Socialist medicine: Little British girl denied surgery due to 'budget cuts'

[kiwiman127]

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA - Medical News Today

And people claim the US has the best healthcare in the world and that's why we pay double the cost of the rest of the world.
What say ye OP?

 

[Jarhead]

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA - Medical News Today

And people claim the US has the best healthcare in the world and that's why we pay double the cost of the rest of the world.
What say ye OP?

Eliminate unions for the nursing staffs.

Bet you see a dramatic decrease in "in hospital accidental deaths"

 

[kiwiman127]

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA - Medical News Today

And people claim the US has the best healthcare in the world and that's why we pay double the cost of the rest of the world.
What say ye OP?

Eliminate unions for the nursing staffs.

Bet you see a dramatic decrease in "in hospital accidental deaths"

It's the unions fault!

 

[NYcarbineer]

Pure spin and you know it.

But I agree...."despicable terd" was not an overly intelligent response.

What is spin? Specifically.

Let's put it this way. How would this person get this operation under an ideal conservative model of a healthcare system?

And how would it be paid for?

what you are asking me to do is to argue our beliefs...something we do all day long on here and nothing ever changes.

I am personally sick and tired of both sides spinning the INTENTIONS of the other side. Yes, you believe the result will be what you stated. And maybe it would be.

We believe the result will be different and by no means "HOPE" for the result you described.

The OP accuses 'socialist medicine' of denying this girl this operation. I am contesting that assertion.

 

[Jarhead]

When? When conservatives get into power and make massive cuts in the government funding of healthcare?

Of course. Then, someone who would have had the government pay for the operation would no longer be covered by the government,

because of the cuts.

putting aside the "us against you guys" attitude....

You are correct. As the ACA is set up, once it is in full swing it would be irresponsible to try to defund it or repeal it...or even cut the budget for it.

That is why many on the right wanted it repealed or defunded before it started.

Now, I know...we can argue "why defund it before it started"....we see it from two different positions and that will never change.

But as silly and irresponsible it seemed for those on the right to continually try to stop it dead in its tracks, there was rhyme and reason to it as it pertains to our ideology and concern about the law itself.

And how does this costly operation get paid for under the conservative model, whatever that is?

Certainly the government wouldn't pay for it, would it?

You say "the government"...I say "the taxpayer".....

But anyway.....

Putting aside the rhetoric, the ER with all of its reputation, proved to be sufficient for immediate care for those without insurance. We, the taxpayer, understood the importance of it, and rarely complained about it.

For long term and surgical care.....

Here in my home town, we have a diversity of income levels. My sons HS football team had players form the very poor to the uber wealthy. Folks live in apartments above deli's and mansions along the water.

When a less fortunate individual is in need...be it medical or otherwise.....we have fundraisers.

50,000 people, and yes, we have major fundraisers. Usually nothing more than make a donation......but we always help the person out.

Even President Obama agrees....recall the Joplin tornado...

he said (paraphrased)

'americans all got together and donated their time and their money to get this town up and running again. From all states, all walks of life...the young, the old, the businesses. All made it happen'

He is correct NYCarbineer.....Americans do not let other Americans suffer.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Europe?

 

[Jarhead]

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA - Medical News Today

And people claim the US has the best healthcare in the world and that's why we pay double the cost of the rest of the world.
What say ye OP?

Eliminate unions for the nursing staffs.

Bet you see a dramatic decrease in "in hospital accidental deaths"

It's the unions fault!

Yep.

You do not need to strive to be the best you can when a union protects you as long as you do the bear minimum.

I, personally, want to believe the nurse caring for me has a desire to be the best he or she can be.

 

[Jarhead]

What is spin? Specifically.

Let's put it this way. How would this person get this operation under an ideal conservative model of a healthcare system?

And how would it be paid for?

what you are asking me to do is to argue our beliefs...something we do all day long on here and nothing ever changes.

I am personally sick and tired of both sides spinning the INTENTIONS of the other side. Yes, you believe the result will be what you stated. And maybe it would be.

We believe the result will be different and by no means "HOPE" for the result you described.

The OP accuses 'socialist medicine' of denying this girl this operation. I am contesting that assertion.

He is accusing the ramifications of socialist medicine. During difficult financial times, budget cuts WILL affect the availability of care.

 

[NYcarbineer]

putting aside the "us against you guys" attitude....

