Sick and tired of US debate on raising the min. wage.

[Toddsterpatriot]

It hurts young people and those without job skills.

In one sense this is true. You can't pass a law that will magically make businesses more profitable for paying higher wages to their employees.

In another sense, no, it's not "job skills" we're talking about. It's police contact history. Felons welcome to apply if they've been convicted, served their time, and willingly given up their civil rights without an argument in court. Those released without a conviction are deemed to have "outstanding" or "unresolved" criminal problems on their record.

Labor unions are using false arrests and false criminal charges to prostitute females and to blackball and shitlist male "outsiders" from here to kingdom come if they aren't local or won't patronize the girls appropriately.

...what...?

I think it's mentally ill.

 

[dblack]

Pablum for the dummies.

 

[danielpalos]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

I have no idea what that means, Daniel? Once again...simple question...why did the number crunchers at the non partisan CBO get this so wrong?

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment. The same can be true for most individuals, as well, if the employment losses are spread broadly over the low-wage population.--https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/policy-basics-the-minimum-wage

 

[danielpalos]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

Higher labor costs causes employers to lay off employees which generates less tax revenue plus the State then has to contribute to the laid off workers unemployment benefits. The multiplier? Please tell me you're smart enough not to buy that shit that Nancy Pelosi was selling, Daniel!

There is no requirement that they do that unless they prefer to "hate on the Poor" since that cost can be passed on to their consumers.

 

[danielpalos]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

Higher paid labor creates more in demand

Higher labor costs reduce the demand for labor.

View attachment 456082

See, price increases, quantity demanded decreases.

Higher paid labor can afford it better and the least wealthy tend to spend most of their income. Even the dollar menu won't double even if the minimum wage does.

 

[danielpalos]

You didn't answer my question.

FAIL.

Only capitalists who prefer to hate on the Poor won't pass on that cost to their consumer like they do for every other cost they can get away with and still remain competitive.

 

[danielpalos]

An employer who is willing to afford Labor in our first world economy

Labor with a capital L. Sounds like a lot of work — and your party isn't the one to allow people to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.

We don't need low wage jobs in our first world economy.

I don't enjoy being gentrified, dressed up for business, and steamrolled out of work, and I don't want to pay for your me-first world-class shit.

We are discussing the minimum wage not the maximum wage. A statutory increase in that wage affects all employers. Capitalists can simply pass on that cost to remain competitive in their market and remain profitable. Only right wingers prefer to hate on the Poor for their bottom line.

 

[danielpalos]

Name a single time that we've ever increased the minimum wage by the amount that you on the left are demanding! You can't because we've NEVER been that stupid before now!

Only because the minimum wage was not adjusted for around a decade while inflation still happened. Don't blame the left when it is right wingers who only have right wing fantasy about the benefits of Capitalism, which can't even help wages for the Poor meet or beat inflation.

So you can't name a single time we've ever increased the minimum wage by this amount? Then how is it exactly that you're able to make the claim that it won't be inflationary? What do you base that on, Daniel? Wishful thinking?

I don't have to fantasize about the benefits of Capitalism. I can simply look at the amount of wealth that it has created and the millions of people that it has taken out of poverty. There is a reason why poor people from around the globe have wanted to come to America! It isn't because it the land of high minimum wages! It's because America is the land of opportunity. A place where with a great idea and a lot of hard work...you can become wildly successful.

Means nothing. Sounds like a good excuse for businesses to legitimately as for a tax break instead of tax breaks being handed out like candy by the previous administration.

I just asked you a very straight forward question, Daniel and you dodged it as usual. You claim that going to a $15 an hour minimum wage won't be inflationary. What do you base that on?

Inflation happens regardless. Inflation happened even with the minimum wage stagnating for around a decade. What is Your basis for such drama over any potential inflation from a Minimum wage?

One more time, Daniel...

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF THAT INCREASING MINIMUM WAGE BY SUCH A LARGE AMOUNT WON'T CAUSE INFLATION?

I can answer that, since I have been in business many times, for many decades.
In general, raising minimum wage won't have much of an effect.
If you have your business running efficiently, then labor is less than a third of your overhead. And most already are not minimum wage earners. So then the increase in costs will likely be smaller than 5% or so. Which should not effect most businesses very much.

The exception is a very low markup, high unskilled labor business.
Fast food, Walmart, and those kinds of places.
But a 5% increase, making burgers cost ten cents more, is not going to hurt any business, because all fast food will be going up the same amount.

High tech requires labor that usually above the minimum wage. Besides, going high-tech can help mitigate the pandemic.

