Zone1 Should Social Security and Medicare Be Tied to Contributing to Society’s Future Workforce

[Johann]

I’ve been thinking about the long-term sustainability of pay-as-you-go systems like Social Security and Medicare. These programs rely on future generations to fund today’s retirees. But with declining fertility, aging populations, and a low replacement rate, there’s a fundamental problem: without enough children, these systems—and the society that relies on them—cannot survive.





Here’s a thought experiment for discussion:





Proposal:

1. Income Tax:
   • High earners above the median wage face a steep marginal tax rate (e.g., 90%).
   • This rate is reduced by 20% per child, making children a direct way to reduce one’s tax burden.
2. 
   
3. Entitlement Eligibility:
   • Access to Social Security and Medicare requires having at least 3 children.
   • Childless individuals would not automatically receive these benefits.

Rationale:

• Children are the ultimate “investment” in the system—they fund future retirees.
• Social programs are returns on contributing to society’s continuity, not universal entitlements.
• The system aligns personal incentives with societal survival: those who contribute to the future workforce are rewarded, and those who don’t cannot rely on it indefinitely.

Questions for discussion:

• Would a system like this realistically encourage higher fertility?
• What unintended economic or social consequences might arise?
• Could this be implemented in a fair, practical, and legally defensible way?
• Are there alternative mechanisms to achieve the same demographic goals without immigration?

I’m curious to hear constructive feedback from people who can think through the economics, demographics, and incentives realistically.

 

[sparky]

Could this be implemented in a fair, practical, and legally defensible way?

well that's the thing Johann ..........so many of our programs look good on paper......and a decade or so after it's implemented the devil arrives in the details....~S~

 

[sartre play]

There are solutions, we are just not looking for them.

 

[DGS49]

For what it's worth, this population conundrum is exactly what caused Angela Merkel to invite huge numbers of "migrants" into her formerly exemplary country, in an attempt to make them all "Good Germans." Not to put too fine a point on it, it was a bad decision.

Other Western democracies are facing exactly the same dilemma: not enough children to grow up and pay the taxes to fund their generous welfare states. So they bring in foreigners.

In the U.S., our SS funding regime can be solidified with a couple of tweaks, some of which younger Americans will find offensive, but at least they can know that it will be there for them when they retire - and it will. Remove the cap on earnings subject to the FICA tax and you are 90% of the way there.

For those who failed or slept through HS Civics class, SS is unconstitutional, which is why it is NOT FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS, but rather through a "payroll tax" which may not be touched for other expenses.

Don't worry, be happy.

 

[Zincwarrior]

AI and automation are making employee populations moot.

 

[sparky]

So the greying of America can't assume enough worker ants to support it's elders .......i'm starting to miss >>>

their entire mentality was self sufficiency ......

~S~

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

For what it's worth, this population conundrum is exactly what caused Angela Merkel to invite huge numbers of "migrants" into her formerly exemplary country, in an attempt to make them all "Good Germans." Not to put too fine a point on it, it was a bad decision.

Other Western democracies are facing exactly the same dilemma: not enough children to grow up and pay the taxes to fund their generous welfare states. So they bring in foreigners.

In the U.S., our SS funding regime can be solidified with a couple of tweaks, some of which younger Americans will find offensive, but at least they can know that it will be there for them when they retire - and it will. Remove the cap on earnings subject to the FICA tax and you are 90% of the way there.

For those who failed or slept through HS Civics class, SS is unconstitutional, which is why it is NOT FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS, but rather through a "payroll tax" which may not be touched for other expenses.

Don't worry, be happy.

Which SCOTUS decision determined that?

 

[IM2]

So the greying of America can't assume enough worker ants to support it's elders .......i'm starting to miss >>>
View attachment 1199230
their entire mentality was self sufficiency ......

~S~

That is incorrect.