You are correct. As the ACA is set up, once it is in full swing it would be irresponsible to try to defund it or repeal it...or even cut the budget for it.

That is why many on the right wanted it repealed or defunded before it started.

Now, I know...we can argue "why defund it before it started"....we see it from two different positions and that will never change.

But as silly and irresponsible it seemed for those on the right to continually try to stop it dead in its tracks, there was rhyme and reason to it as it pertains to our ideology and concern about the law itself.

And how does this costly operation get paid for under the conservative model, whatever that is?

Certainly the government wouldn't pay for it, would it?

You say "the government"...I say "the taxpayer".....

But anyway.....

Putting aside the rhetoric, the ER with all of its reputation, proved to be sufficient for immediate care for those without insurance. We, the taxpayer, understood the importance of it, and rarely complained about it.

For long term and surgical care.....

Here in my home town, we have a diversity of income levels. My sons HS football team had players form the very poor to the uber wealthy. Folks live in apartments above deli's and mansions along the water.

When a less fortunate individual is in need...be it medical or otherwise.....we have fundraisers.

50,000 people, and yes, we have major fundraisers. Usually nothing more than make a donation......but we always help the person out.

Even President Obama agrees....recall the Joplin tornado...

he said (paraphrased)

'americans all got together and donated their time and their money to get this town up and running again. From all states, all walks of life...the young, the old, the businesses. All made it happen'

He is correct NYCarbineer.....Americans do not let other Americans suffer.

So my assessment was exactly correct. The conservative model is to take away the government funding of healthcare, and in its place, the needy would fend for themselves, or try to get charity, or go without.

 

[Jarhead]

Europe?

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

Anyway, nice back and forth NYCarbineer. I appreciate the respect.

 

[Theowl32]

Lawyers

John Edwards

Sky rocketing costs

National Lawyers Guild

Opposition to tort reform

There are your hints. You connect the dots. Liberals are hypocrites. They stand for nothing. Continues to be true.

 

[Jarhead]

And how does this costly operation get paid for under the conservative model, whatever that is?

Certainly the government wouldn't pay for it, would it?

You say "the government"...I say "the taxpayer".....

But anyway.....

Putting aside the rhetoric, the ER with all of its reputation, proved to be sufficient for immediate care for those without insurance. We, the taxpayer, understood the importance of it, and rarely complained about it.

For long term and surgical care.....

Here in my home town, we have a diversity of income levels. My sons HS football team had players form the very poor to the uber wealthy. Folks live in apartments above deli's and mansions along the water.

When a less fortunate individual is in need...be it medical or otherwise.....we have fundraisers.

50,000 people, and yes, we have major fundraisers. Usually nothing more than make a donation......but we always help the person out.

Even President Obama agrees....recall the Joplin tornado...

he said (paraphrased)

'americans all got together and donated their time and their money to get this town up and running again. From all states, all walks of life...the young, the old, the businesses. All made it happen'

He is correct NYCarbineer.....Americans do not let other Americans suffer.

So my assessment was exactly correct. The conservative model is to take away the government funding of healthcare, and in its place, the needy would fend for themselves, or try to get charity, or go without.

almost....but with one correction......

The conservative model is to take away the government funding of healthcare, and in its place, the financially stable will assist all those that need, for Americans will not let other Americans suffer.

Heck, Americans will not let anyone suffer. We, individual Americans, gave more money to Haiti than the rest of the world combined. And in the rest of the world, you can include the US government.

Yep....without the government, we beat out the rest of the world combined.

 

[kiwiman127]

Eliminate unions for the nursing staffs.

Bet you see a dramatic decrease in "in hospital accidental deaths"

It's the unions fault!

Yep.

You do not need to strive to be the best you can when a union protects you as long as you do the bear minimum.

I, personally, want to believe the nurse caring for me has a desire to be the best he or she can be.

It's pretty common knowledge that there's a nursing shortage.
My sister is a nurse and yep, she's union. But she's pretty far right and resents unions. Her major complaint is that the hospital is understaffed and there is not enough coverage on her shifts. Why, the hospital doesn't have enough nurses on staff.
Now think about that.
Congress has as there has been legislation to fix this disaster.
S.739 - National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act
S.739 - 113th Congress (2013-2014): National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

 

[Jarhead]

It's the unions fault!

Yep.

