Still a Republican?

[no1tovote4]

We don't have caucuses in Florida. According to state law each major party has a state committee, but no candidate for the GOP state committee ever bothered to campaign for my vote. Furthermore, the GOP in Florida is very much a "good ol' boy network". I was planning to support a woman who wanted to challenge the Democrat incumbent in my CD in 2002. Since my CD is gerryymandered for a black Democrat the state Republican Party harassed my canididate to the point that she withdrew from the race. The GOP did not want a large black turnout in my CD to hurt other Republicans- namely Jeb Bush.

The Republican Party is too corrupt to save.

LOL. So instead of trying it you give up and go for one of those parties with the massive .5% of the vote? Exactly what kind of logic is that? Either one works with what they have, and becomes part of those making the decisions so that they can effect the party positively or they become part of the sidelines. Standing and watching as the new "conservative" president gives a ton a money away and opens the border hole even wider.

 

[Gunny]

He also managed to not do anything about abortion or give us school prayer or tax credits for people who paid taxes to support public schools while they sent their kids to private schools. Neither did he manage to ever submit a balanced budget to Congress.

First off, Congress submits the budget to the President, not vice-versa.

We had school prayer and abortion was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled against both. Yet you expect a Republican President to get a Dem Congress to support his stance on those issues?

School taxes are a state issue, not a Federal one.

 

[no1tovote4]

First off, Congress submits the budget to the President, not vice-versa.

We had school prayer and abortion was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled against both. Yet you expect a Republican President to get a Dem Congress to support his stance on those issues?

School taxes are a state issue, not a Federal one.

What he said...

Even NCLB is a mess that shouldn't have been mucked with. Schools are local and need to stay that way. Amendment 10 was written with a purpose.

 

[manu1959]

thread starter is a fraud..............

 

[flaja]

LOL. So instead of trying it you give up and go for one of those parties with the massive .5% of the vote? Exactly what kind of logic is that? Either one works with what they have, and becomes part of those making the decisions so that they can effect the party positively or they become part of the sidelines. Standing and watching as the new "conservative" president gives a ton a money away and opens the border hole even wider.

I simply refuse to continue rewarding the GOP with my vote. As long as you vote for the GOP no matter what, the GOP will assume that you are satisfied with how they govern and they will continue to govern the way they have been.

If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you still end up with evil. My vote is a matter of principle, not politics.

 

[flaja]

First off, Congress submits the budget to the President, not vice-versa.

Wrong. By law the president must submit an annual budget to Congress. But, the standard joke in D.C. is that this budget is always DOA.

We had school prayer and abortion was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled against both. Yet you expect a Republican President to get a Dem Congress to support his stance on those issues?

If you are talking about Reagan I point out that during the first 2 years of his first term the Republicans had a majority in the Senate and they had a working majority in the House because conservative Democrats joined them.

If you are talking about GWB, didn't his party control both Houses of Congress at one point?

Also note that late in the term of Democrat governor Lawton Chiles, here in Florida, the Republicans controlled the state Senate while Democrats still controlled the state House of Representatives. The legislature passed a bill that would have banned partial birth abortion. Chiles vetoed it. But, both houses of the legislature have been controlled by the Republicans for most (if not all?) of Republican governor Jeb Bush’s two terms. And the Republicans haven’t even bothered to introduce a bill to ban partial birth abortion.

School taxes are a state issue, not a Federal one.

A decent public school system is a matter of national security, so public schools are very much a federal issue.

 

[flaja]

What he said...

Even NCLB is a mess that shouldn't have been mucked with. Schools are local and need to stay that way. Amendment 10 was written with a purpose.

The U.S. Constitution does not expressly address public education; neither does it grant the federal government any specific power to be involved in education. However, a federal role in public education has been an accomplished fact over two centuries.

Two years before the Constitution was written the Confederation Congress enacted the Land Ordinance of 1785. This law divided the Northwest Territory into townships and reserved one square mile of each township to support public schools. The Northwest Ordinance of 1787, enacted while the Constitutional Convention was in progress, clarified the Land Ordinance and still reserved national land to support public education.

The Constitutional Convention rejected several proposals that would have established a national university- because the Convention believed that the Constitution, as it was written, already gave Congress the power to establish a university. In his first inaugural address George Washington called on Congress to either support existing universities or establish a national university.

