Sick and tired of US debate on raising the min. wage.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Around nineteen percent for the previous decade. It is awful for minimum wage earners trying to be able to afford our first world economy.

Don't be so uppity and charge so much for rent, groceries, fuel, car insurance, mental health insurance, and so on and so forth. If there's a minimum wage, don't be such a buttfucker and raise the minimum rent above what that can pay for.

Floor, walls, windows and doors, roof to keep the rain and snow out, kitchen and bath -- keep the cost down a little let people build on their own -- don't force such a High California standard of living that people can't afford it anyways. Prison isn't comfortable, and it isn't cheap either.

Inflation still happens regardless. Only right wingers prefer to "hate on the Poor" instead of being more market friendly.

If you can't afford rent...get a roomate...get two...get three! When I lived in Aspen ski bums would cram ten people into a two bedroom apartment because the rent was so high it was the only way to swing it. That had nothing to do with someone being "uppity"...it was all about supply and demand. The market set the price on rentals. People adapted to be able to live there. The concept isn't any different for low income people looking for affordable housing.

Use the barter system. Offer your landlord something in value in return for a lower rent. What skills do you have that are valuable? A good friend of mine was a carpenter before he went to college...he got cheap rent by renovating apartments one at a time as he was living in them. He had to move about every three months which sucked but his rent was next to nothing.

My point is if you want to make it in this world...use your head. Don't expect the government to give you things. Everything you need is out there waiting for you to get off your ass and figure out how to take advantage of it!

That is unrealistic.
Sure, as a student we crammed a many people are we could.
I lived in a closet.
But the point is ever since the industrial revolution, those with capital have a monopoly on jobs, and ever since the frontier was gone, you have no escape from that economic dictatorship.
But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.
And rents are through the roof due to unfair tax laws and mortgage lending practices, again established by monopolies.

So a reasonable minimum wage is required, since most people don't have union collective bargaining protection.
It is just unclear to me exactly what it should be because it likely should be dependent on local conditions, not federal.

But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.

They do? Link?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your "solution" is to take jobs away from people and put them on a government "dole"! That isn't good for the people or for the country. Minimum Wage isn't supposed to be something that people remain on for a long period of time! I'm sorry but just isn't! It's what businesses pay entry level employees with few job skills. Part of what someone receives as an entry level worker is training that qualifies them for better jobs and better pay. You don't seem to understand that and I wonder why that is?

I am advocating for more comprehensive unemployment compensation which has an already measured multiplier of two. What is the ratio of employees employers would lay off or reduce their hours? Most of their labor force would still be working and making the higher wages and therefore creating more in demand and generating more tax revenue; the multiplier would have its usual effect, demand would increase employers will start to hire more people to meet that additional demand.

The CBO is estimating that 1.3 million Americans would lose their jobs if the $15 minimum wage was passed. They are also predicting a slower economy and increased inflation.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing, that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.
Inflation is good to some degree, because it reduces the pain of repaying loans the businesses took out to get started.
We want some constant inflation.
It reduces old debt.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing,

Yes, that's our problem, we have too much investing and saving.

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

 

[Rigby5]

Around nineteen percent for the previous decade. It is awful for minimum wage earners trying to be able to afford our first world economy.

Don't be so uppity and charge so much for rent, groceries, fuel, car insurance, mental health insurance, and so on and so forth. If there's a minimum wage, don't be such a buttfucker and raise the minimum rent above what that can pay for.

Floor, walls, windows and doors, roof to keep the rain and snow out, kitchen and bath -- keep the cost down a little let people build on their own -- don't force such a High California standard of living that people can't afford it anyways. Prison isn't comfortable, and it isn't cheap either.

Inflation still happens regardless. Only right wingers prefer to "hate on the Poor" instead of being more market friendly.

If you can't afford rent...get a roomate...get two...get three! When I lived in Aspen ski bums would cram ten people into a two bedroom apartment because the rent was so high it was the only way to swing it. That had nothing to do with someone being "uppity"...it was all about supply and demand. The market set the price on rentals. People adapted to be able to live there. The concept isn't any different for low income people looking for affordable housing.

Use the barter system. Offer your landlord something in value in return for a lower rent. What skills do you have that are valuable? A good friend of mine was a carpenter before he went to college...he got cheap rent by renovating apartments one at a time as he was living in them. He had to move about every three months which sucked but his rent was next to nothing.

My point is if you want to make it in this world...use your head. Don't expect the government to give you things. Everything you need is out there waiting for you to get off your ass and figure out how to take advantage of it!

