Stalin, Communism and the left wing

[Saigon]

During the past week or so, there has been a fascinating discussion on the thread 'Hitler, Fascism and the right wing'.

Fascinating largely because quite a few extremely right-wing posters argued against the classic dictionary definition of Fascism of being an extreme right-wing ideology, and instead attempt to define it as being socialist. This proved particularly challenging in economies such as Franco's Spain, Antonesu's Romania and Ustache Croatia, which embodied right-wing ideals of partnership with the church, capitalism and an emphasis on tradition and historical greatness.

I thought it might now be interesting to move on to the left wing.

There have been a LOT of left-wing dictatorships, but I think the Cold War regimes of USSR, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Mao's China, Ho Chi Minh's Viet Nam and FSLN Nicaragua make for interesting discussion. There is also modern day Belarus and North Korea to consider.

What is your opinion of these regimes, and what differences do you see between them?

Does anyone see anything at all positive in left-wing extremism?

 

[The Germans are coming]

Nope.

The way I see the world there are only to forms of government: Democracy and Tyranny.

if it is a right wing tyranny or left wing tyranny doesnt make a difference to me, it still is tyranny.

 

[Saigon]

Nope.

The way I see the world there are only to forms of government: Democracy and Tyranny.

if it is a right wing tyranny or left wing tyranny doesnt make a difference to me, it still is tyranny.

It is, but whether you would live longer or be better off depnds very much on the nature of the tyranny.

Someone from a minority race would always be better off in a left-wing tyranny than right-wing; someone from the upper classes generally better off in a right-wing system that favoured the existing aristocracy. A Christian would be safer in a Fascist environment; an academic safe in neither.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Stalin was a dictator he used what ever you want to call it to gain power and control.

 

[NYcarbineer]

One day liberals are being accused of supporting totalitarianism, the next they're being accused of supporting democracy,
which the conservatives decry as 'mob rule'.

 

[Kondor3]

And then, in our present age, we have...

China, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed to the other and far side of the spectrum, and continues to pretend and keep up the pretense that it is still left-wing -ish...

Russia, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as the inheritors and mourners of a defunct ultra-right-wing government that had formerly gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization and which had formerly morphed into an ultra-right-wing one before it died an ignoble death...

Vietnam, an odd mixture of left and right which could not properly be called centrist, having gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which has invaded neighbors and instituted free market reforms like the right and center might, and which has retained an authoritative single party system that pays lip-service to leftist issues...

North Korea, an ultra right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed into an ultra right-wing fascist state which starves and oppresses its own citizens and which holds them in thrall, and which has closed in upon itself like a spastic sphincter...

As well as a modest list of failed former ultra-left-wing states (Belarus, various -stans to the south of Russia proper, Mongolia, etc.) still struggling to define themselves...

Not exactly an admirable track record...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Nope.

The way I see the world there are only to forms of government: Democracy and Tyranny.

if it is a right wing tyranny or left wing tyranny doesnt make a difference to me, it still is tyranny.

Well the US isn't democracy, so that makes it what?

 

[Kondor3]

Nope.

The way I see the world there are only to forms of government: Democracy and Tyranny.

if it is a right wing tyranny or left wing tyranny doesnt make a difference to me, it still is tyranny.

Well the US isn't democracy, so that makes it what?

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

So.... this is a polite way of saying democracy is almost dead or totally dead?

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

Well hey, I think we ought have some of the citizens who live these communist worker's paradises to just chime right in here and give us their own opinions. The lines are open...........................................................................................................................................................................................Errr, one of you two billion folks just chime right in here...........................................................................................................................................................................................Oh come on! Somebody express their honest sentiments............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

[Kondor3]

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

So.... this is a polite way of saying democracy is almost dead or totally dead?

Nahhhhh... I don't think so.

The People are still able to effect a variety of course-corrections through the popular vote on the national and regional and local levels, but such change is still oftentimes not enough to offset the mischief done by the worst of the corporate and populist types.

