Smithsonian: How to Talk with Evangelicals about Evolution

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They think that the very idea of "me" is supposed to be...what, chemistry? A slightly different ratio of carbon?

Insanity!

What else would it be? Do you think your brain is made up of lucky charms?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

2) don't care about in regards to their religious beliefs, because it doesn't affect them in the slightest?

Well there's where you are wrong. They get to reap the benefits of the science built on a foundation in part of evolutionary theory.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What else would it be? Do you think your brain is made up of lucky charms?

YOU apparently think exactly that, if you consider blind chance the only possible explanation.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

YOU apparently think exactly that, if you consider blind chance the only possible explanation.

Chance? Where do you get that? The physical laws of the universe aren't "chance". Selection isn't random, either.

And what do I think, exactly? I asked a question. And you dodged it like a sissy. Why even come to this section to comment, if you can't handle the material being discussed?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well there's where you are wrong. They get to reap the benefits of the science built on a foundation in part of evolutionary theory.

I already knew you were functionally illiterate, but sometimes you still amaze me with your complete inability to read and understand words.

Here's the full quote that you deliberately mangled so that you could pretend to "answer" something it didn't say, but that you preferred to what it ACTUALLY said:

Oh, so Smithsonian Magazine forced you to come to this message board and start a thread about how "brilliantly" you were going to "destroy" evangelical Christians by explaining something they 1) already know about, and 2) don't care about in regards to their religious beliefs, because it doesn't affect them in the slightest?

It is obvious to anyone who is not Fart Fun and who can therefore comprehend the English language that the "they" I was speaking of was Christians, not the people you slavishly worship as your heroes because you mistakenly think that adoring them will somehow convey their intelligence to you by some sort of fanboy osmosis.

Christians are already well aware of evolutionary theory, contrary to the apparent belief of your spiritual boyfriend, Abu. Christians also don't give a damn about evolutionary theory in regards to their religious beliefs, because evolution is irrelevant to Christianity, also contrary to the apparent belief of your boyfriend, Abu.

I find it heartwarming that you could find a soulmate of the same intellectual caliber as you on this message board, and I wish you and Abu many happy years of babbling mindlessly at each other and pinning clippings from Smithsonian to your walls together.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Chance? Where do you get that? The physical laws of the universe aren't "chance". Selection isn't random, either.

And what do I think, exactly? I asked a question. And you dodged it like a sissy. Why even come to this section to comment, if you can't handle the material being discussed?

I dodged exactly the same amount that you did, because I gave you the exact same answer you gave. The difference is, I laughed at yours, and you got your panties in a wad at mine.

 

[surada]

Unsurprisingly, you are incorrect, Oh Great-Scholar-Of-Things-You-Dismiss-As-Silly.

Isaiah chapter 7, verses 13-14:

(For context, in this chapter, two armies were marching on Jerusalem to try to conquer it. Obviously, the people of Jerusalem were terrified. God sent His prophet, Isaiah, to meet with Ahaz, the king of Judah, and tell him to be calm and to ask for a sign from God. Ahaz refuses, saying, "I will not test the Lord". Isaiah gets impatient with him, and this is his response.)

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.

Isaiah chapter 53, verses 1-8:

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,
no beauty that we should desire Him.
3He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.
Like one from whom men hide their faces,
He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
4Surely He took on our infirmities
and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God,
struck down and afflicted.
5But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
6We all like sheep have gone astray,
each one has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid upon Him
the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away,
and who can recount His descendants?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

The book of Isaiah was written over 700 years before the birth of Jesus.

Micah 5:2:

2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me
One to be ruler over Israel - One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

Micah was written 800 years before the birth of Jesus.

Psalm 22:

(I have selected the sections relevant to this discussion.)

1My God, my God,
why have You forsaken me?
Why are You so far from saving me,
so far from my words of groaning?
2I cry out by day, O my God,
but You do not answer,
and by night,
but I have no rest.

7All who see me mock me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
8“He trusts in the LORD,
let the LORD deliver him;
let the LORD rescue him,
since He delights in him.”

