So Pro Lifers , are you willing to pay for this baby??

[HenryBHough]

Pity MommaObama wasn't as pro-abortion as her git.

That's just wrong.

Yeah, she was wrong about that.

But, take heart, under progressive rules she could still decide to have a very, very late term abortion!

No crime in that, eh?

 

[dblack]

I didn't say, "no government programs". I said that programs and polices that help prevent unwanted pregnancies are fine as long as they aren't government programs. In and of itself, a safety net is not much of a threat to liberty. The problem is that such programs tend to get used as a means of controlling people - as you're suggesting.

You most certainly did say "no government programs"

If you re-read, you'll find you are in error.

What controls people is the fear that they won't have enough to eat, wont get care or go bankrupt if they get seriously injured or sick, and having rats in an apartment in the slum.

Exactly. And if you control access to those things, then you control people pretty reliably.

And who is controlling access? It's the corporations and the complicit government that we now have. I want government that ensures access and controls the providers of goods and services to ensure the those who need them get them. You seem to be hung up on this control thing.

Our Republican led government is threatening to yank the benefits "ensured" by a Democrat led government from up to 22 million Americans. And they want to give even more benes to the insurance industry.

It's astonishing to me that you can see the obvious fact that government is complicit with special interests, most notably powerful corporations, yet you think government should have even more power to force its will on all of us.

Now I actually don't know what you're talking about. The Republican Gov. that you refer to is trying to force its will on us. The gov. that I want to would protect us from the will of the powerful and wealthy and greedy. I'm not so naïve as to not know that Democrats are not also in bed with special interests but it comes down to the degree to which that is the case. You seem to think that Dems and Republicans are essentially the same. Maybe that was true at one time but not today, not by a long shot.

But that's the thing. The government you want won't always be in power. Every now and then the assholes are going take the wheel. Do you really want your health care to be at risk every time they do?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

You most certainly did say "no government programs"

If you re-read, you'll find you are in error.

What controls people is the fear that they won't have enough to eat, wont get care or go bankrupt if they get seriously injured or sick, and having rats in an apartment in the slum.

Exactly. And if you control access to those things, then you control people pretty reliably.

And who is controlling access? It's the corporations and the complicit government that we now have. I want government that ensures access and controls the providers of goods and services to ensure the those who need them get them. You seem to be hung up on this control thing.

Our Republican led government is threatening to yank the benefits "ensured" by a Democrat led government from up to 22 million Americans. And they want to give even more benes to the insurance industry.

It's astonishing to me that you can see the obvious fact that government is complicit with special interests, most notably powerful corporations, yet you think government should have even more power to force its will on all of us.

Now I actually don't know what you're talking about. The Republican Gov. that you refer to is trying to force its will on us. The gov. that I want to would protect us from the will of the powerful and wealthy and greedy. I'm not so naïve as to not know that Democrats are not also in bed with special interests but it comes down to the degree to which that is the case. You seem to think that Dems and Republicans are essentially the same. Maybe that was true at one time but not today, not by a long shot.

But that's the thing. The government you want won't always be in power. Every now and then the assholes are going take the wheel. Do you really want your health care to be at risk every time they do?

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons, Once rights are granted and programs are established, it is very hard for a new political movement to take them back. Look at the heath care debacle currently being played out. How long has the right been trying to overturn Roe V Wade? And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

 

[dblack]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I would have the government control health care ( as long as it's not Trump Care) than the greedy robber barons .

I don't think that I've missed anything regarding your inconsistency .. You are in denial.

 

[dblack]

I don't think that I've missed anything regarding your inconsistency .. You are in denial.

How so? You seem to be hinting around that I'm pro-life or something. Do you just block any info that doesn't match your pre-conceived notions?

 

[dblack]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I don't think that I've missed anything regarding your inconsistency .. You are in denial.

How so? You seem to be hinting around that I'm pro-life or something. Do you just block any info that doesn't match your pre-conceived notions?

OK, You got me. I see that early on you said that you were pro choice. My apologies . You are very consistent . You consistently push your cruel and naïve Libertarian world view promoting social and economic Darwinism

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

Let me guess what your answer is....health savings accounts? Fine if your able to save anything. Many can't

 

[dblack]

I don't think that I've missed anything regarding your inconsistency .. You are in denial.

How so? You seem to be hinting around that I'm pro-life or something. Do you just block any info that doesn't match your pre-conceived notions?

OK, You got me. I see that early on you said that you were pro choice. My apologies . You are very consistent . You consistently push your cruel and naïve Libertarian world view promoting social and economic Darwinism

Heh... thank you. - but no, it's not Darwinism. Again, you're fixated on this notion that government tit is the only thing that can ever save you from utter desolation. What a timid and frightful way to live.