You do not need to strive to be the best you can when a union protects you as long as you do the bear minimum.

I, personally, want to believe the nurse caring for me has a desire to be the best he or she can be.

It's pretty common knowledge that there's a nursing shortage.
My sister is a nurse and yep, she's union. But she's pretty far right and resents unions. Her major complaint is that the hospital is understaffed and there is not enough coverage on her shifts. Why, the hospital doesn't have enough nurses on staff.
Now think about that.
Congress has as there has been legislation to fix this disaster.
S.739 - National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act
S.739 - 113th Congress (2013-2014): National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

I understand about the nursing shortage....but that is due to the salary structure. People like your sister see how those "doing the bare minimum" get the same pay and the same raises she does. And as for promotions, she watches those that use every sick day, personal day, floating holiday and bereavement day they can get away with, wind up with the promotion (and pay increase) due to their tenure.

Offer true incentives for a long term REWARDING career, and people will strive to go into nursing.

 

[kiwiman127]

Lawyers

John Edwards

Sky rocketing costs

National Lawyers Guild

Opposition to tort reform

There are your hints. You connect the dots. Liberals are hypocrites. They stand for nothing. Continues to be true.

Yes, tort reform is needed, but there are other major reasons why the US has the most expensive healthcare in the world. One is that all countries (excluding the US and Turkey) negotiate healthcare costs with providers, technology manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies. Plus the US has for profit healthcare, the rest of the world doesn't.
But keep on blaming attorneys.

 

[kiwiman127]

Yep.

You do not need to strive to be the best you can when a union protects you as long as you do the bear minimum.

I, personally, want to believe the nurse caring for me has a desire to be the best he or she can be.

It's pretty common knowledge that there's a nursing shortage.
My sister is a nurse and yep, she's union. But she's pretty far right and resents unions. Her major complaint is that the hospital is understaffed and there is not enough coverage on her shifts. Why, the hospital doesn't have enough nurses on staff.
Now think about that.
Congress has as there has been legislation to fix this disaster.
S.739 - National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act
S.739 - 113th Congress (2013-2014): National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

I understand about the nursing shortage....but that is due to the salary structure. People like your sister see how those "doing the bare minimum" get the same pay and the same raises she does. And as for promotions, she watches those that use every sick day, personal day, floating holiday and bereavement day they can get away with, wind up with the promotion (and pay increase) due to their tenure.

Offer true incentives for a long term REWARDING career, and people will strive to go into nursing.

All those perks you speak of should lead to more folks getting into nursing,,no?

 

[Jarhead]

Lawyers

John Edwards

Sky rocketing costs

National Lawyers Guild

Opposition to tort reform

There are your hints. You connect the dots. Liberals are hypocrites. They stand for nothing. Continues to be true.

Yes, tort reform is needed, but there are other major reasons why the US has the most expensive healthcare in the world. One is that all countries (excluding the US and Turkey) negotiate healthcare costs with providers, technology manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies. Plus the US has for profit healthcare, the rest of the world doesn't.
But keep on blaming attorneys.

Where would you draw the line as it pertains to "for profit healthcare"...

Should doctors not make a profit? Afte rall, they are healthcare providers.

Personal nursing agencies?

DME companies?

Drug companies? (should they simply be reimbursed for the cost of R and D, but not be allowed to profit on the curing of diseases?)

Do you see the slippery slope? It is a major part of our economy.

 

[Jarhead]

It's pretty common knowledge that there's a nursing shortage.
My sister is a nurse and yep, she's union. But she's pretty far right and resents unions. Her major complaint is that the hospital is understaffed and there is not enough coverage on her shifts. Why, the hospital doesn't have enough nurses on staff.
Now think about that.
Congress has as there has been legislation to fix this disaster.
S.739 - National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act
S.739 - 113th Congress (2013-2014): National Nursing Shortage Reform and Patient Advocacy Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

I understand about the nursing shortage....but that is due to the salary structure. People like your sister see how those "doing the bare minimum" get the same pay and the same raises she does. And as for promotions, she watches those that use every sick day, personal day, floating holiday and bereavement day they can get away with, wind up with the promotion (and pay increase) due to their tenure.

Offer true incentives for a long term REWARDING career, and people will strive to go into nursing.

All those perks you speak of should lead to more folks getting into nursing,,no?