16For dogs surround me;
a band of evil men encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet.
17I can count all my bones;
they stare and gloat over me.
18They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalms was written by King David 1000 years before Jesus' birth. The accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke of His crucifixion state that all of these things happened.

. Isaiah is all about Israel who is called God's servant all thru the Old Testament.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I already knew you were functionally illiterate, but sometimes you still amaze me with your complete inability to read and understand words.

Here's the full quote that you deliberately mangled so that you could pretend to "answer" something it didn't say, but that you preferred to what it ACTUALLY said:

Oh, so Smithsonian Magazine forced you to come to this message board and start a thread about how "brilliantly" you were going to "destroy" evangelical Christians by explaining something they 1) already know about, and 2) don't care about in regards to their religious beliefs, because it doesn't affect them in the slightest?

It is obvious to anyone who is not Fart Fun and who can therefore comprehend the English language that the "they" I was speaking of was Christians, not the people you slavishly worship as your heroes because you mistakenly think that adoring them will somehow convey their intelligence to you by some sort of fanboy osmosis.

Christians are already well aware of evolutionary theory, contrary to the apparent belief of your spiritual boyfriend, Abu. Christians also don't give a damn about evolutionary theory in regards to their religious beliefs, because evolution is irrelevant to Christianity, also contrary to the apparent belief of your boyfriend, Abu.

I find it heartwarming that you could find a soulmate of the same intellectual caliber as you on this message board, and I wish you and Abu many happy years of babbling mindlessly at each other and pinning clippings from Smithsonian to your walls together.

I didn't respond to that, ya moron. Pay attention!

You have now dodged tw questions, ya sissy. Why are you like this? Let's try again:

If our brains and even personalities are not just based in and the result of chemicals...then, what else?

Redirect some of that prancing peacock energy to that lump between your ears and give it a go.

 

[surada]

Unsurprisingly, you are incorrect, Oh Great-Scholar-Of-Things-You-Dismiss-As-Silly.

Isaiah chapter 7, verses 13-14:

(For context, in this chapter, two armies were marching on Jerusalem to try to conquer it. Obviously, the people of Jerusalem were terrified. God sent His prophet, Isaiah, to meet with Ahaz, the king of Judah, and tell him to be calm and to ask for a sign from God. Ahaz refuses, saying, "I will not test the Lord". Isaiah gets impatient with him, and this is his response.)

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.

Isaiah chapter 53, verses 1-8:

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,
no beauty that we should desire Him.
3He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.
Like one from whom men hide their faces,
He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
4Surely He took on our infirmities
and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God,
struck down and afflicted.
5But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
6We all like sheep have gone astray,
each one has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid upon Him
the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away,
and who can recount His descendants?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

The book of Isaiah was written over 700 years before the birth of Jesus.

Micah 5:2:

2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me
One to be ruler over Israel - One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

Micah was written 800 years before the birth of Jesus.

Psalm 22:

(I have selected the sections relevant to this discussion.)

1My God, my God,
why have You forsaken me?
Why are You so far from saving me,
so far from my words of groaning?
2I cry out by day, O my God,
but You do not answer,
and by night,
but I have no rest.

7All who see me mock me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
8“He trusts in the LORD,
let the LORD deliver him;
let the LORD rescue him,
since He delights in him.”

16For dogs surround me;
a band of evil men encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet.
17I can count all my bones;
they stare and gloat over me.
18They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalms was written by King David 1000 years before Jesus' birth. The accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke of His crucifixion state that all of these things happened.

Most of Psalms came from Ras Shamra and the Ugarit tablets a thousand years before King David.

 

[Cecilie1200]

1. This is an open message board.
Everyone comes "uninvited."
You fallacious @sshole.
2. I edited the article down to it's gist for this audience.
3. since you know shit about this section and it's interactions, let me tell you the most important thing about the article. It's talking from the perspective of a person of faith, not an "Atheist."
3a. You see, anyone here talking science/evo (and most of us are atheists/agnostics), is accused/discounted of being as an "atheist scientist," "a religion" they claim.
But as it turns out/the article points out, you can be a religionist and believe in Evolution. The anti-Evos here are mostly Biblical Literalists (Evangelicals) and ergo YEC/Young Earth Creationists.
That was the perspective, who I was talking to. Dead on the issue at hand.




