Stop selling ethanol and see what happens

[CrusaderFrank]

A study came along this past week from economists at Iowa State University and the University of Wisconsin that found that if ethanol production came to an immediate halt, the estimated gasoline price increase would be what the researcher described as “historic proportions,” ranging from 41 to 92 percent.

That’s roughly $5.50 to $7.50 of gasoline per gallon.

The same research team, in a study sponsored by the Renewable Fuels Association and released by the Center for Agricultural and Rural Development (CARD), found that the increased use of ethanol reduced wholesale gasoline prices by an average of $0.89 per gallon in 2010. The average effect increased to $0.89 per gallon, and the regional impact ranges from $0.58 per gallon on the East Coast to $1.37 per gallon in the Midwest, according to the study’s authors.

Ethanol In Pottersville

Thought this was interesting.

Sounds like something Obama Energy Secretary Steve "Somehow, we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to levels in Europe" Chu would support in a heartbeat

 

[FireFly]

I have been burning E85 Ethanol for about 10 years & I love it. last time I filled up gas was $3.99 & E85 was $3.05 & people were waiting in line at the E85 pump. That is definitely holding down gasoline prices & lower gas prices creates jobs in this country. The ethanol industry also creates jobs in this country. U.S. ethanol production will eliminate the need for more than 212 million barrels of imported crude oil worth $21 billion in 2011. That is a real genuine stimulus plan if there ever was one.

Then what you love is subsidizing because that is the only way ethanol can cost what it costs. If ethanol actuallyg had to compete in a free market it either would not exist because farmers couldn't make money on how little they would have to charge for it or it would cost more that gas and no one would buy it.

Well since ethanol saves the USA $21 billion worth of imported crude oil & it's subsidies only cost the USA $7 billion, I will take that 3 to 1 yearly profit on investment any day. It is not a subsidy if you profit from it. It is an investment.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have been burning E85 Ethanol for about 10 years & I love it. last time I filled up gas was $3.99 & E85 was $3.05 & people were waiting in line at the E85 pump. That is definitely holding down gasoline prices & lower gas prices creates jobs in this country. The ethanol industry also creates jobs in this country. U.S. ethanol production will eliminate the need for more than 212 million barrels of imported crude oil worth $21 billion in 2011. That is a real genuine stimulus plan if there ever was one.

Then what you love is subsidizing because that is the only way ethanol can cost what it costs. If ethanol actuallyg had to compete in a free market it either would not exist because farmers couldn't make money on how little they would have to charge for it or it would cost more that gas and no one would buy it.

Well since ethanol saves the USA $21 billion worth of imported crude oil & it's subsidies only cost the USA $7 billion, I will take that 3 to 1 yearly profit on investment any day. It is not a subsidy if you profit from it. It is an investment.

Don't let made up numbers fool you into thinking you are saving money. You still have to pay at the pump for about 275 billion barrels of ethanol if you factor in the lower gas mileage. Then you have to pay higher maintenance costs on vehicles and it quickly becomes a net loss.

 

[lvcabbie]

The problem with ethanol is that producers use corn when there are plenty of other sources that would not adversely effect the cost of foods!!!!!
Corn is used in almost every packaged good found in a grocery store and is a vital foodstuff for livestock. Make it less available and the price rises. Those prices are passed on to EVERY American consumer!
And, ethanol is a joke!!!
I drove a taxi powered by LPN for six years! It was a good as the highest grade gasoline, produced less than 10% of the emissions and is a hundred times more plentiful than petroleum products!!!

 

[Momanohedhunter]

A study came along this past week from economists at Iowa State University and the University of Wisconsin that found that if ethanol production came to an immediate halt, the estimated gasoline price increase would be what the researcher described as “historic proportions,” ranging from 41 to 92 percent.

That’s roughly $5.50 to $7.50 of gasoline per gallon.

The same research team, in a study sponsored by the Renewable Fuels Association and released by the Center for Agricultural and Rural Development (CARD), found that the increased use of ethanol reduced wholesale gasoline prices by an average of $0.89 per gallon in 2010. The average effect increased to $0.89 per gallon, and the regional impact ranges from $0.58 per gallon on the East Coast to $1.37 per gallon in the Midwest, according to the study’s authors.

Ethanol In Pottersville

Thought this was interesting.

Odd, that Iowa State University and University of Wisconsin studies are sighted and taken as the gospel on the subject considering that they would be among some of the biggest losers if the ethanol subsidies went away. I also find it odd that ethanol, one of the most toxic liquids on the planet is supposed to save us from environmental disaster when the vehicles that grow the corn or what ever the producer makes it from run on diesel and get about four MPG if its well maintained and the trucks used to ship it also run on diesel and get around eight MPG going down hill and running perfect. To take a university's word on ethanol bringing down would be like believing Exxon if they said higher octane would lower gas prices. Its a blatant lie told to insure they stay off the financial chopping block.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

The problem with ethanol is that producers use corn when there are plenty of other sources that would not adversely effect the cost of foods!!!!!
Corn is used in almost every packaged good found in a grocery store and is a vital foodstuff for livestock. Make it less available and the price rises. Those prices are passed on to EVERY American consumer!
And, ethanol is a joke!!!
I drove a taxi powered by LPN for six years! It was a good as the highest grade gasoline, produced less than 10% of the emissions and is a hundred times more plentiful than petroleum products!!!