That is unrealistic.
Sure, as a student we crammed a many people are we could.
I lived in a closet.
But the point is ever since the industrial revolution, those with capital have a monopoly on jobs, and ever since the frontier was gone, you have no escape from that economic dictatorship.
But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.
And rents are through the roof due to unfair tax laws and mortgage lending practices, again established by monopolies.

So a reasonable minimum wage is required, since most people don't have union collective bargaining protection.
It is just unclear to me exactly what it should be because it likely should be dependent on local conditions, not federal.

But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.

They do? Link?

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.
When some people started claiming they now suddenly owned land they did not create, it was allowed by government, so then government owes those it took the public land from, some reasonable alternative means of survival.

People are not owed a living wage is they do not work, but is they put in 40 hours a week, they should be able to raise a family on that. If they can't, then there is some sort of unfair business practice, monopoly, illegal trust, etc.

 

[Rigby5]

Your "solution" is to take jobs away from people and put them on a government "dole"! That isn't good for the people or for the country. Minimum Wage isn't supposed to be something that people remain on for a long period of time! I'm sorry but just isn't! It's what businesses pay entry level employees with few job skills. Part of what someone receives as an entry level worker is training that qualifies them for better jobs and better pay. You don't seem to understand that and I wonder why that is?

I am advocating for more comprehensive unemployment compensation which has an already measured multiplier of two. What is the ratio of employees employers would lay off or reduce their hours? Most of their labor force would still be working and making the higher wages and therefore creating more in demand and generating more tax revenue; the multiplier would have its usual effect, demand would increase employers will start to hire more people to meet that additional demand.

The CBO is estimating that 1.3 million Americans would lose their jobs if the $15 minimum wage was passed. They are also predicting a slower economy and increased inflation.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing, that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.
Inflation is good to some degree, because it reduces the pain of repaying loans the businesses took out to get started.
We want some constant inflation.
It reduces old debt.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing,

Yes, that's our problem, we have too much investing and saving.

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Actually too much saving and investing is the main problem.
And that is because they are investing in China, due to the higher return on slave labor.
More minimum wage jobs is not good for the economy.
We should have more trade schools to move people up to higher skilled jobs.

 

[danielpalos]

The CBO is estimating that 1.3 million Americans would lose their jobs if the $15 minimum wage was passed. They are also predicting a slower economy and increased inflation.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that low-wage workers as a group gain more income from the higher wage than they lose from reduced employment. The same can be true for most individuals, as well, if the employment losses are spread broadly over the low-wage population.

Policy Basics: The Minimum Wage | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

Who Is Covered by the Federal Minimum Wage? Most workers employed in the United States are covered by the minimum wage. Employees of any business or enterprise with gross annual sales or business...

www.cbpp.org

 

[danielpalos]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

 

[danielpalos]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

 

[Oldestyle]

Your "solution" is to take jobs away from people and put them on a government "dole"! That isn't good for the people or for the country. Minimum Wage isn't supposed to be something that people remain on for a long period of time! I'm sorry but just isn't! It's what businesses pay entry level employees with few job skills. Part of what someone receives as an entry level worker is training that qualifies them for better jobs and better pay. You don't seem to understand that and I wonder why that is?

I am advocating for more comprehensive unemployment compensation which has an already measured multiplier of two. What is the ratio of employees employers would lay off or reduce their hours? Most of their labor force would still be working and making the higher wages and therefore creating more in demand and generating more tax revenue; the multiplier would have its usual effect, demand would increase employers will start to hire more people to meet that additional demand.

The CBO is estimating that 1.3 million Americans would lose their jobs if the $15 minimum wage was passed. They are also predicting a slower economy and increased inflation.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing, that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.
Inflation is good to some degree, because it reduces the pain of repaying loans the businesses took out to get started.
We want some constant inflation.
It reduces old debt.

So you're saying that the CBO is totally out to lunch with their projections? I think you're miscalculating what a $15 an hour minimum wage would mean in rural economies. It's basically already there in places like New York City and California...but in places like Alabama or Kansas that kind of an increase would close down thousands of small businesses and put their employees out on the street. Quite obviously THEY won't be spending or investing! Please cite these "other people" that think an increase of the minimum wage will boost the economy? I'd love to see their reasoning.

 

[Oldestyle]

Would you care to explain why the number crunchers at the CBO have gotten it wrong, Daniel?

A more limited scope of that study?

I have no idea what that means, Daniel? Once again...simple question...why did the number crunchers at the non partisan CBO get this so wrong?

 

[Oldestyle]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

Higher labor costs causes employers to lay off employees which generates less tax revenue plus the State then has to contribute to the laid off workers unemployment benefits. The multiplier? Please tell me you're smart enough not to buy that shit that Nancy Pelosi was selling, Daniel!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Around nineteen percent for the previous decade. It is awful for minimum wage earners trying to be able to afford our first world economy.