 

[Canon Shooter]

You didn't answer my question.

FAIL.

Only capitalists who prefer to hate on the Poor won't pass on that cost to their consumer like they do for every other cost they can get away with and still remain competitive.

There comes a time when the consumer decides they no longer want your product because of the price.

I'm a businessman. I'm not in business to provide minimum wage jobs to people who are too lazy to obtain valuable, marketable skills. I'm in business to make money. Period. I make a lot of it, as a matter of fact, and those employees who've worked to better themselves and make themselves more valuable to my companies are rewarded for their hard work.

But I'll be damned if I'm gonna' pay someone $15 an hour for someone to clean a fuckin' urinal...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

I have no idea what that means, Daniel? Once again...simple question...why did the number crunchers at the non partisan CBO get this so wrong?

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment. The same can be true for most individuals, as well, if the employment losses are spread broadly over the low-wage population.--https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/policy-basics-the-minimum-wage

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment.

How much more.....as a group?

 

[danielpalos]

There comes a time when the consumer decides they no longer want your product because of the price.

I'm a businessman. I'm not in business to provide minimum wage jobs to people who are too lazy to obtain valuable, marketable skills. I'm in business to make money. Period. I make a lot of it, as a matter of fact, and those employees who've worked to better themselves and make themselves more valuable to my companies are rewarded for their hard work.

But I'll be damned if I'm gonna' pay someone $15 an hour for someone to clean a fuckin' urinal...

Special pleading is what right wingers do best. Your business does not operate in a vacuum. The minimum wage also went to that same cost for all of your competition. The consumer only sees the price inflation you are willing to compete with.

 

[danielpalos]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

I have no idea what that means, Daniel? Once again...simple question...why did the number crunchers at the non partisan CBO get this so wrong?

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment. The same can be true for most individuals, as well, if the employment losses are spread broadly over the low-wage population.--https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/policy-basics-the-minimum-wage

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment.

How much more.....as a group?

Enough for it to be true that higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue through the multiplier effect.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

I have no idea what that means, Daniel? Once again...simple question...why did the number crunchers at the non partisan CBO get this so wrong?

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment. The same can be true for most individuals, as well, if the employment losses are spread broadly over the low-wage population.--https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/policy-basics-the-minimum-wage

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment.

How much more.....as a group?

Enough for it to be true that higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue through the multiplier effect.

How much in real numbers, not your gibberish claims........

 

[justinacolmena]

We are discussing the minimum wage not the maximum wage. A statutory increase in that wage affects all employers. Capitalists can simply pass on that cost to remain competitive in their market and remain profitable. Only right wingers prefer to hate on the Poor for their bottom line.

Minimum wage is all relative to the cost of the stuff you have to buy on that wage to "live" i.e. make it a "living wage"

The "bottom line" at a large corporation can be a hard ceiling on wages.

There's also a minimum cost or standard of living mandated by city hall and forced out of reach of low-wage earners.

 

[justinacolmena]

High tech requires labor that usually above the minimum wage. Besides, going high-tech can help mitigate the pandemic

U.S. citizens aren't qualified for high-tech work in their own country. Workers have to be imported from India on H1-B non-immigrant visas for high tech jobs. [/SARCASM]

 

[justinacolmena]

But I'll be damned if I'm gonna' pay someone $15 an hour for someone to clean a fuckin' urinal

Get the cameras out of the bathrooms and the bathroom pictures off the internet. I don't like that life-ruining corporate H.R. bullshit any more than anyone else does. You're not making any money at that at all unless you're in the pornography industry.

 

[justinacolmena]

I think it's mentally ill.

Mental health law is how vice is enforced, promoted, and compelled.

 

[Oldestyle]

Around nineteen percent for the previous decade. It is awful for minimum wage earners trying to be able to afford our first world economy.

Don't be so uppity and charge so much for rent, groceries, fuel, car insurance, mental health insurance, and so on and so forth. If there's a minimum wage, don't be such a buttfucker and raise the minimum rent above what that can pay for.

Floor, walls, windows and doors, roof to keep the rain and snow out, kitchen and bath -- keep the cost down a little let people build on their own -- don't force such a High California standard of living that people can't afford it anyways. Prison isn't comfortable, and it isn't cheap either.

Inflation still happens regardless. Only right wingers prefer to "hate on the Poor" instead of being more market friendly.

If you can't afford rent...get a roomate...get two...get three! When I lived in Aspen ski bums would cram ten people into a two bedroom apartment because the rent was so high it was the only way to swing it. That had nothing to do with someone being "uppity"...it was all about supply and demand. The market set the price on rentals. People adapted to be able to live there. The concept isn't any different for low income people looking for affordable housing.