We/No one posts what we don't agree with unless one says so immediately/outright.
I bolded 3 short passages what I felt were the most important parts.
Obviously.



"""..perhaps you could tell us WHY you think you need to talk to anyone about anything, or even why you think they would care what you have to say at all..."

Again vacuous/non sequitur guy..
This IS an Open Political Message board.
EVERYONE comes to give/blurt out their opinions.
Using Smithsonian for this particular OP, is just a much higher quality starter than most and again, directly addressing the opposition audience.

I use the best sources both here and in 'Environment.' (other Science section).
Those two are where I post.
What are YOU doing here BTW? 54,000 posts, where ya been BOY?
You thought this section was just like politics/80% one-line trolls?
Wrong BOY. There's some smart people here and in Env. Not you.

You fancy yourself quite the wordsmith do you?
Well you aren't.
Your posts are 90% Fallacies and strawmen, and you're not close to finessing or debating me.. BOY.
Back to Mensa for me, back to trolling the lesser trolls on USMB for you.

`

"You're so vacuous and empty, and your posts are full of fallacies and strawmen . . . and I can claim on the Internet to membership in Mensa, so I WIN!!!"

The funniest part of all this is you don't even realize the irony.

My posts have NO fallacies and strawmen, because I haven't made any claims, dumbass. Unlike you. All I did was ask a question, which you spend enormous amounts of meaningless characters trying to avoid answering. In fact, the main reason you're pissing and raving at me is because I refuse to let you turn this into, "I'm so much smarter, now YOU make all the claims and let me snipe at them."

This is an open message board, and anyone can post here. Despite your desperate need to hide behind that and pretend THAT is the point I made by very carefully editing down my words, here's what I ACTUALLY said:

YOU came to this message board, uninvited and decidedly undesired, and started a thread with these words:

"Poor Indoctrinated Cultists.
Turns out you have to break it to them gently. Very gently."

You came here specifically for the purpose of starting a thread to tell everyone how YOU have the one and only, absolute truth, and they are all stupid and intellectually inferior to you simply because they disagree with you. I never denied that you have every right to come here and make a monumental, arrogant ass of yourself, just as I don't deny that Jehovah's Witnesses have every legal right to go into neighborhoods and knock on doors. But, like Jehovah's Witnesses, you are uninvited and unwanted and mocked.

You seem to want very much to force me to have a proxy debate with Rick Potts, with him doing all the thinking and you taking all the credit. Unfortunately for you, I can't debate Rick Potts because he isn't here. YOU are. And my challenge is not to the article about him that you orgasmically posted; my challenge is to YOUR words, and your words only:

Poor Indoctrinated Cultists.
Turns out you have to break it to them gently. Very gently.

You have yet to answer my very simple question, despite writing reams of spittle-flecked invective about all the "beliefs" you want me to have stated instead: Who asked you? Why do you think you need to tell anyone anything?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I didn't respond to that, ya moron. Pay attention!

You have now dodged tw questions, ya sissy. Why are you like this? Let's try again:

If our brains and even personalities are not just based in and the result of chemicals...then, what else?

Redirect some of that prancing peacock energy to that lump between your ears and give it a go.

Yes, you Fart Fun. I KNOW you didn't respond to that. Pay attention! I pointed out very clearly that you carefully edited what I said so that you could respond to something you wanted to pretend I said.

You have now asked two questions based on the words you want to force into my mouth, and you have now been told twice to fuck off with your cowardice and deal with my ACTUAL points.

Let's try again: YOU made a claim: "Our brains and even personalities are based in and the result of chemicals." It is YOUR job to now explain and substantiate this claim. It is NOT my job to make a counter-argument and prove you wrong. I can see why you and Abu are such a great love match: You both have the same intellectual cowardice.

Redirect some of that lying energy to that vacuum between YOUR ears and try having the real conversation in front of you, instead of trying to divert it to the imaginary conversation script you invented for me.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"Our brains and even personalities are based in and the result of chemicals." It is YOUR job to now explain and substantiate this claim.

