Should President Obama Suspend Military Aide to Israel?

[AvgGuyIA]

um because I've discussed this with you and you made your position clear.

The only position I think I've made clear is that I don't think the concept of principled conservatism holds up to closer scrutiny in the sense that extreme partisans change their so-called principles depending on who the principal players are. I see and hear evidence to back up that theory every single day when it comes to this forum and talk radio.

In THIS particular case, the issue as far as I'm concerned is the sanctity of innocent lives. Conservatives always seem to see the loss of innocent lives at the hands of our adversaries as a violation of human dignity and decency. I agree with that. But, as I suspected, in this case since the assault is being waged by Israel, there's no condemnation of Israeli leadership. MY view is the preventable wholesale loss of life of innocent civilians is reprehensible regardless of which side is pulling the trigger. I wouldn't make excuses for Israel doing it just because they're our ally or because of the holocaust because being the victim of an injustice isn't a license to perpetrate one yourself.

Conservatives aren't pacifists. They understand military action is a necessary evil sometimes. It is also understood civilian causalities in times of battle are sometimes unavoidable. Now in this case conservatives are just as outraged by the killing of civilians, they are just pointing the blame in the correct direction, unlike you. No one is making excuses for Israel, because they don't need excuses for doing the right thing. I believe it's you that is overlooking the role Hamas is playing in the death of their own people.

War needs to hurt. Civilians must die. Israel's enemies understand that. That's why their rockets are lobbed into Israel indiscriminately. This fact justifies Israel's reaction.

 

[The Rabbi]

I responded to the poll. But only after I did some research on the subject of aid to Israel to gather some objective evidence before deciding.

The information I needed was found in a 2012 report done by the Congressional Research Service (CRS). It was a real eye opener, and can be viewed here:
http://journalistsresource.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Military-Aid-to-Israel.pdf

I had to go no further than the CRS summary on page 2 to find the information for my decision on the poll.

Findings of significance:

1. "Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II."

In other words, the US taxpayer, as Israel's primary benefactor, has foot a good chunk of change over the last 66 years.

2. The 2012 report went on stating, "To date, the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance."

That average daily aid packet for those first 64 years the US taxpayer has provided to $4.923 million. Oh those poor starving Jewish refugees!

3. Also reported was the future 10-year US aid to Israel. "In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $3 billion military aid package that gradually will raise Israel’s annual Foreign Military Financing grant from a baseline of nearly $2.55 billion in FY2009 to approximately $3.1 billion for FY2013 through FY2018. For FY2013, the Obama Administration is requesting $3.1 billion in FMF to Israel."

That would put the 66 year total, 1948-2014, aid to Israel at somewhere over $121 billion. Those extra two years, 2013 & 2014 bumps the average daily aid packet the US taxpayer has been footing $5.023 million. And that doesn't account for the sums in supplemental aid from Congress like the recent $351 million or that given directly to Israel via the Black Budget. How much infrastructure would that $121+ billion pay for?

So for the poll, this conservative voted to stop further aid to Israel based on the above.

The world OWES Israel, not the other way around. The US makes up the slack, actually, we owe the most for not getting into WWII sooner.

You really must construct a cogent and convincing argument to make that lame duck fly! In an odd quirk in the progression of Karma, the Israelis actually owe the existence of the State of Israel to the victorious US and their allies of WWII and the shrinking of the British Colonial Empire. The cart doesn't pull the horse, does it?

I am not some wacked out fundamentalist who believes that crap in your lead sentence. Nor am I a Brit who believes that BS hang-over from WWII.

Care to convince me that the world owes Israel and how that is connected to the timing of the US entry into WWII?

Because Israel provides the world with timely and correct intelligence on what's going on in the Muslim world. Because Israel supplies doctors and supplies all over the world whenever there is a crisis. Because Israel is the sole democracy in the region. Because Israel proves you don't have to be a dictator nor an ethnic cleanser to have a successful state. Because Israel provides the world with life saving drugs and technologies. Because Israel is the moral touchstone of the world: those who support it are on the right side, those who oppose it are on the wrong side.
But the methodology was flawed. What does it matter if the US gives more aid or less aid to Israel? What does it matter what the cumulative amount is, or the amount per person (which is a ludicrous claim given the 70 years we're talking about)?
Egypt is the second highest recipient. Probably still. Certainly while the Muslim Brotherhood was in charge. Jordan is next and Pakistan after that.
So where would you rather invest your money? With Israel, which has done a lot for the US, or Pakistan, which is basically at war with the US?

