Social Security Discussion

[RKMBrown]

When you say there are $50 trillion in liabilities, one must similarly capitalize future tax revenues to normalize the balance sheet.

This argument misunderstands the nature of a Ponzi Scheme. A Ponzi Scheme is a very precise thing. A Ponzi Scheme is characterized by high promised returns backed by nothing that invariably collapses because of the law of large numbers. Every inability to pay, bankruptcy or default is not a Ponzi Scheme. Low returns backed by liabilities that are growing faster than the economy is not a Ponzi Scheme.

Promised SS payments are unsecured liabilities of the government, no different than most government bonds. Government liabilities are a claim on future economic activity. Ponzi Schemes are not. To say that SS is a Ponzi Scheme is tantamount to saying that every government bond not secured by physical assets is also a Ponzi Scheme. To take it to the logical conclusion, one would also say that every unsecured corporate bond or unsecured consumer credit instrument is also a Ponzi Scheme. Every government default, or every corporate or personal default for that matter, is not the result of a Ponzi Scheme.

Also, unlike Ponzi Schemes, government programs can be changed by legislative fiat. We can change how SS is structured tomorrow if we wanted. In a Ponzi Scheme, if the promised returns are lowered, then the scheme collapses because it won't be able to generate enough funds to pay off the prior claimants. That is not the case in SS. SS will not collapse if future benefits are reduced.

It's a bond? Cool where can I sell my bonds? Telling me that my SS "bond" (snicker) is tied to my children's income (sigh) makes it a ponzi. It is a ponzi because it only works if people let the government steal their income by force. The next time they save SS my children will probably have to pay 25% of their income for it. That's up from 2% when it started. An order of magnitude more than when it started. Not only is this a ponzi, it is a ponzi that has been going on for many decades, by force.

Hate to tell you this sport, but every financial asset you have is by your definition a Ponzi scheme. They all depend on someone to pay you in the future. And that someone will have to pay you out of their income, whether its the federal government, a state or local government, a corporation or other business entity, or an individual. What financial (as opposed to tangible) assets do you have that are NOT contingent on the future economy in this way?

Ponzi does not mean what you think it means. Merely depending on someone to pay you in the future what they say they will does not make an investment a ponzi.

Ponzi, schemes are illegal. The only exception being this federally mandated ponzi scheme that uses forced tax payer slave labor to keep it going.

 

[RKMBrown]

It's a bond? Cool where can I sell my bonds? Telling me that my SS "bond" (snicker) is tied to my children's income (sigh) makes it a ponzi. It is a ponzi because it only works if people let the government steal their income by force. The next time they save SS my children will probably have to pay 25% of their income for it. That's up from 2% when it started. An order of magnitude more than when it started. Not only is this a ponzi, it is a ponzi that has been going on for many decades, by force.

Hate to tell you this sport, but every financial asset you have is by your definition a Ponzi scheme. They all depend on someone to pay you in the future. And that someone will have to pay you out of their income, whether its the federal government, a state or local government, a corporation or other business entity, or an individual. What financial (as opposed to tangible) assets do you have that are NOT contingent on the future economy in this way?

Exactly.

All financial assets are claims on future economic activity. The government is just another entity, albeit a big and largely inefficient one.

Wrong, all financial assets that are claims on future economic activity are not ponzi schemes. You guys relatives? Just curious if this problem you guys are having is a genetic trait.

 

[expat_panama]

...All financial assets are claims on future economic activity...

Wrong, all financial assets that are claims on future economic activity are not ponzi schemes...

--because a Ponzi scheme pays past investor's returns with present investor's deposits. Just like Social Security.

More importantly is how virtually all financial assets are claims on existing goods with present value. Think of a car loan or a mortgage --all are claims against existing goods and the claims released only after all payments are made. Ponzie schemes (including social security) involve no tangible assets, only beliefs and promises.

 

[Toro]

Hate to tell you this sport, but every financial asset you have is by your definition a Ponzi scheme. They all depend on someone to pay you in the future. And that someone will have to pay you out of their income, whether its the federal government, a state or local government, a corporation or other business entity, or an individual. What financial (as opposed to tangible) assets do you have that are NOT contingent on the future economy in this way?

Exactly.

All financial assets are claims on future economic activity. The government is just another entity, albeit a big and largely inefficient one.

Wrong, all financial assets that are claims on future economic activity are not ponzi schemes. You guys relatives? Just curious if this problem you guys are having is a genetic trait.

And since Ponzi Schemes are frauds which ensure the final payee does not get paid while SS is not, your point is irrelevant.