The federal Homestead laws, like the Ordinances of 1785 and 1787, also reserved federal land to support public schools and the Morrill Land Grant Act gave federal land to the states for the purpose of establishing agricultural and mechanical arts colleges.

Clearly federal support of education, in both federal territories and in the states, has a historical precedence. The extent to which Congress can and should regulate the day to day operation of public schools, colleges and universities is debatable, but there can be no question that Congress has a vital and Constitutional role to play in our schools.

The 14th Amendment requires the states to provide equal protection of their laws to all citizens. If schools within any state do not have the same curriculum or use the same textbooks or if their teachers do not have the same training, education requirements or pay, then the schools are unequal and the state is not providing equal protection of the laws. Congress has the responsibility of enforcing the 14th Amendment and could thereby compel a state to operate its public school system in a uniform manner.

Some will argue that the 14th Amendment gives Congress no power to establish a nationally uniform school system. However, Congress can certainly regulate public education in order to regulate interstate commerce since no public school can exist or operate without obtaining products through interstate, or international, trade.

Article IV of the U.S. Constitution requires that each state grant full faith and credit to the public acts and records of all other states, and Congress can regulate how such acts and records are to be proven and what effect they will have. Grades and diplomas issued by public schools, colleges and universities are public records whenever a student or school graduate moves from one state to another, and Congress has the power to determine the conditions under which such grades and diplomas are issued.

Even if Congress did not have the power to establish a national university system, it certainly can establish a university within the confines of Washington, D.C. and it has the power to establish academies for the armed forces. Inherent in the power to establish such schools of higher education is a power to regulate admission requirements. Congress also has to consider the education of any person who may be eligible or obligated to serve in the armed forces. This clearly gives Congress the power to establish national K-12 education standards, which will prepare students for these schools of higher education or for military service.

All questions of the constitutionality of a federal education system aside, a national public school system is a matter of national security. America cannot remain the world's only superpower if our schools continue to produce graduates who are suitable only for minimum wage employment or who cannot function in America's democratic republic as fully informed citizens.

 

[flaja]

thread starter is a fraud..............

How so?

Can I help if I understand the issues and have a better grasp on reality than you do?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Faja, equal protection under the law doesn't mean all schools have to be the same. Maybe you should just become a mcdonalds franchisee to satisfy your compulsion to sameness.

 

[no1tovote4]

I simply refuse to continue rewarding the GOP with my vote. As long as you vote for the GOP no matter what, the GOP will assume that you are satisfied with how they govern and they will continue to govern the way they have been.

If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you still end up with evil. My vote is a matter of principle, not politics.

Who says I vote GOP no matter what? That's ridiculous! Working to change the party doesn't mean you simply vote for every GOP Candidate! This is a strawman!

 

[no1tovote4]

The U.S. Constitution does not expressly address public education; neither does it grant the federal government any specific power to be involved in education. However, a federal role in public education has been an accomplished fact over two centuries.

Okay, this is very flawed. The 10th Amendment specifically states that any unspecified powers in the Constitution (Education one of them) is a power either relegated to the individual or to the State. Hence the reason I mentioned that Amendment in my original post.

Also, the Federal Gov't's role in education before the NCLB act was only food for poor programs to ensure proper nutrition, not to directly fund and direct education from a centralized point.

Any other ridiculous argument followed was equally flawed because it was based on this inane and disingenuous precedent.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Okay, this is very flawed. The 10th Amendment specifically states that any unspecified powers in the Constitution (Education one of them) is a power either relegated to the individual or to the State. Hence the reason I mentioned that Amendment in my original post.

However, section 8 states

"and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;"

While not enumerated, it's easy to include education under general welfare.

If the money for that general welfare is coming from the Federal govt., they Federal govt. has a right to indicate how those moneys are spent, and therein is the power to regulate. If a state does not accept Federal funds, then they wouldn't have to comply with the funding requirements.

CL

 

[Eightball]

A Neo-Con is one who attempts to combine "Progressive" ideation with "Conservative Values" and you end up with NCLB & the Pill Bill, while forgetting the border is important during a "War on Terror" and selling the ports to the UAE...

A Theo-Con is the Religious Right...

