all go back very far. Trying to make a case for possession based on ancient lineage is a farce - they're both "indiginous".

That's such an extreme oversimplification nearly to the point of uselessness for any scientific purpose, Coyote. The *frequency* with which the Cohen gene appears is at least as important as its total presence/absence..... BUT since we're not discussing this on the 'scientfic' level, that oversimplification is somewhat useful.

As to the 'both are indigenous' - do you mean specifically to the area of the Mandate not including Jordan?

My apologies for being so 'nit-picky', but it makes me actually queasy to use such gross oversimplifications because of their inaccuracy: I've got the feeling we'll have to revisit this to correct something later. It's kind of like some folks might get 'ishy' about not balancing a checkbook closer than about $50.......

 

[Coyote]

What's your point? You just proved my point. Jews are a Semetic people so of course there would be common genes with people in the region. The Palestinians are identical to their neighboring Arabs. There is no "Palestinian people" that differs them from Syrians Jordanians or Egyptians. But there are differences between Jews and other Semites in the region, including the Palestinians.

Finding common genes between the British and Germans doesn't give Germans rights to British territory. LOL.

The genetic links show that there is considerable overlap - Palestinians have the so-called Cohen gene and not all Jews do. The only thing it proves is really, they are essentially the same and they all go back very far. Trying to make a case for possession based on ancient lineage is a farce - they're both "indiginous".

That's such an extreme oversimplification nearly to the point of uselessness for any scientific purpose, Coyote. The *frequency* with which the Cohen gene appears is at least as important as its total presence/absence..... BUT since we're not discussing this on the 'scientfic' level, that oversimplification is somewhat useful.

As to the 'both are indigenous' - do you mean specifically to the area of the Mandate not including Jordan?

My apologies for being so 'nit-picky', but it makes me actually queasy to use such gross oversimplifications because of their inaccuracy: I've got the feeling we'll have to revisit this to correct something later. It's kind of like some folks might get 'ishy' about not balancing a checkbook closer than about $50.......

No, I mean to the broader area. People moved around a lot.

I think the whole idea of either side trying to claim an "indiginous" specialness is false. They've all got ancient roots and they all deserve to be there.

They just need to deal with it and with each other without creating fiction.

 

[MHunterB]

"Don't twist Seal's words. What he has basically said is that Israel is basing its policy of right to return on the ideology of religion rather than upon genetics ie they do not genetically test rather they rely on religious factors.
Karl Marx was the founder on the ideology of communism does that mean that everyone in the world who is a communist has the right to return to Germany, Karl Marx's native land. If this is true then the Zionists should be returning to Russia because that is where the ideology of Zionisim was founded. "

PatCat, Zionism was not 'founded in Russia' as you asserted. That is incorrect: it is an integral part of Judaism and has been so for a very long time - since the Babylonian Captivity, in fact. If you read through even the Christian 'OT' (which isn't the same thing at all as the TaNaKh: the 'OT' is a Christian representation of the TaNaKh) - you will see quite a lot of references to Jerusalem, to 'Zion', to our home. "Next year in Jerusalem" is one way our sage kept the concept of our peoplehood alive after the Temple was destroyed and we were exiled the first time. And, as we did get to return after that exile - we have all the time since had reason to believe we would return again.

 

[patrickcaturday]

A couple of questions. What gives Jews the right to establish a state in the modern day Middle East ??? and Why did you just blow by my example of Karl Marx and Communism ???
Also please don't quote me out of context because to me that is a twisting of words !!!

 

[toastman]

I have NO idea why you're insisting I've 'twisted seal's words': I quoted *your* description of his words at the beginning - and then I went on in another paragraph to discuss a second idea which referred to the general conversation.

Perhaps you can explain to me, PC - but there was NOTHING I put in that post which was intended to 'twist' anyone's words or to disparage anyone.

A couple of questions. What gives Jews the right to establish a state in the modern day Middle East ??? and Why did you just blow by my example of Karl Marx and Communism ???
Also please don't quote me out of context because to me that is a twisting of words !!!

What gives ANY people the right to establish a state in the Middle East

 

[MHunterB]

The genetic links show that there is considerable overlap - Palestinians have the so-called Cohen gene and not all Jews do. The only thing it proves is really, they are essentially the same and they all go back very far. Trying to make a case for possession based on ancient lineage is a farce - they're both "indiginous".