 

[Toro]

Ponzie schemes (including social security) involve no tangible assets, only beliefs and promises.

So does all unsecured debt.

 

[expat_panama]

Ponzie schemes (including social security) involve no tangible assets, only beliefs and promises.

So does all unsecured debt.

--like credit cards.

The thing is that unsecured loans are a risky and fragile type of loan which is why the American economy can allow only $606B in credit card loans out of the total $13,548B private debt. Consequently those unsecured loans are only about 4% of total loans and banks offer that kind of credit only with great care charging very high interest rates.

Contrast that to social security where anual outlays have soared to $818B coming out of only $2,450B in total revenue -over a third. At least banks can sue defaulting credit card holders and attach paychecks, but even if the American people could sue the gov't (which they can't), the money's not there.

 

[Toro]

Unsecured bonds issued by Microsoft aren't particularly risky. YTM on the June 1 14 bullets are yielding 10 bps.

 

[Toro]

And of course the money is there. The issue is whether the will is there.

CBO estimates that in a worse case scenario, SS will pay out 75% of promised benefits in 2035. That's not great but its a whole lot different than shrill hysteria about SS being equivalent to Madoff or a Ponzi Scheme.

 

[Rshermr]

And unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it. As W found. And it is in the hands of the public to make sure that ss is there in full. As politicians who do not want to fix the problem will find out. As they always have.

this is not a new problem. We have been there before. It is simply that people are living longer and that we are facing the results of the baby boom. Assuming that we want to be rational about it. And that we are not trying to use the opportunity to try to kill ss, as con tools always do.

 

[expat_panama]

...unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it...

Actually, ponzi schemes thrive on enthusiastic customer satisfaction that verges on the fanatical. The reverse in attitude doesn't come about until it's too late and even then there are blind diehards.

 

[editec]

Obviously, the social security trust fund is....ridiculous.

You should have stopped there.

It needs to ended. I would recommend a cash buy out of the future liabilities via check to the 401k of each asset holder for the assets collected that have not yet been paid out to the asset holder.

AT INTEREST based on the real rate of inflation over the past years that it was collected?

I started paying into that system when a silver dime actially cost ten cents.

Now that same silver dime that I gave to my government is worth about $3.00.

 

[Rshermr]

It's a bond? Cool where can I sell my bonds? Telling me that my SS "bond" (snicker) is tied to my children's income (sigh) makes it a ponzi. It is a ponzi because it only works if people let the government steal their income by force. The next time they save SS my children will probably have to pay 25% of their income for it. That's up from 2% when it started. An order of magnitude more than when it started. Not only is this a ponzi, it is a ponzi that has been going on for many decades, by force.

Hate to tell you this sport, but every financial asset you have is by your definition a Ponzi scheme. They all depend on someone to pay you in the future. And that someone will have to pay you out of their income, whether its the federal government, a state or local government, a corporation or other business entity, or an individual. What financial (as opposed to tangible) assets do you have that are NOT contingent on the future economy in this way?

Ponzi does not mean what you think it means. Merely depending on someone to pay you in the future what they say they will does not make an investment a ponzi.

Ponzi, schemes are illegal. The only exception being this federally mandated ponzi scheme that uses forced tax payer slave labor to keep it going.

As I thought, you would find no reason to learn anything. Because you are a waste of space. You are indeed why rational people think those pushing your agenda are wide eyed idiots. AND, they are correct, in your case.
You got a lesson for free. Sorry you refused to learn anything.

 

[Rshermr]

...unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it...

Actually, ponzi schemes thrive on enthusiastic customer satisfaction that verges on the fanatical. The reverse in attitude doesn't come about until it's too late and even then there are blind diehards.

Good. Maybe you can find a poll that suggests that any ponzi scheme has the popularity of ss. Dipshit.

 

[RKMBrown]

Obviously, the social security trust fund is....ridiculous.

You should have stopped there.

It needs to ended. I would recommend a cash buy out of the future liabilities via check to the 401k of each asset holder for the assets collected that have not yet been paid out to the asset holder.

AT INTEREST based on the real rate of inflation over the past years that it was collected?

I started paying into that system when a silver dime actially cost ten cents.

Now that same silver dime that I gave to my government is worth about $3.00.

Sorry your money was spent, they did not put it into an interest bearing account. Best we can do is pay you back. It's not your grandchildren's fault that your politicians screwed them and you over. But theft is theft and our government should pay you back what you put in minus what you have already been paid.