Thanks for the softball.

Because our brains are chemical physical systems, governed by the same physical laws as every other physical system.

Now that your whining has been crushed and dismissed, your turn.

If not just a chemical system, what else?

Or, roll into a ball and suck your thumb some more. Your call.

 

[abu afak]

I am reading a book that is actually called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", because frankly, this is what I'm left thinking every single time I listen to an atheist trying to make a logical argument (and it's pretty rare that they even do try).

1) The scientific evidence confirms that the universe exploded into being out of nothing. You'd be hard-pressed to find a major, respected scientist who doesn't accept the Big Bang Theory. Either someone or something created something out of nothing (the Christian view), or no one and nothing created something out of nothing (the atheistic view). Which one requires more faith? The atheistic view.

2) The genetic structure of even the simplest life form on Earth contains a complex code equivalent to 1,000 encyclopedias worth of information. Christians believe that coded information that complex requires an intelligent being to code it. Atheists believe that non-intelligent natural forces can create it randomly. Which one requires more faith? The atheists.

3) The birth, life, and death of a man claiming to be God were foretold in ancient writings hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. His birthplace, bloodline, and time of death were all predicted. Multiple eyewitnesses testified to these events happening, even though they had nothing whatsoever to gain by doing so. In fact, many of them persecuted and killed in horrific ways for doing so, but not one of them ever recanted. Ancient historians and writers allude to or confirm these events, and archaeology is increasingly corroborating them. If this were a criminal investigation, we'd already be preparing indictments. Atheists nevertheless just wave it all away, or more rarely try to produce the multiple theories that would all have to be true all at once to explain those things away. And, most notably, they have no evidence for any of those theories, much less all of them. Which viewpoint requires more faith? The atheists.

Sorry, but I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist. I am a Christian because I'm just too realistic and skeptical to close my eyes, stick my fingers in my ears, and proclaim a belief in the face of contradictory evidence. I'll leave the pie-eyed, unicorn-fart fantasies and daydreams to the fanatical atheists.

So you post your Wacko theories to Crusader Frank.
An Biblical LITTERalist and Evolution denying Nutbag.
He also denies Global warming and probably 10 other Basic science facts.,
the usual RW Numb nuts..
like you.

1. I already told you about 'God of the Gaps.'
Yours is the classic and most common fallacy.
We don't know how a few things started YET but that's no reason to fabricate a god.
Does NOT follow.
It's just replicating the terrible laziness and 'logic' of those who made the Fire, Lightning, and Fertility god/s.

God of the Gaps (well then, how did...")

This is probably THEE #1 rationale for those arguing for a god on msg boards. "Well then, did all this stuff just appear?".. "how did ___ if not god?" And we can see several Fallacious OPs currently employing this boner. If we can't explain it/explain it Yet, it must be 'god.' The same...

www.usmessageboard.com

2. Ah Yes, the unfathomable 'complexity' argument. Yawn.
Molecules, even non living ones, have natural tendencies, some form long chain molecules that look like life's precursors. And one must balance 'complexity againbst time and chances. Billions of years on quadrillions of planets with infinite amounts of micro-conditions and ingredients.
There might be many other forms of life. Life may even be probable.
In the meantime... been there/done that topic OF COURSE.
I have thread starts debunking all the Pillar Fallacies.

a. Junkyard Tornado Fallacy. "Long odds" of life/complex life​

​

b. Organic Materials Essential for Life on Earth are Found for the First time on the Surface of an Asteroid​

​

c. Scientists Discover a Self-Replicating Protein Structure, And It Could Have Built The First Life on​

3a. ""..The birth, life, and death of a man claiming to be God were foretold in ancient writings hundreds of years before the birth of Christ...""

Oooh, Campfire talk!!!!! (-: and many similar gods abound. Floods and Resurrections, for MANY other gods too.
No doubt. All borrow/poach/mix/match.
I think Odin is cool.