Use the barter system. Offer your landlord something in value in return for a lower rent. What skills do you have that are valuable? A good friend of mine was a carpenter before he went to college...he got cheap rent by renovating apartments one at a time as he was living in them. He had to move about every three months which sucked but his rent was next to nothing.

My point is if you want to make it in this world...use your head. Don't expect the government to give you things. Everything you need is out there waiting for you to get off your ass and figure out how to take advantage of it!

That is unrealistic.
Sure, as a student we crammed a many people are we could.
I lived in a closet.
But the point is ever since the industrial revolution, those with capital have a monopoly on jobs, and ever since the frontier was gone, you have no escape from that economic dictatorship.
But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.
And rents are through the roof due to unfair tax laws and mortgage lending practices, again established by monopolies.

So a reasonable minimum wage is required, since most people don't have union collective bargaining protection.
It is just unclear to me exactly what it should be because it likely should be dependent on local conditions, not federal.

But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.

They do? Link?

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.
When some people started claiming they now suddenly owned land they did not create, it was allowed by government, so then government owes those it took the public land from, some reasonable alternative means of survival.

People are not owed a living wage is they do not work, but is they put in 40 hours a week, they should be able to raise a family on that. If they can't, then there is some sort of unfair business practice, monopoly, illegal trust, etc.

Are you serious? You really think that a minimum wage job should enable someone to raise a family on what they're being paid? That's absurd! Minimum wage jobs are designed to be a short term thing for people with no job skills (usually young people) or a part time thing for people looking to supplement their income (usually older people).

 

[dblack]

Around nineteen percent for the previous decade. It is awful for minimum wage earners trying to be able to afford our first world economy.

Don't be so uppity and charge so much for rent, groceries, fuel, car insurance, mental health insurance, and so on and so forth. If there's a minimum wage, don't be such a buttfucker and raise the minimum rent above what that can pay for.

Floor, walls, windows and doors, roof to keep the rain and snow out, kitchen and bath -- keep the cost down a little let people build on their own -- don't force such a High California standard of living that people can't afford it anyways. Prison isn't comfortable, and it isn't cheap either.

Inflation still happens regardless. Only right wingers prefer to "hate on the Poor" instead of being more market friendly.

If you can't afford rent...get a roomate...get two...get three! When I lived in Aspen ski bums would cram ten people into a two bedroom apartment because the rent was so high it was the only way to swing it. That had nothing to do with someone being "uppity"...it was all about supply and demand. The market set the price on rentals. People adapted to be able to live there. The concept isn't any different for low income people looking for affordable housing.

Use the barter system. Offer your landlord something in value in return for a lower rent. What skills do you have that are valuable? A good friend of mine was a carpenter before he went to college...he got cheap rent by renovating apartments one at a time as he was living in them. He had to move about every three months which sucked but his rent was next to nothing.

My point is if you want to make it in this world...use your head. Don't expect the government to give you things. Everything you need is out there waiting for you to get off your ass and figure out how to take advantage of it!

That is unrealistic.
Sure, as a student we crammed a many people are we could.
I lived in a closet.
But the point is ever since the industrial revolution, those with capital have a monopoly on jobs, and ever since the frontier was gone, you have no escape from that economic dictatorship.
But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.
And rents are through the roof due to unfair tax laws and mortgage lending practices, again established by monopolies.

So a reasonable minimum wage is required, since most people don't have union collective bargaining protection.
It is just unclear to me exactly what it should be because it likely should be dependent on local conditions, not federal.

But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.

They do? Link?

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.
When some people started claiming they now suddenly owned land they did not create, it was allowed by government, so then government owes those it took the public land from, some reasonable alternative means of survival.

People are not owed a living wage is they do not work, but is they put in 40 hours a week, they should be able to raise a family on that. If they can't, then there is some sort of unfair business practice, monopoly, illegal trust, etc.

Are you serious? You really think that a minimum wage job should enable someone to raise a family on what they're being paid? That's absurd!

And by extension, no one is allowed to work unless they are earning enough to support a family.

 

[Oldestyle]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

Higher labor costs causes employers to lay off employees which generates less tax revenue plus the State then has to contribute to the laid off workers unemployment benefits. The multiplier? Please tell me you're smart enough not to buy that shit that Nancy Pelosi was selling, Daniel!

There is no requirement that they do that unless they prefer to "hate on the Poor" since that cost can be passed on to their consumers.

Let's cut to the chase then, Daniel! Do you think raising the minimum wage will help the "poor"?