While your at it attempting to fuzzily define what a neo-con is, could you please explain what you think the Religious Right is..........?

What is the religious right?.....? A bunch of radicals that are bent on destroying this nation......taking away liberties? If so......please support your definition.

What's your definition......?

 

[no1tovote4]

While your at it attempting to fuzzily define what a neo-con is, could you please explain what you think the Religious Right is..........?

What is the religious right?.....? A bunch of radicals that are bent on destroying this nation......taking away liberties? If so......please support your definition.

What's your definition......?

The religious right are those who wish to centralize law based in their religion. We must make a law because the Bible says it is wrong...

This gets inane. My "fuzzy" definition was rather clear. It is only fuzzy to those who deliberately wish to misunderstand so that they can attempt to misidentify themselves as intellectuals.

 

[no1tovote4]

However, section 8 states

"and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;"

While not enumerated, it's easy to include education under general welfare.

If the money for that general welfare is coming from the Federal govt., they Federal govt. has a right to indicate how those moneys are spent, and therein is the power to regulate. If a state does not accept Federal funds, then they wouldn't have to comply with the funding requirements.

CL

Previous rulings would show that to be incorrect. Amazingly this is a supposed Libertarian giving advice on how to make it so everything can be controlled by the Federal Government? Almost everything could be included in "General Welfare" if you wanted to force it in there with a crowbar. There is a reason for Amendment 10, and it isn't because they wished everything to be covered under the general welfare. They specifically left those powers (education is clearly a power as it can influence how the child will think later) not enumerated to other places.

 

[Eightball]

The religious right are those who wish to centralize law based in their religion. We must make a law because the Bible says it is wrong...

This gets inane. My "fuzzy" definition was rather clear. It is only fuzzy to those who deliberately wish to misunderstand so that they can attempt to misidentify themselves as intellectuals.

I get the idea from your post, and response that you're in some way a "victim" of the religious right and or Neo-cons too.

You seem to be saying that, biblical values of the RR, are not good for this nation.

Would you say that an anti-abortion stance is not good for this nation, as the majority of the RR strive for in their political involvement or desire?

Would you say that, secure borders, is a Christian/biblical stance.......?

There are many blue state folks that are staunch Democrats who totally agree that secure borders, and a stoppage of the illegals coming across our borders is appropriate. They feel that their very livelihoods/jobs are being threatened as well as their taxes are being used to support the welfare of folks that have broken our immigration laws. These are not RR's or Neo Cons......yet they might be in agreement.
*
I get the "drift" that you just plain don't like Chrisitan values.......or are anti-biblical..........

One good old test, that always shuts folks up......is, "If Jesus was here today..........what would He do, or What would He say? Would Jesus tell Christians to stop worrying about abortion? Would Jesus tell Christians to leave the political arena and just "blend in" to the populous, and shut-up? What would Jesus do, say, or think, if he were to walk into a planned parenthood clinic, or an abortion clinic? What would His response be? Would Jesus give Bill Mahre a big hug, and tell him, keep it up........your right on bro! Would he give Rosy O'Donald a big hug, and tell her........keep it up.......Sis...! He would love the two above mentioned, but I doubt He would be pleased with what they say about Christians(Christ ones).

I don't think Jesus would vent hatred, maybe more sadness at the plight of mankind's.....downward spiral into self-made suicidal philosophys.
*
Christians have every right to express their feelings, thoughts at the polls, and in who they support as an expression of their philosophical belief of life. If they believe that the constitutional right of a human being is ignored via abortion, they have a constitutional right to express their outrage, or angst at the polls, just as you have the right to disagree.
*
Bottom-line........this country is ruled by law........and laws are passed by majority or 2/3's majority. Some folks are willing to live with that........other's want it their way or the "highway".

I've noticed that after this recent election, you don't hear about conservatives/neo cons/RR's/Repubs running off to their "shrinks" to assuage their depression over this recent election result. Nor do you hear of the above folks wanting to relinquish their citizenship and run off to another country. These folks seem to be taking this in "stride", and are looking at what caused this loss, and are reassessing it without hand-wringing, as another group did in 2004 when they took a big hit in the loss category. Why is that..........Are we not overly upset, because we know........the left is right? Far from it. It's because we believe in the system, and we acknowledge when we've had our chance, and didn't come up to "snuff" as well as we promised. The American people spoke, they want change, we acknowledge their message.