Don't be so uppity and charge so much for rent, groceries, fuel, car insurance, mental health insurance, and so on and so forth. If there's a minimum wage, don't be such a buttfucker and raise the minimum rent above what that can pay for.

Floor, walls, windows and doors, roof to keep the rain and snow out, kitchen and bath -- keep the cost down a little let people build on their own -- don't force such a High California standard of living that people can't afford it anyways. Prison isn't comfortable, and it isn't cheap either.

Inflation still happens regardless. Only right wingers prefer to "hate on the Poor" instead of being more market friendly.

If you can't afford rent...get a roomate...get two...get three! When I lived in Aspen ski bums would cram ten people into a two bedroom apartment because the rent was so high it was the only way to swing it. That had nothing to do with someone being "uppity"...it was all about supply and demand. The market set the price on rentals. People adapted to be able to live there. The concept isn't any different for low income people looking for affordable housing.

Use the barter system. Offer your landlord something in value in return for a lower rent. What skills do you have that are valuable? A good friend of mine was a carpenter before he went to college...he got cheap rent by renovating apartments one at a time as he was living in them. He had to move about every three months which sucked but his rent was next to nothing.

My point is if you want to make it in this world...use your head. Don't expect the government to give you things. Everything you need is out there waiting for you to get off your ass and figure out how to take advantage of it!

That is unrealistic.
Sure, as a student we crammed a many people are we could.
I lived in a closet.
But the point is ever since the industrial revolution, those with capital have a monopoly on jobs, and ever since the frontier was gone, you have no escape from that economic dictatorship.
But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.
And rents are through the roof due to unfair tax laws and mortgage lending practices, again established by monopolies.

So a reasonable minimum wage is required, since most people don't have union collective bargaining protection.
It is just unclear to me exactly what it should be because it likely should be dependent on local conditions, not federal.

But people have a right to a living wage they can raise a family on.

They do? Link?

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.
When some people started claiming they now suddenly owned land they did not create, it was allowed by government, so then government owes those it took the public land from, some reasonable alternative means of survival.

People are not owed a living wage is they do not work, but is they put in 40 hours a week, they should be able to raise a family on that. If they can't, then there is some sort of unfair business practice, monopoly, illegal trust, etc.

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.

Everyone shared? Sounds unlikely.

When some people started claiming they now suddenly owned land they did not create, it was allowed by government,

Only some people started claiming? Why not everyone?

so then government owes those it took the public land from

How could government take land that no one owned? You're not making any sense.
Where does it say the government owes? Link?

People are not owed a living wage

Thanks for admitting your error.

but is they put in 40 hours a week, they should be able to raise a family on that.

Should? Is that a law? In the US Constitution? Or just your feeling?

If they can't, then there is some sort of unfair business practice, monopoly, illegal trust, etc.

What if the worker is unskilled? Unreliable? A drunk? A moron?
How is that an unfair business practice?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your "solution" is to take jobs away from people and put them on a government "dole"! That isn't good for the people or for the country. Minimum Wage isn't supposed to be something that people remain on for a long period of time! I'm sorry but just isn't! It's what businesses pay entry level employees with few job skills. Part of what someone receives as an entry level worker is training that qualifies them for better jobs and better pay. You don't seem to understand that and I wonder why that is?

I am advocating for more comprehensive unemployment compensation which has an already measured multiplier of two. What is the ratio of employees employers would lay off or reduce their hours? Most of their labor force would still be working and making the higher wages and therefore creating more in demand and generating more tax revenue; the multiplier would have its usual effect, demand would increase employers will start to hire more people to meet that additional demand.

The CBO is estimating that 1.3 million Americans would lose their jobs if the $15 minimum wage was passed. They are also predicting a slower economy and increased inflation.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing, that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.
Inflation is good to some degree, because it reduces the pain of repaying loans the businesses took out to get started.
We want some constant inflation.
It reduces old debt.

Other people are predicting that since minimum wage people spend instead of saving or investing,

Yes, that's our problem, we have too much investing and saving.

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Actually too much saving and investing is the main problem.
And that is because they are investing in China, due to the higher return on slave labor.
More minimum wage jobs is not good for the economy.
We should have more trade schools to move people up to higher skilled jobs.

Actually too much saving and investing is the main problem.

That's hilarious!! You must be a liberal.

And that is because they are investing in China,

Everyone who is saving/investing is investing in China?

More minimum wage jobs is not good for the economy.