 

[dblack]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

Let me guess what your answer is....health savings accounts? Fine if your able to save anything. Many can't

In the nineties I lived in a small college town in the midwest, raising my sons. For several years, we we're pretty much broke and couldn't afford the insurance racket. A lot of other people in town were in the same boat. A young doctor from India - who was denied a license to practice medicine legally in the US, ran an underground health care service out of a van. I, and many of my friends, used his services. He was able to provide anti-biotics and basic treatments for many different health problems for pennies on the dollar. Eventually, he was busted and deported. But for a while there, people in need were getting help that they could afford. Fortunately, the government shut him down.

I've read similar accounts of underground health care networks forming, especially in urban, immigrant communities. People band together to take care of their needs despite the corporate/government establishment trying to keep us 'contained'. When people can get what they need they find a way.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I'll take my chances with the shifting political winds over the constant forces of the free market robber barons.

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And your are still not addressing your inconsistency regarding the rights of the unborn vs. what happens to it afterwards.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

Let me guess what your answer is....health savings accounts? Fine if your able to save anything. Many can't

In the nineties I lived in a small college town in the midwest, raising my sons. For several years, we we're pretty much broke and couldn't afford the insurance racket. A lot of other people in town were in the same boat. A young doctor from India - who was denied a license to practice medicine legally in the US, ran an underground health care service out of a van. I, and many of my friends, used his services. He was able to provide anti-biotics and basic treatments for many different health problems for pennies on the dollar. Eventually, he was busted and deported. But for a while there, people in need were getting help that they could afford. Fortunately, the government shut him down.

I've read similar accounts of underground health care networks forming, especially in urban, immigrant communities. People band together to take care of their needs despite the corporate/government establishment trying to keep us 'contained'. When people can get what they need they find a way.

Oh that's just great! Good for you!! Underground heath care networks. Did this guy working out of his van have admitting privileges at any hospital. You just luck that nothing serious happened to you or your kids.

In the 90, I had a serious and mysterious illness that almost killed me. My doctors and the staff of the rinky-dink hospital could not figure out what it was. They finally shipped me to Columbia Presbyterian in NY where I spent 2 weeks and ran up a tab of 100K or more. But they fixed me and I did not have to go broke. What would your van guy have done.?

 

[dblack]

With the free market you aren't forced to comply. You can ignore Aetna's demands, you can refuse to do business with them. You're free to find a different insurance company - or look for a new solution altogether. But with government, you lose that freedom. If government controls health care, when the Trumpsters take over, the Truimpsters control your health health care.

And what is that inconsistency, do you think? Maybe you've misread my posts again.

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

Let me guess what your answer is....health savings accounts? Fine if your able to save anything. Many can't

In the nineties I lived in a small college town in the midwest, raising my sons. For several years, we we're pretty much broke and couldn't afford the insurance racket. A lot of other people in town were in the same boat. A young doctor from India - who was denied a license to practice medicine legally in the US, ran an underground health care service out of a van. I, and many of my friends, used his services. He was able to provide anti-biotics and basic treatments for many different health problems for pennies on the dollar. Eventually, he was busted and deported. But for a while there, people in need were getting help that they could afford. Fortunately, the government shut him down.

I've read similar accounts of underground health care networks forming, especially in urban, immigrant communities. People band together to take care of their needs despite the corporate/government establishment trying to keep us 'contained'. When people can get what they need they find a way.

Oh that's just great! Good for you!! Underground heath care networks. Did this guy working out of his van have admitting privileges at any hospital. You just luck that nothing serious happened to you or your kids.

In the 90, I had a serious and mysterious illness that almost killed me. My doctors and the staff of the rinky-dink hospital could not figure out what it was. They finally shipped me to Columbia Presbyterian in NY where I spent 2 weeks and ran up a tab of 100K or more. But they fixed me and I did not have to go broke. What would your van guy have done.?

You're not really tracking the point here, are you? There's more than just one right way to live. We don't need government forcing us all to march in lock step to solve our problems. Freedom isn't as scary as you think.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Oh sure, simple.
Ignore the free market

Find another insurance co- when in many markets- thanks to Republican obstruction and uncertainty about the future of health care-there is no other company on the exchange

Find another solution? Really? What would that be? What alt-reality are you living in?

I'm living in the alt-reality where a bunch of idiots watched too many insurance company ads and convinced themselves that insurance is the only way to pay for health care. In point of fact, it's a spectacularly bad way. It's really only worthwhile for the extremes. But employers and government have herded us into their pens and we're all too complacent and lazy to do anything about it (other than whine for more government intervention).

Let me guess what your answer is....health savings accounts? Fine if your able to save anything. Many can't

In the nineties I lived in a small college town in the midwest, raising my sons. For several years, we we're pretty much broke and couldn't afford the insurance racket. A lot of other people in town were in the same boat. A young doctor from India - who was denied a license to practice medicine legally in the US, ran an underground health care service out of a van. I, and many of my friends, used his services. He was able to provide anti-biotics and basic treatments for many different health problems for pennies on the dollar. Eventually, he was busted and deported. But for a while there, people in need were getting help that they could afford. Fortunately, the government shut him down.

I've read similar accounts of underground health care networks forming, especially in urban, immigrant communities. People band together to take care of their needs despite the corporate/government establishment trying to keep us 'contained'. When people can get what they need they find a way.