 

[RKMBrown]

Hate to tell you this sport, but every financial asset you have is by your definition a Ponzi scheme. They all depend on someone to pay you in the future. And that someone will have to pay you out of their income, whether its the federal government, a state or local government, a corporation or other business entity, or an individual. What financial (as opposed to tangible) assets do you have that are NOT contingent on the future economy in this way?

Ponzi does not mean what you think it means. Merely depending on someone to pay you in the future what they say they will does not make an investment a ponzi.

Ponzi, schemes are illegal. The only exception being this federally mandated ponzi scheme that uses forced tax payer slave labor to keep it going.

As I thought, you would find no reason to learn anything. Because you are a waste of space. You are indeed why rational people think those pushing your agenda are wide eyed idiots. AND, they are correct, in your case.
You got a lesson for free. Sorry you refused to learn anything.

What were you trying to teach me? That all failed investments are ponzi's? Do you hear voices as well or is this something the democrats have taught you?

 

[RKMBrown]

...unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it...

Actually, ponzi schemes thrive on enthusiastic customer satisfaction that verges on the fanatical. The reverse in attitude doesn't come about until it's too late and even then there are blind diehards.

Good. Maybe you can find a poll that suggests that any ponzi scheme has the popularity of ss. Dipshit.

ROFL it's popular it can't be a PONZI lol

 

[Rshermr]

Actually, ponzi schemes thrive on enthusiastic customer satisfaction that verges on the fanatical. The reverse in attitude doesn't come about until it's too late and even then there are blind diehards.

Good. Maybe you can find a poll that suggests that any ponzi scheme has the popularity of ss. Dipshit.

ROFL it's popular it can't be a PONZI lol

Me poor, poor ignorant con tool. It must be really difficult being so, so ignorant and try to make sense.
Can you name a time when ss has ever not paid??? Of course not. You are shooting for a future date when you say it will not. Come back then, and we will see if you are wrong again. And, me boy, you will be, of course, wrong again.
Watch out for that laughing thing. You find idiots commonly sitting in corners and laughing away. Not a criticism. I am simply worried about your lack of cognitive ability.

 

[Rshermr]

Ponzi does not mean what you think it means. Merely depending on someone to pay you in the future what they say they will does not make an investment a ponzi.

Ponzi, schemes are illegal. The only exception being this federally mandated ponzi scheme that uses forced tax payer slave labor to keep it going.

As I thought, you would find no reason to learn anything. Because you are a waste of space. You are indeed why rational people think those pushing your agenda are wide eyed idiots. AND, they are correct, in your case.
You got a lesson for free. Sorry you refused to learn anything.

What were you trying to teach me? That all failed investments are ponzi's? Do you hear voices as well or is this something the democrats have taught you?

I was not trying to teach you anything, me boy. I know better. You must have cognitive ability to be taught. You do not. Others provided a lesson, you failed to understand it. No surprise at all.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it. As W found. And it is in the hands of the public to make sure that ss is there in full. As politicians who do not want to fix the problem will find out. As they always have.

this is not a new problem. We have been there before. It is simply that people are living longer and that we are facing the results of the baby boom. Assuming that we want to be rational about it. And that we are not trying to use the opportunity to try to kill ss, as con tools always do.

And unlike ponzi schemes, the public likes it.

Only those who are bad at math and those who collect without contributing.

My Social Security taxes would give me triple the benefits and hundreds of thousands to leave to my family, if they had been invested in the market.

 

[RKMBrown]

Good. Maybe you can find a poll that suggests that any ponzi scheme has the popularity of ss. Dipshit.

ROFL it's popular it can't be a PONZI lol

Me poor, poor ignorant con tool. It must be really difficult being so, so ignorant and try to make sense.
Can you name a time when ss has ever not paid??? Of course not. You are shooting for a future date when you say it will not. Come back then, and we will see if you are wrong again. And, me boy, you will be, of course, wrong again.
Watch out for that laughing thing. You find idiots commonly sitting in corners and laughing away. Not a criticism. I am simply worried about your lack of cognitive ability.

Can you even wipe your ass without help?

>> Can you name a time when ss has ever not paid???

It's not paid today if you never put into it and don't have a spouse who did. Additionally, it was never paid prior to January of 1937 when they first started collecting.

You may think it's funny that your children had to pay twice as much as you did for the same benefits, and your grandchildren twice as much again as your children. Is that what gets you so excited over this ponzi? That each successive generation has had to pay twice as much? How many times will it have to double in cost before jerks like you will let your children and grandchildren off the hook for paying for the dumbest largest ponzi ever devised by mankind?