These were people bolstered by a series of government initiatives starting during the FDR presidency. The government created their ability to acquire wealth. Self-sufficiency was helped by the government. The people who were children at that time now are the 70-80 somethings sitting in forums like this one talking about how terrible the government is at everything

 

[Captain Caveman]

I’ve been thinking about the long-term sustainability of pay-as-you-go systems like Social Security and Medicare. These programs rely on future generations to fund today’s retirees. But with declining fertility, aging populations, and a low replacement rate, there’s a fundamental problem: without enough children, these systems—and the society that relies on them—cannot survive.





Here’s a thought experiment for discussion:





Proposal:

1. Income Tax:
   • High earners above the median wage face a steep marginal tax rate (e.g., 90%).
   • This rate is reduced by 20% per child, making children a direct way to reduce one’s tax burden.
2. 
   
3. Entitlement Eligibility:
   • Access to Social Security and Medicare requires having at least 3 children.
   • Childless individuals would not automatically receive these benefits.

Rationale:

• Children are the ultimate “investment” in the system—they fund future retirees.
• Social programs are returns on contributing to society’s continuity, not universal entitlements.
• The system aligns personal incentives with societal survival: those who contribute to the future workforce are rewarded, and those who don’t cannot rely on it indefinitely.

Questions for discussion:

• Would a system like this realistically encourage higher fertility?
• What unintended economic or social consequences might arise?
• Could this be implemented in a fair, practical, and legally defensible way?
• Are there alternative mechanisms to achieve the same demographic goals without immigration?

I’m curious to hear constructive feedback from people who can think through the economics, demographics, and incentives realistically.

Workplace pensions in the UK are a mandatory retirement savings scheme that employers must provide for eligible staff under the Pensions Act 2008. Both the employee and the employer contribute to the fund, which also receives government tax relief. Employers must register a pension with the regulator, when they take an employee on, they're automatically enrolled and they must write to the pension regulator if they want to opt out.

So this system will morph in time, over the decades, to the point where state pensions will be scrapped. Probably the next step will be you can't opt out, then another will be increasing the contribution percentage.

I predict changes to the NHS. For example, miss a doctors appointment, why doesn't the patient get invoiced, say £50. They don't have to pay it, but just means they can't get an appointment until they do. And why not make it Pay As You Go based on the number a appointments/usage. Even if it was just £1 for every visit after say 5 visits in a year, those millions upon millions of vista will add up to a few million. And our government needs to get out of this dreadful PFI that Blair introduced into the NHS. Labour fucked the NHS.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So the greying of America can't assume enough worker ants to support it's elders .......i'm starting to miss >>>
View attachment 1199230
their entire mentality was self sufficiency ......

~S~

My grandfather had 7 children, 3 boys and 4 girls. He was crippled in a farm accident when my father was a teenager in the Great Depression. My father then became the main work for the farm along with his younger brothers. That was the way things worked back then. When he was 20, he and a younger brother left the farm to fight WWII. They left the other teenage brother to run the farm.

 

[sparky]

The people who were children at that time now are the 70-80 somethings sitting in forums like this one talking about how terrible the government is at everything

the gub'mit's job is to regulate IE~ a level playing field , not dictate capitalism in America IM2 .......once they cross that line he inevitable happens every time

And our government needs to get out of this dreadful PFI that Blair introduced into the NHS. Labour fucked the NHS.

what is PFI Cave dude??

~S~

 

[sparky]

My grandfather had 7 children, 3 boys and 4 girls. He was crippled in a farm accident when my father was a teenager in the Great Depression. My father then became the main work for the farm along with his younger brothers. That was the way things worked back then. When he was 20, he and a younger brother left the farm to fight WWII. They left the other teenage brother to run the farm.

well we could trade notes there Admiral......my Gfather was one of 13 siblings, 1/2 of whom came 'over' in the bottom deck of some dilapidated ship, one of whom didn't make it (buried on Elis island) ....., and that's where gramps met Uncle Sam.....who put him in uniform and sent him back (WW1) .......the family joke being the first english we learned was duck! ~S~

 

[IM2]

the gub'mit's job is to regulate IE~ a level playing field , not dictate capitalism in America IM2 .......once they cross that line he inevitable happens every time

what is PFI Cave dude??