Then reducing jobs for the unskilled must be very good.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

that an increase in minimum wage employment will be the best way possible to boost the economy.

Who has a plan to increase minimum wage employment?

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier does the rest.

Higher paid labor creates more in demand

Higher labor costs reduce the demand for labor.

See, price increases, quantity demanded decreases.

 

[justinacolmena]

People are not owed a living wage

That's an absurd, preposterous statement right off the bat. You need a lesson in basic morals. An honest day's pay for an honest day's work, that sort of thing. I'm not being “progressive” or asking for more money, better standard of living. It sounds old fashioned, but the money people earn is in fact owed to them, for the work they do for a company that helps the company make a profit.

 

[justinacolmena]

People evolved with a wide open frontier of land everyone shared.

Everyone shared? Sounds unlikely.

Marxists and Commies are always rewriting history to avoid guns, violence, and private property.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Well, I'm hardly a "right winger".

Your comment is ignorant. If my businesses remain healthy, then I'm able to keep people employed. If those businesses aren't healthy, then instead of only the bathroom cleaner not being employed, no one will be employed.

Which is better?

An employer who is willing to afford Labor in our first world economy. Don't be soo disingenuous. The minimum wage does not operate in a vacuum but is merely one market based metric. Besides, Capitalists who can Only make it on cheap labor should fail.

You didn't answer my question.

FAIL.

 

[justinacolmena]

An employer who is willing to afford Labor in our first world economy

Labor with a capital L. Sounds like a lot of work — and your party isn't the one to allow people to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.

We don't need low wage jobs in our first world economy.

I don't enjoy being gentrified, dressed up for business, and steamrolled out of work, and I don't want to pay for your me-first world-class shit.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

People are not owed a living wage

That's an absurd, preposterous statement right off the bat. You need a lesson in basic morals. An honest day's pay for an honest day's work, that sort of thing. I'm not being “progressive” or asking for more money, better standard of living. It sounds old fashioned, but the money people earn is in fact owed to them, for the work they do for a company that helps the company make a profit.

You need a lesson in basic morals.

And you need lessons in economics and law.

 

[Jarlaxle]

It hurts young people and those without job skills.

In one sense this is true. You can't pass a law that will magically make businesses more profitable for paying higher wages to their employees.

In another sense, no, it's not "job skills" we're talking about. It's police contact history. Felons welcome to apply if they've been convicted, served their time, and willingly given up their civil rights without an argument in court. Those released without a conviction are deemed to have "outstanding" or "unresolved" criminal problems on their record.

Labor unions are using false arrests and false criminal charges to prostitute females and to blackball and shitlist male "outsiders" from here to kingdom come if they aren't local or won't patronize the girls appropriately.

...what...?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Name a single time that we've ever increased the minimum wage by the amount that you on the left are demanding! You can't because we've NEVER been that stupid before now!

Only because the minimum wage was not adjusted for around a decade while inflation still happened. Don't blame the left when it is right wingers who only have right wing fantasy about the benefits of Capitalism, which can't even help wages for the Poor meet or beat inflation.

So you can't name a single time we've ever increased the minimum wage by this amount? Then how is it exactly that you're able to make the claim that it won't be inflationary? What do you base that on, Daniel? Wishful thinking?

I don't have to fantasize about the benefits of Capitalism. I can simply look at the amount of wealth that it has created and the millions of people that it has taken out of poverty. There is a reason why poor people from around the globe have wanted to come to America! It isn't because it the land of high minimum wages! It's because America is the land of opportunity. A place where with a great idea and a lot of hard work...you can become wildly successful.

Means nothing. Sounds like a good excuse for businesses to legitimately as for a tax break instead of tax breaks being handed out like candy by the previous administration.

I just asked you a very straight forward question, Daniel and you dodged it as usual. You claim that going to a $15 an hour minimum wage won't be inflationary. What do you base that on?

Inflation happens regardless. Inflation happened even with the minimum wage stagnating for around a decade. What is Your basis for such drama over any potential inflation from a Minimum wage?

One more time, Daniel...

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF THAT INCREASING MINIMUM WAGE BY SUCH A LARGE AMOUNT WON'T CAUSE INFLATION?

I can answer that, since I have been in business many times, for many decades.
In general, raising minimum wage won't have much of an effect.
If you have your business running efficiently, then labor is less than a third of your overhead. And most already are not minimum wage earners. So then the increase in costs will likely be smaller than 5% or so. Which should not effect most businesses very much.

The exception is a very low markup, high unskilled labor business.
Fast food, Walmart, and those kinds of places.
But a 5% increase, making burgers cost ten cents more, is not going to hurt any business, because all fast food will be going up the same amount.