Should the Muslim Church Excommunicate ISIS?

Geaux4it

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Good question. I was reading an article this morning that mentioned this. I haven't thought about that but it makes sense.

-Geaux
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The extinction of ISIS

Some argue that Muslim religious authorities ought to excommunicate ISIS, and that would solve the problem. Though rather rare, excommunication has taken place in Muslim history — but not on the grounds of sinful actions, grotesque though they might be. Criminals can be punished or fought against, even killed; but traditional religious authorities insist such criminals must still be recognized as Muslim, unless they repudiate core Islamic theological beliefs, like the unity of God, for example. Ironically, it is heterodox movements that regularly resort to excommunication for non-theological reasons – indeed, ISIS appears to do that regularly.

This stupidity needs to end Why the Atlantic NY Post are clueless about Islam - Salon.com
 

Delta4Embassy

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Is there a 'head' Sunni or Shia who could do that? Or is ISIS and other terror groups some spin-off faction not actually 'card carrying' members of the main faction?

Comparison that comes to mind comes from watching some "Amish Mafia" last night. Lebanon Levy isn't a baptized Amish, so the Amish church officials can't actually shun or otherwise punish him. Yet Levy still acts on Amish-behalf.
 

martybegan

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Islam isn't as centralized as Christianity is (even though it is broken up into multiple churches and congregations). There is no equivalent to the Holy See, the Patriarch, or even the national level Lutheran Churches. There are no synods or the equivalent.

It is kind of Ironic that ISIS WANTS something like the holy see, i.e. the Caliphate to finally re-unify Islam. However the difference is the Caliphate in their view is both a religious AND a political force.

The closest thing Islam has to a overreaching religious force is Saudi Arabia due to their control of Mecca, and even that is tenuous because any effort by them to restrict the Haij would be met with backlash.
 

Sunni Man

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Is there a 'head' Sunni or Shia who could do that? Or is ISIS and other terror groups some spin-off faction not actually 'card carrying' members of the main faction?
The Shia have a formal religious hierarchy much like the Catholic church. Where the Grand Ayatollah of Iran is like the Pope and his word is law. And all Shia muslims in the world must obey him.

Whereas, the Sunni do not have a centralized authority figure. All their mosque's are independently owned and built by the local congregation's members. The Imam's dictates and directives (fatwas) can be either followed or ignored by the membership.

So to answer your question: There is no centralized Sunni religious authority to call ISIS to task or halt their operations. ....... :cool:
 

UllysesS.Archer

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How would Christians go about excommunicating the Westboro Baptist Church?
 

Syriusly

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What I would like to see is Egypt, Jordan and the Gulf States committing ground forces to defeating ISIS- Iran already is- which is giving Iran inroads into Iraq- and Turkey should- but won't. Egypt, Jordan and the Gulf States have the professional military to take on ISIS and I hope that they will.
 

Osomir

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Good question. I was reading an article this morning that mentioned this. I haven't thought about that but it makes sense.

-Geaux
-----------------------

The extinction of ISIS

Some argue that Muslim religious authorities ought to excommunicate ISIS, and that would solve the problem. Though rather rare, excommunication has taken place in Muslim history — but not on the grounds of sinful actions, grotesque though they might be. Criminals can be punished or fought against, even killed; but traditional religious authorities insist such criminals must still be recognized as Muslim, unless they repudiate core Islamic theological beliefs, like the unity of God, for example. Ironically, it is heterodox movements that regularly resort to excommunication for non-theological reasons – indeed, ISIS appears to do that regularly.

This stupidity needs to end Why the Atlantic NY Post are clueless about Islam - Salon.com
There is no such thing as "the Muslim church" so it seems like a fairly odd question to ask.
 

Osomir

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The Shia have a formal religious hierarchy much like the Catholic church. Where the Grand Ayatollah of Iran is like the Pope and his word is law. And all Shia muslims in the world must obey him.
That isn't even close to true.
 

Osomir

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The Shia have a formal religious hierarchy much like the Catholic church. Where the Grand Ayatollah of Iran is like the Pope and his word is law. And all Shia muslims in the world must obey him.
I like how you didn't attempt to even deny the fact that you blatantly made this up.
 

Osomir

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So what is your problem Shlomo? ..... :cool:
Your intellectual dishonesty, and ridiculous attempt to lump all Shias together. Why even try to do that?

Also, implying that I must be Jewish simply because I disagree with you is pretty sad.
 