Yup. Anything high in cellulose will do. I know a guy who has a motorcycle that burns alcohol. He makes his fuel from day old bread and doughnuts. He also makes it from cat tails and is experimenting with lawn clippings. Engines run cooler on straight ethanol to.

 

[KissMy]

The problem with ethanol is that producers use corn when there are plenty of other sources that would not adversely effect the cost of foods!!!!!
Corn is used in almost every packaged good found in a grocery store and is a vital foodstuff for livestock. Make it less available and the price rises. Those prices are passed on to EVERY American consumer!
And, ethanol is a joke!!!
I drove a taxi powered by LPN for six years! It was a good as the highest grade gasoline, produced less than 10% of the emissions and is a hundred times more plentiful than petroleum products!!!

Yup. Anything high in cellulose will do. I know a guy who has a motorcycle that burns alcohol. He makes his fuel from day old bread and doughnuts. He also makes it from cat tails and is experimenting with lawn clippings. Engines run cooler on straight ethanol to.

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn. Sugar cane, switch grass & algae do not have a usable food co-product. They only create toxic waste. That means when you take away farm acreage to grow one of those, you truly decrease the worlds available food & drive up food prices. That does not happen with corn ethanol.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs.

 

[chikenwing]

1.5 gal fuel oil used for every 1 gal ethanol produced ,wheres the payoff??

 

[KissMy]

1.5 gal fuel oil used for every 1 gal ethanol produced ,wheres the payoff??

That is a total lie. Ethanol EROEI is 3:1. It produces 3 units of energy for every 1 unit consumed. The same as oil sands. the US also makes/saves $3 on ethanol for every $1 it cost us.

 

[Mr. H.]

Ethanol also pollutes groundwater. It's a containment issue. MTBE was railroaded out of the picture by the Ag lobby. They needed to do this to set the stage for ethanol blending.

 

[chikenwing]

1.5 gal fuel oil used for every 1 gal ethanol produced ,wheres the payoff??

That is a total lie. Ethanol EROEI is 3:1. It produces 3 units of energy for every 1 unit consumed. The same as oil sands. the US also makes $3 on ethanol for every $1 it cost us.

Really??!!,funny thing this was told to me by a Citgo Engineer as I installed a blending system at one of their terminals,no incentive to lie,just part of a conversation we had about ethanol.

Kinda straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

 

[chikenwing]

Ethanol is dead with out tax payers subsidizing it.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

The problem with ethanol is that producers use corn when there are plenty of other sources that would not adversely effect the cost of foods!!!!!
Corn is used in almost every packaged good found in a grocery store and is a vital foodstuff for livestock. Make it less available and the price rises. Those prices are passed on to EVERY American consumer!
And, ethanol is a joke!!!
I drove a taxi powered by LPN for six years! It was a good as the highest grade gasoline, produced less than 10% of the emissions and is a hundred times more plentiful than petroleum products!!!

Yup. Anything high in cellulose will do. I know a guy who has a motorcycle that burns alcohol. He makes his fuel from day old bread and doughnuts. He also makes it from cat tails and is experimenting with lawn clippings. Engines run cooler on straight ethanol to.

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn. Sugar cane, switch grass & algae do not have a usable food co-product. They only create toxic waste. That means when you take away farm acreage to grow one of those, you truly decrease the worlds available food & drive up food prices. That does not happen with corn ethanol.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs.

Fine and cool and all. I wont argue that. What I will argue is that corn is NOT the best medium to make ethanol, and folks in the ethanol making business will tell you as much. Anything high in cellulose makes the go go juice. It is also much cheaper to produce your own fuel with anything but corn. Ethanol is also very toxic. And to the guys who do the trading corn is corn. It makes food more expensive. It also gets hauled to the pump by commercial vehicles that use diesel. At this time it is $4.00 per gallon and will get about 6.5 MPG 8 if running superbly (not likely). And the tractors and farm vehicles are exempt from any emission standards in most states, or run on diesel as well, so I would ask what offsets the pollution from the equipment used in harvesting and producing this highly toxic substance and who does the cost of all that gas and diesel get passed on to ?

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Ethanol is dead with out tax payers subsidizing it.

It is a valid source of fuel, dont get me wrong, but that it is green, and has to be made from corn is a big fat lie. It is extremely toxic though. You get a better deal if you make your own from your garbage. I am saving for a still and I have an old moped I am going to convert. I will get nasty crazy MPG and all I have to do is pay a small tax towards maintaining the roads.