Oh that's just great! Good for you!! Underground heath care networks. Did this guy working out of his van have admitting privileges at any hospital. You just luck that nothing serious happened to you or your kids.

In the 90, I had a serious and mysterious illness that almost killed me. My doctors and the staff of the rinky-dink hospital could not figure out what it was. They finally shipped me to Columbia Presbyterian in NY where I spent 2 weeks and ran up a tab of 100K or more. But they fixed me and I did not have to go broke. What would your van guy have done.?

You're not really tracking the point here, are you? There's more than just one right way to live. We don't need government forcing us all to march in lock step to solve our problems. Freedom isn't as scary as you think.

No one is telling you how to live. There may be more than one right way to live, but some just don't make any sense given the risks involved. Again, what would your van guy have done if confronted with my situation? What would YOU have done. ?

By the way, I feel quite free and do not march to anyone's music. I am free because I have the security and peace of mind that allows me to do what I wish., at all times

Everyone is entitles to their own definition of freedom, but no one is free is everyone else is a predator and there is no government to stop them

 

[dblack]

You're not really tracking the point here, are you? There's more than just one right way to live. We don't need government forcing us all to march in lock step to solve our problems. Freedom isn't as scary as you think.

No one is telling you how to live.

If you're telling someone how to do health care, you're telling them, in part, how to live.

There may be more than one right way to live, but some just don't make any sense given the risks involved.

Who are you to judge someone else's personal risk? If they don't want to waste money on insurance, who are you to tell them they must? And don't whine about EMTALA. I'll vote with you to repeal it, if that's your beef.

Again, what would your van guy have done if confronted with my situation? What would YOU have done?

How should I know? I don't know what disease you had or anything about your situation. But I'd have definitely done something. I wouldn't have just rolled over and died without a fight. What would YOU have done, if you hadn't had insurance? Would you have just quit?

By the way, I feel quite free and do not march to anyone's music. I am free because I have the security and peace of mind that allows me to do what I wish., at all times.

I'm sure you're fine with the way things are going. For the most part, government is forcing your will on other people. I'm just trying to get you to open your eyes to what's going on. Not everyone wants to live the way you do.

Everyone is entitled to their own definition of freedom but no one is free is everyone else is a predator and there is no government to stop them

I'm not arguing for the freedom of predators. I'm arguing for the freedom of ordinary people to finance their health care the way they see fit. Just because you like corporate insurance, doesn't mean everyone else wants to play the same game.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

If you're telling someone how to do health care, you're telling them, in part, how to live.

If you're telling someone that they can not have health care, if you oppose programs that would provide health care which you apparently do, you are telling them how to die.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Who are you to judge someone else's personal risk? If they don't want to waste money on insurance, who are you to tell them they must? And don't whine about EMTALA. I'll vote with you to repeal it, if that's your beef.

I do support the individual and employer mandate . But that is how all those who choose to have affordable insurance can do so, and how the rest of us don't get stuck with the bill for then uninsured. If someone does not want to buy insurance, I woiuld support a provision by which they can avoid penalties if they agree- if becoming ill or injured- to not go to the ER and seek charity care, and not file for bankruptcy and screw their creditors if slapped with a huge bill due to a catastrophic illness..

 

[Divine Wind]

Oh that makes a different, just anti abortion. I see. Why are you anti abortion then?

Im anti-abortion becayse I believe the choice to create a life or not is made at the time the parents engaged in the procreative act, not after the fact. I have no issue with contraception or abortion in cases where the woman had no choice in the act that impregnated her (rape especially). However, if she actively chose to engage in sex, she knew the potential consequences. Likewise, the father should be on the hook for at least half the expense of raising the child since he knew the consequences as well.

Now this variues from being pro-life as this is a protection of innocent life. Not all life is sacred. Innocent life and proper life are, but improper and immoral lives are not sacred.

I'm pro-abortion because it's the easiest, most legal means to reduce the number of Democrats.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

How should I know? I don't know what disease you had or anything about your situation. But I'd have definitely done something. I wouldn't have just rolled over and died without a fight. What would YOU have done, if you hadn't had insurance?

Obviously you have not thought much about it. Maybe you should. The fact is that I did have insurance because I was responsible enough to buy it. That was my choice. You sat that you would not have rolled over and died, but what choices did you have , really?

 

[dblack]

How should I know? I don't know what disease you had or anything about your situation. But I'd have definitely done something. I wouldn't have just rolled over and died without a fight. What would YOU have done, if you hadn't had insurance?

Obviously you have not thought much about it. Maybe you should. The fact is that I did have insurance because I was responsible enough to buy it. That was my choice. You sat that you would not have rolled over and died, but what choices did you have , really?

So you hadn't had insurance, you'd have just given up? You wouldn't have tried to arrange a loan? Setup a fundraiser? Tried to find an alternative (cheaper) cure? Nothing?

Also, let's be clear here, I'm not advocating making no preparations for one's health care. I'm just saying those preparations shouldn't be dictated by government. It's a personal decision.