The mechanisms exist to remedy this. I think we'll sort it out eventually.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And then, in our present age, we have...

China, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed to the other and far side of the spectrum, and continues to pretend and keep up the pretense that it is still left-wing -ish...

Russia, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as the inheritors and mourners of a defunct ultra-right-wing government that had formerly gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization and which had formerly morphed into an ultra-right-wing one before it died an ignoble death...

Vietnam, an odd mixture of left and right which could not properly be called centrist, having gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which has invaded neighbors and instituted free market reforms like the right and center might, and which has retained an authoritative single party system that pays lip-service to leftist issues...

Korea, an ultra right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed into an ultra right-wing fascist state which starves and oppresses its own citizens and which holds them in thrall, and which has closed in upon itself like a spastic sphincter...

As well as a modest list of failed former ultra-left-wing states (Belarus, various -stans to the south of Russia proper, Mongolia, etc.) still struggling to define themselves...

Not exactly an admirable track record...

When a Government has to much control and a defenseless and unarmed people it will become a dictatorship in any form.

 

[Saigon]

And then, in our present age, we have...

China, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed to the other and far side of the spectrum, and continues to pretend and keep up the pretense that it is still left-wing -ish...

Russia, an ultra-right-wing government that gained power as the inheritors and mourners of a defunct ultra-right-wing government that had formerly gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization and which had formerly morphed into an ultra-right-wing one before it died an ignoble death...

Vietnam, an odd mixture of left and right which could not properly be called centrist, having gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which has invaded neighbors and instituted free market reforms like the right and center might, and which has retained an authoritative single party system that pays lip-service to leftist issues...

North Korea, an ultra right-wing government that gained power as an ultra-left-wing organization, which morphed into an ultra right-wing fascist state which starves and oppresses its own citizens and which holds them in thrall, and which has closed in upon itself like a spastic sphincter...

As well as a modest list of failed former ultra-left-wing states (Belarus, various -stans to the south of Russia proper, Mongolia, etc.) still struggling to define themselves...

Not exactly an admirable track record...

Indeed....it gets more and more complex every day, really. The phenomena of communist states succeeding as capitalists is quite a new one, really. We may need new terms for what China and Viet Nam have become.

Belarus I would still call Communist, although there are stores and people use money...but it certainly felt communist to me. Not an easy country to hang out in.

 

[Saigon]

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

So.... this is a polite way of saying democracy is almost dead or totally dead?

I think democracy is doing very well....a lot of countries in Africa are experiencing real democracy for the first time. It's great to see Indonesia, Ghana, Botswana, Tanzania...and maybe even Burma and Malaysia making steps forward. There is hope!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Hitler supported limited government and individual liberty?

Really?

 

[Truman123]

 

[CrusaderFrank]

View attachment 34486

^ limited government and individual liberty?

really?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

So.... this is a polite way of saying democracy is almost dead or totally dead?

Nahhhhh... I don't think so.

The People are still able to effect a variety of course-corrections through the popular vote on the national and regional and local levels, but such change is still oftentimes not enough to offset the mischief done by the worst of the corporate and populist types.

The mechanisms exist to remedy this. I think we'll sort it out eventually.

So were the Communists in the USSR. They voted, it didn't make much difference, just as it doesn't make much difference in the USA>

 

[frigidweirdo]

View attachment 34486

Bloody socialists and their equality eh?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The US is a democratic representative Republic which - at present - is strongly influenced by both its business and populist factions.

So.... this is a polite way of saying democracy is almost dead or totally dead?

I think democracy is doing very well....a lot of countries in Africa are experiencing real democracy for the first time. It's great to see Indonesia, Ghana, Botswana, Tanzania...and maybe even Burma and Malaysia making steps forward. There is hope!

I meant democracy in the USA.

But democracy needs to be built on sound foundations, if not, it goes bad.