 

[chikenwing]

Ethanol is dead with out tax payers subsidizing it.

It is a valid source of fuel, dont get me wrong, but that it is green, and has to be made from corn is a big fat lie. It is extremely toxic though. You get a better deal if you make your own from your garbage. I am saving for a still and I have an old moped I am going to convert. I will get nasty crazy MPG and all I have to do is pay a small tax towards maintaining the roads.

Oh it has its place,its the BS thats being feed to people that makes it so wrong,cotton prices are on the rise,but hey I am burning ethanol!!!Ian feeling green!!

The terminal I installed the controls for blends,depending on the day about 20k gals a day into 18 wheelers for delivery to the staions,all is trucked 1 way about 275 miles from Jersey and this is just 1 terminal out of 4 they all get it the same place,just like your gas,dead head back for more day in and day out,this is not what they want you to think it is.

 

[KissMy]

The cost to make corn ethanol today is $2.40. The spot market price for ethanol today is $2.76. Price at the pump is $3.09

Who cares if cellulose or sugar cane makes ethanol? We grow & feed 12 billion bushels of #2 yellow field corn in this country every year for animal feed whether we make corn ethanol or not. The only change is we had to pay & use energy to grind corn into animal feed instead of converting corn to DDG animal feed at the ethanol plant located locally in farm country saving shipping fuel. Stopping corn ethanol does not stop the raising & transportation of corn. We used same fuel to ship corn to market as we now use to ship ethanol & DDG feed to market. There is no difference.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Ethanol is dead with out tax payers subsidizing it.

It is a valid source of fuel, dont get me wrong, but that it is green, and has to be made from corn is a big fat lie. It is extremely toxic though. You get a better deal if you make your own from your garbage. I am saving for a still and I have an old moped I am going to convert. I will get nasty crazy MPG and all I have to do is pay a small tax towards maintaining the roads.

Oh it has its place,its the BS thats being feed to people that makes it so wrong,cotton prices are on the rise,but hey I am burning ethanol!!!Ian feeling green!!

The terminal I installed the controls for blends,depending on the day about 20k gals a day into 18 wheelers for delivery to the staions,all is trucked 1 way about 275 miles from Jersey and this is just 1 terminal out of 4 they all get it the same place,just like your gas,dead head back for more day in and day out,this is not what they want you to think it is.

No it is not, you are dead on there. Just do the math on what fuel cost to deliver, and head back to the plant and multiply that number by say 500 to make it easey, and its clear what a scam it is.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

The cost to make corn ethanol today is $2.40. The spot market price for ethanol today is $2.76. Price at the pump is $3.09

Who cares if cellulose or sugar cane makes ethanol? We grow & feed 12 billion bushels of #2 yellow field corn in this country every year for animal feed whether we make corn ethanol or not. The only change is we had to pay & use energy to grind corn into animal feed instead of converting corn to DDG animal feed at the ethanol plant located locally in farm country saving shipping fuel. Stopping corn ethanol does not stop the raising & transportation of corn. We used same fuel to ship corn to market as we now use to ship ethanol & DDG feed to market. There is no difference.

I am not being clear. The ethanlo still has to be shipped to refinery's and then to the pump. So lets say it ships from Des Moines Iowa to say little rock Arkansas, thats 614 miles. So the commercial vehicle (truck) will fill up in Des moines we will say diesel costs about $3.00 a gallon (its more) so driver needs about 375 of his 425 gallon capacity that cost 1,125 dollars and another fill up on the return trip with an empty tanker. Divide that number by 2 or 3 hundred trucks and transporting it alone throws any benefit out the window. The cost of running the field equipment and wages also shoot the numbers way up, not to mention all the cost due to environmental regulations . Now, who do those cost get passed on to ? The only way you make it economical is if you make your own.

 

[chikenwing]

1.5 gals fuel oil to make 1 gal of ethanol,no matter how you slice it just doesn't make sense.

The only resone the oil companies use it because its mandated,and subsidized,they would not otherwise.

Its the trucking,petroleum products are moved around primarily by pipe line,way cheaper,ethanol is trucked,and most times a return trip to the distillery empty.

 

[KissMy]

1.5 gal fuel oil used for every 1 gal ethanol produced ,wheres the payoff??

That is a total lie. Ethanol EROEI is 3:1. It produces 3 units of energy for every 1 unit consumed. The same as oil sands. the US also makes $3 on ethanol for every $1 it cost us.

Really??!!,funny thing this was told to me by a Citgo Engineer as I installed a blending system at one of their terminals,no incentive to lie,just part of a conversation we had about ethanol.

Kinda straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Boy you are stupid. The Citgo man had every reason to lie to you. Ethanol is holding Gasoline prices down by over $1 a gallon. I proved that right here. Apparently you have a comprehension problem.