The left........demands recounts...........they're victims......they're smarter, and they somehow have more empathy than the right.........therefore, because of this self endowed empathy trait, they are more equipped/deserving to lead. It is so self centered.......it's based on self endowed intellect, that comes full-circle, and some how confirms to themselves that they are the "ones" with the knowledge to lead......to preserve mankind......to preserve the environment........etc.. When you get down to it.....it's pitifully self-centered!

When someone comes along and utters, "Thus sayeth the Lord God Almighty", he/she is summarily dismissed as a lunatic, red-neck, unintellectual, backward, archaic, constrictive, anti-libertarian, anti-democratic, and anti-societal. What gives the "left" the right to claim an exclusive "handle" when it's the right time to fight, have peace, or anything. Where is the left's foundational basis or philosophy of motivation. Yes, you'll find it, but not in the bible............The left will use snippets of the bible, but not in total.........as it would be a self condemming enterprise.........Voltaire.....the man of enlightenment......whose philosophy has inevitably emptied every great house of Christian worship across Europe. Man doesn't need God.............He just needs himself................afterall.......he's just a result of more complex molecular/symbiotic/working structure than the lower creatures..............a result of an electric spark in some primordial soup back 3.5 billion years ago........but surely not of miraculous origin........

With that foundation..........how could one ever need a higher "anything" to guide one's life. In fact........with that foundation.........one can only assume to be a "victim" of the elements of this terrestrial ball called, "earth". A victim of the ebb and flow of weather, earthquakes, oceans, and predatorial creatures, etc....Of course man being the greatest predator of all.........but with a little eduation.......and inner goodness in all these creatures from the primordial soup.........things can only get better.

Without God........we can have a philosophy of happiness.....that things are getting better.......but religious folks will have to stand aside, as they must be marginalized.........like the Japanese Americans during WW2..........Jillian, another poster on the Message board has already mentioned,..........the Christian right must be "marginalized".(Let's hope marginalized isn't the initial baby step towards a "final solution").........when asked what that means.........no response........No response.......usually means........the response would most likely be repulsive to all at this time. So we must apply the old frog in the water pot with the heat gradually turned on approach........Assuage the American electorate/population into gradually disdaining biblical principles that were originally the back-bone, of the U.S. Feed the U.S. public via the media....sit-coms......movies.....music.....literature......a gradually slurry of anti-Christian ideas....., but not too quickly......gradually...........and wa la........One awakens one day........and Jesus, the Manger, the Star of David, become laughable to the populous......and part of a museum piece of the bygone era of American history.

Without Christians, and biblical ideas....we finally have our Utopia.......!!!

Intellect....and knowledge become the wave.......total human liberty taken to the very edge becomes common place......and accepted...........biblical teaching/preaching churches become branded as cults..........Christians and their beliefs become laughable or detestable......
*
The bible and or it's contained scripture......have endured for thousands of years...........and this time in the good old U.S.A. it will seem as though it's final demise has happened,..........with happy regards........., but I think time will reveal that this is just a wink or moment in human history, where a Greater Power(God), allowed man's free-will to take a course that will inevitably lead him back to the truth after some trial and error(Just like the Prodigal Son.). Man will flail away thinking he's making progress for the race, and finally he will give in and realize that he's just part of a bigger, "Lord Of The Flies" story of larger scale......Even choir boys when left alone, stranded,........on an island revert back to their true human nature, without the sustaining influence of their Creator. Yes, even liberals stranded on an island will realize(be convinced) that they are just shrouding a more base, nature that only can be saved outside of their own selves.
*

 

[no1tovote4]

I get the idea from your post, and response that you're in some way a "victim" of the religious right and or Neo-cons too.

You seem to be saying that, biblical values of the RR, are not good for this nation.

Would you say that an anti-abortion stance is not good for this nation, as the majority of the RR strive for in their political involvement or desire?

Would you say that, secure borders, is a Christian/biblical stance.......?