Sadly, nursing is not a rewarding career. It is a noble career and I commend your sister. But rewarding? I know a woman who has been a hospital nurse for over 25 years. Higher education, and dedication to her career. She is still making less than 100K and her "promotions" have been limited due to the higher weighted "longer tenure" group ahead of her.

It is weighted higher because of the "comfort" of a union so they stick with it for 40 years. And after that period of time, they know how to game the game...maximize their income at the bear minimum of hours worked..

But that is not the type of career todays generation wants. If you are going to go to 4 years of school and continuing education commitments, you want to know that a good work ethic and a dedication to the cause will be recognized and rewarded.

So yes....offer an ADVANCING career as opposed to a steady career, and people will trend to it.

 

[kiwiman127]

Lawyers

John Edwards

Sky rocketing costs

National Lawyers Guild

Opposition to tort reform

There are your hints. You connect the dots. Liberals are hypocrites. They stand for nothing. Continues to be true.

Yes, tort reform is needed, but there are other major reasons why the US has the most expensive healthcare in the world. One is that all countries (excluding the US and Turkey) negotiate healthcare costs with providers, technology manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies. Plus the US has for profit healthcare, the rest of the world doesn't.
But keep on blaming attorneys.

Where would you draw the line as it pertains to "for profit healthcare"...

Should doctors not make a profit? Afte rall, they are healthcare providers.

Personal nursing agencies?

DME companies?

Drug companies? (should they simply be reimbursed for the cost of R and D, but not be allowed to profit on the curing of diseases?)

Do you see the slippery slope? It is a major part of our economy.

I have no problem with profits. I am simply pointing that profits lead to a higher cost for healthcare versus socialized medicine. True or not true?
I do have a problem with some of the profit schemes the healthcare industry has incorporated. Take defensive medicine. Incorporating defensive medicine to avoid malpractice law suits was a good idea. But now defensive medicine is a profit booster to the healthcare industry. According to Forbes, it's annual cost is $650 billion annually' I was in the hospital a couple years ago and they ran so many tests on me it was unbelievable. There were quite a few tests that were run on me that didn't apply I ad to tell them to stop it. I wanted each test explained to me why it was required for what I was being hospitalized..
Here's an interesting article: Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
I wonder if the healthcare industry would actually fight to keep defensive medicine as the norm considering what a profit booster it is.

 

[Jarhead]

Yes, tort reform is needed, but there are other major reasons why the US has the most expensive healthcare in the world. One is that all countries (excluding the US and Turkey) negotiate healthcare costs with providers, technology manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies. Plus the US has for profit healthcare, the rest of the world doesn't.
But keep on blaming attorneys.

Where would you draw the line as it pertains to "for profit healthcare"...

Should doctors not make a profit? Afte rall, they are healthcare providers.

Personal nursing agencies?

DME companies?

Drug companies? (should they simply be reimbursed for the cost of R and D, but not be allowed to profit on the curing of diseases?)

Do you see the slippery slope? It is a major part of our economy.

I have no problem with profits. I am simply pointing that profits lead to a higher cost for healthcare versus socialized medicine. True or not true?
I do have a problem with some of the profit schemes the healthcare industry has incorporated. Take defensive medicine. Incorporating defensive medicine to avoid malpractice law suits was a good idea. But now defensive medicine is a profit booster to the healthcare industry. According to Forbes, it's annual cost is $650 billion annually' I was in the hospital a couple years ago and they ran so many tests on me it was unbelievable. There were quite a few tests that were run on me that didn't apply I ad to tell them to stop it. I wanted each test explained to me why it was required for what I was being hospitalized..
Here's an interesting article: Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease
Defensive Medicine: A Cure Worse Than The Disease - Forbes
I wonder if the healthcare industry would actually fight to keep defensive medicine as the norm considering what a profit booster it is.

Of course profits increase healthcare costs. But profits also increases employment. Good with bad thing.

Whereas defensive medicine was necessary, I believe it is something we need to eliminate as it, too increases healthcare costs. And the best way to eliminate it is to eliminate the frivolous mal practice suits...and redefine what malpractice is.

Having a scar that is ugly is not malpractice in my eyes. You chose the surgeon and if you chose one that is sloppier than another, that was your own fault for not doing your research.

Anyway, I think you see where I am coming from.

At this point? Single payer will likely be the best option. I fear we are way to deep into the ACA to go back to square one.