3b ""Multiple eyewitnesses testified to these events happening, even though they had nothing whatsoever to gain by doing so.""

and we have their testimony do we? Only that written in books wishing to deify someone.
Those books full of contradictions.

In fact, there is NO extra-Biblical evidence of anyone's Divinity.. and barely his life!


Summary:
It takes No "faith to be an atheist" (or agnostic) only the ability to say "we don't know/know yet." (let's look! The birth of science in many fields)
We are born atheists. It's only through Indoctrination people come to believe in gods.
No one would be finding Haysoos on a desert Island unpreached to.
Which/WITCH religion you are is a geo-Cultural accident of birth, not a discernible truth.

I am an atheist.
Show me some EVIDENCE of a god and will jump on the train.
ie, If the stars all line up one night and form the word "Vishnu" in Hindi, I would be thrilled. I'm in!
Of course, that would mean Tens of Millions of Suicides and complete disillusionment for the other 80% of the planet. But not me!
In fact, no matter which you believe in, at least 75% of the planet is wrong, even if one stepped in it.

No, Logic/history (NOT "Faith") tells us one thing on the topic: Man Created Gods.
Tens of Thousands of them. All on which we have a verdict have gone by the wayside... with no positive evidence in sight.

`

 

[james bond]

Well there's where you are wrong. They get to reap the benefits of the science built on a foundation in part of evolutionary theory.

. Puhleeze. You can KEEP YOUR LIES in your pants.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What else would it be? Do you think your brain is made up of lucky charms?

Awareness

 

[Hollie]

YOU apparently think exactly that, if you consider blind chance the only possible explanation.

The ''blind chance'' slogan is nonsense right out of creation ministries. It shows a complete lack of understanding about the most basic precepts of biological evolution.

 

[Grumblenuts]

It's also a more pathetic strawman than an if-apology. I think you think this BS about you that I just concocted because I also think you think this BS about you that I just concocted. Except, completely lacking the balls to take responsibility for my own opinions, I say "YOU apparently think" instead of simply saying "I think you think" blaa, blaa, blaa. -or- better yet, "Is this what you think?"

 

[Dagosa]

I am reading a book that is actually called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", because frankly, this is what I'm left thinking every single time I listen to an atheist trying to make a logical argument (and it's pretty rare that they even do try).

1) The scientific evidence confirms that the universe exploded into being out of nothing. You'd be hard-pressed to find a major, respected scientist who doesn't accept the Big Bang Theory. Either someone or something created something out of nothing (the Christian view), or no one and nothing created something out of nothing (the atheistic view). Which one requires more faith? The atheistic view.

2) The genetic structure of even the simplest life form on Earth contains a complex code equivalent to 1,000 encyclopedias worth of information. Christians believe that coded information that complex requires an intelligent being to code it. Atheists believe that non-intelligent natural forces can create it randomly. Which one requires more faith? The atheists.

3) The birth, life, and death of a man claiming to be God were foretold in ancient writings hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. His birthplace, bloodline, and time of death were all predicted. Multiple eyewitnesses testified to these events happening, even though they had nothing whatsoever to gain by doing so. In fact, many of them persecuted and killed in horrific ways for doing so, but not one of them ever recanted. Ancient historians and writers allude to or confirm these events, and archaeology is increasingly corroborating them. If this were a criminal investigation, we'd already be preparing indictments. Atheists nevertheless just wave it all away, or more rarely try to produce the multiple theories that would all have to be true all at once to explain those things away. And, most notably, they have no evidence for any of those theories, much less all of them. Which viewpoint requires more faith? The atheists.

Sorry, but I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist. I am a Christian because I'm just too realistic and skeptical to close my eyes, stick my fingers in my ears, and proclaim a belief in the face of contradictory evidence. I'll leave the pie-eyed, unicorn-fart fantasies and daydreams to the fanatical atheists.

It takes time to make up shit. Seriously, do think you have that much time you could be wasting on your “daydreams and fantasies.“

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Awareness

Your brain is made of awareness?

That don't make no sense Ricky bobby

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Your brain is made of awareness?

That don't make no sense Ricky bobby

If this were The Imitation Game, I'd correctly say you were a robot.