There are many blue state folks that are staunch Democrats who totally agree that secure borders, and a stoppage of the illegals coming across our borders is appropriate. They feel that their very livelihoods/jobs are being threatened as well as their taxes are being used to support the welfare of folks that have broken our immigration laws. These are not RR's or Neo Cons......yet they might be in agreement.
*
I get the "drift" that you just plain don't like Chrisitan values.......or are anti-biblical..........

One good old test, that always shuts folks up......is, "If Jesus was here today..........what would He do, or What would He say? Would Jesus tell Christians to stop worrying about abortion? Would Jesus tell Christians to leave the political arena and just "blend in" to the populous, and shut-up? What would Jesus do, say, or think, if he were to walk into a planned parenthood clinic, or an abortion clinic? What would His response be? Would Jesus give Bill Mahre a big hug, and tell him, keep it up........your right on bro! Would he give Rosy O'Donald a big hug, and tell her........keep it up.......Sis...! He would love the two above mentioned, but I doubt He would be pleased with what they say about Christians(Christ ones).

I don't think Jesus would vent hatred, maybe more sadness at the plight of mankind's.....downward spiral into self-made suicidal philosophys.
*
Christians have every right to express their feelings, thoughts at the polls, and in who they support as an expression of their philosophical belief of life. If they believe that the constitutional right of a human being is ignored via abortion, they have a constitutional right to express their outrage, or angst at the polls, just as you have the right to disagree.
*
Bottom-line........this country is ruled by law........and laws are passed by majority or 2/3's majority. Some folks are willing to live with that........other's want it their way or the "highway".

I've noticed that after this recent election, you don't hear about conservatives/neo cons/RR's/Repubs running off to their "shrinks" to assuage their depression over this recent election result. Nor do you hear of the above folks wanting to relinquish their citizenship and run off to another country. These folks seem to be taking this in "stride", and are looking at what caused this loss, and are reassessing it without hand-wringing, as another group did in 2004 when they took a big hit in the loss category. Why is that..........Are we not overly upset, because we know........the left is right? Far from it. It's because we believe in the system, and we acknowledge when we've had our chance, and didn't come up to "snuff" as well as we promised. The American people spoke, they want change, we acknowledge their message.

The left........demands recounts...........they're victims......they're smarter, and they somehow have more empathy than the right.........therefore, because of this self endowed empathy trait, they are more equipped/deserving to lead. It is so self centered.......it's based on self endowed intellect, that comes full-circle, and some how confirms to themselves that they are the "ones" with the knowledge to lead......to preserve mankind......to preserve the environment........etc.. When you get down to it.....it's pitifully self-centered!

When someone comes along and utters, "Thus sayeth the Lord God Almighty", he/she is summarily dismissed as a lunatic, red-neck, unintellectual, backward, archaic, constrictive, anti-libertarian, anti-democratic, and anti-societal. What gives the "left" the right to claim an exclusive "handle" when it's the right time to fight, have peace, or anything. Where is the left's foundational basis or philosophy of motivation. Yes, you'll find it, but not in the bible............The left will use snippets of the bible, but not in total.........as it would be a self condemming enterprise.........Voltaire.....the man of enlightenment......whose philosophy has inevitably emptied every great house of Christian worship across Europe. Man doesn't need God.............He just needs himself................afterall.......he's just a result of more complex molecular/symbiotic/working structure than the lower creatures..............a result of an electric spark in some primordial soup back 3.5 billion years ago........but surely not of miraculous origin........

With that foundation..........how could one ever need a higher "anything" to guide one's life. In fact........with that foundation.........one can only assume to be a "victim" of the elements of this terrestrial ball called, "earth". A victim of the ebb and flow of weather, earthquakes, oceans, and predatorial creatures, etc....Of course man being the greatest predator of all.........but with a little eduation.......and inner goodness in all these creatures from the primordial soup.........things can only get better.

Without God........we can have a philosophy of happiness.....that things are getting better.......but religious folks will have to stand aside, as they must be marginalized.........like the Japanese Americans during WW2..........Jillian, another poster on the Message board has already mentioned,..........the Christian right must be "marginalized".(Let's hope marginalized isn't the initial baby step towards a "final solution").........when asked what that means.........no response........No response.......usually means........the response would most likely be repulsive to all at this time. So we must apply the old frog in the water pot with the heat gradually turned on approach........Assuage the American electorate/population into gradually disdaining biblical principles that were originally the back-bone, of the U.S. Feed the U.S. public via the media....sit-coms......movies.....music.....literature......a gradually slurry of anti-Christian ideas....., but not too quickly......gradually...........and wa la........One awakens one day........and Jesus, the Manger, the Star of David, become laughable to the populous......and part of a museum piece of the bygone era of American history.