~S~

Whatever you want to believe. The government created an uneven playing field from the start and has continued failing to level it basically because of the objections coming from people like you.

 

[Captain Caveman]

what is PFI Cave dude??

~S~

The Private Finance Initiative (PFI) where private companies finance, build, and operate public infrastructure, like schools, hospitals, and roads. So some state owned schools and hospitals were demolished and rebuilt at 6 times their cost with private money. Then the healthcare and education departments rent them at £millions per year. Basically, Labour mortgaged our children's healthcare and education. So £millions that should go on healthcare and education goes in rent. Everything Labour touches in the UK turns to shit. That's why the pre-election prediction of, "It'll take decades to sort Starmers mess", were still suffering from Blair's mess and Starmer is a bigger **** up merchant

 

[sparky]

The government created an uneven playing field from the start and has continued failing to level it basically because of the objections coming from people like you.

classism exists in America IM2......one would think you'd be the first to object......~S~

 

[sparky]

The Private Finance Initiative (PFI) where private companies finance, build, and operate public infrastructure, like schools, hospitals, and roads. So some state owned schools and hospitals were demolished and rebuilt at 6 times their cost with private money. Then the healthcare and education departments rent them at £millions per year. Basically, Labour mortgaged our children's healthcare and education. So £millions that should go on healthcare and education goes in rent. Everything Labour touches in the UK turns to shit. That's why the pre-election prediction of, "It'll take decades to sort Starmers mess", were still suffering from Blair's mess and Starmer is a bigger **** up merchant

Thx Cave dude.......so the private market has been updating (and or financing) your infrastructure , but at some serious $$$$.......

Are all these PFI sorts your countrymen?

~S~

 

[DGS49]

Which SCOTUS decision determined that?

The Supreme Court is not required when the answer is clear, and they are often compromised or bound by inertia (as we will all see shortly when they "punt" on Birthright Citizenship). No one ever accepts my challenge to point out where, in Article I, Congress gets the "power" to create a compulsory retirement system for all Americans. It is simply nowhere to be found.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The Supreme Court is not required when the answer is clear, and they are often compromised or bound by inertia (as we will all see shortly when they "punt" on Birthright Citizenship). No one ever accepts my challenge to point out where, in Article I, Congress gets the "power" to create a compulsory retirement system for all Americans. It is simply nowhere to be found.

Necessary and proper clause covers it. Government 101.

Also, where is it compulsory? I thought you claimed to be a lawyer. Any high school student knows that you do not have to participate in social security if you have some other form of qualified retirement plan. I did not pay into SS for 10 years. My SS benefit is reduced because of that.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Thx Cave dude.......so the private market has been updating (and or financing) your infrastructure , but at some serious $$$$.......

Are all these PFI sorts your countrymen?

~S~

Only some hospitals and some schools were rebuilt under PFI. PFI was John Major's idea, he was an inept Tory PM, and warmonger Blair implemented it.

 

[beagle9]

well that's the thing Johann ..........so many of our programs look good on paper......and a decade or so after it's implemented the devil arrives in the details....~S~

Has nothing to do with the program and it's set up, but everything to do with the theft and outright abuse that has endangered entitled qualified seniors that paid into the system over 40+year's of their lives expecting a return on their investment.

Stealing the money and then coming up with all sorts of excuses and BS formulas in hopes to hide what has taken place against the citizens of this country is shameful.

I think that the money from the tarriffs ought to include a payment to restore the money in the SS program that was outright stolen from the American people. The dodge findings of corruption and fraud that has recovered millions should include a payment back to the SS program after what was stolen from the vulnerable senior citizens.

To attempt to sweep it under the table, and then to contemplate all sorts of formulas that end up suffering either the seniors, the taxpayers or even citizen's who are reaching retirement ages by moving the age to seventy is a huge slap in the face to Americans who done what was expected of them.

The up and coming generation's are the one's who should be outraged at the government's failure to protect the American people and the program's that were created for Americans by a past generation that had good intentions in a nation that had all the indicators of a stable society and government until it wasn't.