That's such an extreme oversimplification nearly to the point of uselessness for any scientific purpose, Coyote. The *frequency* with which the Cohen gene appears is at least as important as its total presence/absence..... BUT since we're not discussing this on the 'scientfic' level, that oversimplification is somewhat useful.

As to the 'both are indigenous' - do you mean specifically to the area of the Mandate not including Jordan?

My apologies for being so 'nit-picky', but it makes me actually queasy to use such gross oversimplifications because of their inaccuracy: I've got the feeling we'll have to revisit this to correct something later. It's kind of like some folks might get 'ishy' about not balancing a checkbook closer than about $50.......

No, I mean to the broader area. People moved around a lot.

I think the whole idea of either side trying to claim an "indiginous" specialness is false. They've all got ancient roots and they all deserve to be there.

They just need to deal with it and with each other without creating fiction.

Since you mean 'to the broader area' - then the majority of Jewish Israeli are indeed 'indigenous' because they are Mizrachi or Sephardi. And the Askenazim re *also* 'indigenous' because they have genetic commonalities with the M & S Jews which non-Jewish populations in Eastern Europe do not possess.

I am REALLY REALLY tired of hearing the noise about 'Askenazim aren't real Jews' and such like: it does not have a factual (genetic) basis, and that should be the end of that part of the 'discussion'.

 

[MHunterB]

"Don't twist Seal's words. What he has basically said is that Israel is basing its policy of right to return on the ideology of religion rather than upon genetics ie they do not genetically test rather they rely on religious factors.
Karl Marx was the founder on the ideology of communism does that mean that everyone in the world who is a communist has the right to return to Germany, Karl Marx's native land. If this is true then the Zionists should be returning to Russia because that is where the ideology of Zionisim was founded. "

PatCat, Zionism was not 'founded in Russia' as you asserted. That is incorrect: it is an integral part of Judaism and has been so for a very long time - since the Babylonian Captivity, in fact. If you read through even the Christian 'OT' (which isn't the same thing at all as the TaNaKh: the 'OT' is a Christian representation of the TaNaKh) - you will see quite a lot of references to Jerusalem, to 'Zion', to our home. "Next year in Jerusalem" is one way our sage kept the concept of our peoplehood alive after the Temple was destroyed and we were exiled the first time. And, as we did get to return after that exile - we have all the time since had reason to believe we would return again.

??? - Did you not see this post before, PatCat? That 'analogy' is rooted in a falsehood - it cannot produce truthful results.

 

[patrickcaturday]

"Don't twist Seal's words. What he has basically said is that Israel is basing its policy of right to return on the ideology of religion rather than upon genetics ie they do not genetically test rather they rely on religious factors.
Karl Marx was the founder on the ideology of communism does that mean that everyone in the world who is a communist has the right to return to Germany, Karl Marx's native land. If this is true then the Zionists should be returning to Russia because that is where the ideology of Zionisim was founded. "

PatCat, Zionism was not 'founded in Russia' as you asserted. That is incorrect: it is an integral part of Judaism and has been so for a very long time - since the Babylonian Captivity, in fact. If you read through even the Christian 'OT' (which isn't the same thing at all as the TaNaKh: the 'OT' is a Christian representation of the TaNaKh) - you will see quite a lot of references to Jerusalem, to 'Zion', to our home. "Next year in Jerusalem" is one way our sage kept the concept of our peoplehood alive after the Temple was destroyed and we were exiled the first time. And, as we did get to return after that exile - we have all the time since had reason to believe we would return again.

??? - Did you not see this post before, PatCat? That 'analogy' is rooted in a falsehood - it cannot produce truthful results.

Proto-Zionists include the (Lithuanian) Vilna Gaon, (Russian) Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk, (Bosnian) Rabbi Judah Alkalai[9] (German) Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, and (British) Sir Moses Montefiore.[10] Other advocates of Jewish independence include (American) Mordecai Manuel Noah, (Russian) Leon Pinsker and (German) Moses Hess.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zionism as an organized political movement began in many places most prominant among them is Russia.
You need to be a little more expansive and clear how is the anology rooted in a falsehood, or is this just your way of dodging the question