Without Christians, and biblical ideas....we finally have our Utopia.......!!!

Intellect....and knowledge become the wave.......total human liberty taken to the very edge becomes common place......and accepted...........biblical teaching/preaching churches become branded as cults..........Christians and their beliefs become laughable or detestable......
*
The bible and or it's contained scripture......have endured for thousands of years...........and this time in the good old U.S.A. it will seem as though it's final demise has happened,..........with happy regards........., but I think time will reveal that this is just a wink or moment in human history, where a Greater Power(God), allowed man's free-will to take a course that will inevitably lead him back to the truth after some trial and error(Just like the Prodigal Son.). Man will flail away thinking he's making progress for the race, and finally he will give in and realize that he's just part of a bigger, "Lord Of The Flies" story of larger scale......Even choir boys when left alone, stranded,........on an island revert back to their true human nature, without the sustaining influence of their Creator. Yes, even liberals stranded on an island will realize(be convinced) that they are just shrouding a more base, nature that only can be saved outside of their own selves.
*

I have never stated that I was ever a victim of any person ever. I get from your post that you love to build laughable strawmen. I have advised that there is no reason to center the party on the Religious Right, to pay attention to them and give them actual results but not focus on them to the detriment of all alse, how that could possibly be construed as "I'm a victim of the RR" is beyond me!

Oh, I know, it is because it is inconvenient to your attempt to "argue" with that amazingly easy to defeat strawman who really hasn't mentioned one thing in this thread! It's always easy to defeat that pretend argument rather than pay attention to what somebody actually stated.

 

[Gunny]

Wrong. By law the president must submit an annual budget to Congress. But, the standard joke in D.C. is that this budget is always DOA.

By law, the President submits a detailed budget REQUEST.
http://www.cbpp.org/3-7-03bud.htm



If you are talking about Reagan I point out that during the first 2 years of his first term the Republicans had a majority in the Senate and they had a working majority in the House because conservative Democrats joined them.

What you just posted works fine. Reagain didn't have the numbers in Congress to pass an anti-abortion law.


If you are talking about GWB, didn't his party control both Houses of Congress at one point?

Also note that late in the term of Democrat governor Lawton Chiles, here in Florida, the Republicans controlled the state Senate while Democrats still controlled the state House of Representatives. The legislature passed a bill that would have banned partial birth abortion. Chiles vetoed it. But, both houses of the legislature have been controlled by the Republicans for most (if not all?) of Republican governor Jeb Bush’s two terms. And the Republicans haven’t even bothered to introduce a bill to ban partial birth abortion.

I haven't voted in FL since 1980, so and don't follow FL politics.

A decent public school system is a matter of national security, so public schools are very much a federal issue.

Public schools are a state matter, not a Federal one. Your opinion otherwise doesn't change the facts.

 

[flaja]

Faja, equal protection under the law doesn't mean all schools have to be the same. Maybe you should just become a mcdonalds franchisee to satisfy your compulsion to sameness.

Since when? If one school's teachers get paid $50,000 a year in salary while a school across town or in another part of the state get paid only $30,000, how can the schools be equal when it comes to teacher quality and committment?

If one school has teachers with master’s degrees or doctorates while another school relies mostly on substitutes (that wouldn’t have more than a bachelor’s degree, if even that), how can both schools provide an equal education?

What about books? If one school's library has 5,000 books, while another school's library has only 500 books (and assuming both schools have the same number of students), how can both schools provide an equal education?

And then consider science labs. If one school's science lab is state-of-the-art and another's science lab is non-existent, how can both schools be equal?

 

[flaja]

Who says I vote GOP no matter what? That's ridiculous! Working to change the party doesn't mean you simply vote for every GOP Candidate! This is a strawman!

Did you not say, "So instead of trying it you give up and go for one of those parties with the massive .5% of the vote"?

What was I suppose to think? You make it sound like the 3rd party option would be like taking cyanide.