Sunni Man

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Your intellectual dishonesty, and ridiculous attempt to lump all Shias together. Why even try to do that?
Also, implying that I must be Jewish simply because I disagree with you is pretty sad.
What do you expect people to think when your avatar is the zionist symbol for hate and terrorism. ...... :cool:
 

Osomir

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Your intellectual dishonesty, and ridiculous attempt to lump all Shias together. Why even try to do that?
Also, implying that I must be Jewish simply because I disagree with you is pretty sad.
What do you expect people to think when your avatar is the zionist symbol for hate and terrorism. ...... :cool:
Haha, I guess that is fair enough; though the symbol is the Seal of Solomon. Not exactly one of hate and terror; conflating Judaism or even Solomonic tradition with the actions of modern day secular states like Israel isn't fair. Also, for future reference I'm not Jewish.

Also, as a Sunni, you should know that the Seal / Wisdom of Solomon appears within Islamic tradition as well.

All of that aside, You know full well that what you said about Shias isn't even remotely true and completely ignores the difference schools of thought within Shia Islam. Your attempt to link them all to Iran is reminiscent of the language of Sunni radicalism which has been used all too often to justify attacks against Shia civilians and innocents; and the world certainly doesn't need more of that.
 
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Sunni Man

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All of that aside, You know full well that what you said about Shias isn't even remotely true and completely ignores the difference schools of thought within Shia Islam. Your attempt to link them all to Iran is reminiscent of the language of Sunni radicalism which has been used all too often to justify attacks against Shia civilians and innocents; and the world certainly doesn't need more of that.
95% of the world's Shia are members of the 12'er sect of Shiism.

Iran is the theological center of orthodox 12'er Shiism and the only Shia nation.

The Grand Ayatollah who is the spiritual leader of the 12'er Shia rules from Iran.

So yes, what I said is factual. ..... :cool:
 

Osomir

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All of that aside, You know full well that what you said about Shias isn't even remotely true and completely ignores the difference schools of thought within Shia Islam. Your attempt to link them all to Iran is reminiscent of the language of Sunni radicalism which has been used all too often to justify attacks against Shia civilians and innocents; and the world certainly doesn't need more of that.
95% of the world's Shia are members of the 12'er sect of Shiism.

Iran is the theological center of orthodox 12'er Shiism and the only Shia nation.

The Grand Ayatollah who is the spiritual leader of the 12'er Shia rules from Iran.

So yes, what I said is factual. ..... :cool:
You just admitted that what you said wasn't factual. Also, 12er Shias don't owe their religious adherence to the seat in Iran. In fact we constantly use a 12er Shia country (Azerbaijan) to put pressure on Iran. Suggesting that they all owe allegiance to Iran also completely ignores open conflicts that Iran has had with other 12er shia populations (such as the fighting historically between Hezbollah and Amal in Lebanon prior to the current coalition. In fact, the type of political shiism that we saw emerge in Iran is historically pretty new relative the the more historical apolitical shiism.

You have absolutely nothing to base your assertion on. You might as well tell us how all Muslims who profess to be Sunni all agree with one another and follow the role of the head of the four main schools of thought at Al Azhar. Ridiculous.
 

Sunni Man

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You just admitted that what you said wasn't factual. Also, 12er Shias don't owe their religious adherence to the seat in Iran. In fact we constantly use a 12er Shia country (Azerbaijan) to put pressure on Iran. Suggesting that they all owe allegiance to Iran also completely ignores open conflicts that Iran has had with other 12er shia populations (such as the fighting historically between Hezbollah and Amal in Lebanon prior to the current coalition. In fact, the type of political shiism that we saw emerge in Iran is historically pretty new relative the the more historical apolitical shiism.
I admitted no such thing Poindexter.

Like it or not.......the spiritual leader of 12'er Shia Islam is the Grand Ayatollah who resides in Iran.

That political infighting happens between various Shia groups doesn't negate his leadership position.

Are you a Shiite? ..... :cool:
 

Osomir

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I admitted no such thing Poindexter.
You went from stating that All shia follow Iran to stating that only 12er Shia follow Iran. You directly contradicted yourself/ admitted that your first post was incorrect.

Like it or not.......the spiritual leader of 12'er Shia Islam is the Grand Ayatollah who resides in Iran.
This doesn't have any basis within Jafari fiqh Saying it simply doesn't make it true. Do you have any theological evidence of this?

That political infighting happens between various Shia groups doesn't negate his leadership position.
It rather shows that your assertion that all 12er Shias follow him and Iran is incorrect. Even Iran's neighbors don't necessarily follow Iran; in fact, a 12er Shia state (once again Azerbaijan) is one of Israel's main route into Iran for Mossad agents.

Are you a Shiite?
No.
 

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