 

[The Rabbi]

Only 28 Jews? Well, Hell, I guess its okay for Hamas to fire rickets into Jerusalem proper. Carry on.

The point is clear even if you want to pretend it isn't. While the threat from Hamas rockets exists, it's not an existential threat that warrants an all out military assault which kills hundreds of innocent civilians and destroys thousands of homes.

Well, if that is the standard, no IDF incursion has ever been an existential threat to Palestinians. Of course, this one may well turn out to be to Hamas and/or its ability to attack Israel or Israelis.
Hamas's unguided rockets serve no defensive purpose which is to say they are intended for indiscriminate killing only. Imagine that being fired into Texas by Mexican "freedom fighters" every day.

The Nazis were not an existential threat to the US but that didnt prevent us from firebombing their cities and killing thousands of Germans. Hello?

 

[The Rabbi]

The only position I think I've made clear is that I don't think the concept of principled conservatism holds up to closer scrutiny in the sense that extreme partisans change their so-called principles depending on who the principal players are. I see and hear evidence to back up that theory every single day when it comes to this forum and talk radio.

In THIS particular case, the issue as far as I'm concerned is the sanctity of innocent lives. Conservatives always seem to see the loss of innocent lives at the hands of our adversaries as a violation of human dignity and decency. I agree with that. But, as I suspected, in this case since the assault is being waged by Israel, there's no condemnation of Israeli leadership. MY view is the preventable wholesale loss of life of innocent civilians is reprehensible regardless of which side is pulling the trigger. I wouldn't make excuses for Israel doing it just because they're our ally or because of the holocaust because being the victim of an injustice isn't a license to perpetrate one yourself.

Conservatives aren't pacifists. They understand military action is a necessary evil sometimes. It is also understood civilian causalities in times of battle are sometimes unavoidable. Now in this case conservatives are just as outraged by the killing of civilians, they are just pointing the blame in the correct direction, unlike you. No one is making excuses for Israel, because they don't need excuses for doing the right thing. I believe it's you that is overlooking the role Hamas is playing in the death of their own people.

War needs to hurt. Civilians must due. Israel's enemies understand that. That's why their rockets are lobbed into Israel indiscriminately. This fact justifies Israel's reaction.

Israel is saving civilian lives. The harder they charge into Gaza, the faster they rid the place of Hamas, the sooner the battle will be over, the more lives will be saved. That's how war works.

 

[Geaux4it]

Score one for the good guys

-Geaux


"Scorched Earth": How Israel Converted 40% Of Gaza Into A Wasteland Of Rubble

Moments ago, after weeks of relentless humiliation for John Kerry, Israel and Hamas agreed to yet another 72 hour ceasefire - one which if the previous "ceasefires" are any indication, will be broken within hours if not minutes. Regardless, Kerry, who cobbled this agreement after much "hard work" alongside the UN's Ban Ki-moon, was ecstatic: "We urge all parties to act with restraint until this humanitarian ceasefire begins, and to fully abide by their commitments during the ceasefire," Kerry and Ban said. "This ceasefire is critical to giving innocent civilians a much-needed reprieve from violence."

What Kerry did not say is that the ceasefire is merely an extended occupation by the IDF: as Reuters reported, the ceasefire statement said "forces on the ground will remain in place" during the truce, implying that Israeli ground forces will not withdraw. Which also assures that it is only a matter of time before yet another stray rocket is launched into Israeli fields, before the IDF retaliates by blowing up another school or hospital allegedly housing Hamas rockets, and so on.

However, while this too ceasefire will come and go, something far more insidious is taking place in Gaza : as the Daily Beast reports, "The Israeli military, relentlessly and methodically, is driving people out of the 3-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory."

"Scorched Earth": How Israel Converted 40% Of Gaza Into A Wasteland Of Rubble | Zero Hedge

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Anybody supporting Hamas and accuses Israel for killing children are no different than Nazi KU klux Klanners.

I haven't seen anyone defending Hamas. But Israel IS killing children. That's just a fact.

It is not a fact. Israel is not killing children. What you post is propaganda. Learn the difference.

A large percentage of the deaths are horribly children.

Israel-Gaza conflict: Obama and Pope call for peace as child death toll rises - Telegraph

President Barack Obama has urged Israel to halt the Gaza offensive immediately, as new figures showed that 218 Palestinian children have been killed in the conflict so far.

 

[The Rabbi]

I haven't seen anyone defending Hamas. But Israel IS killing children. That's just a fact.

It is not a fact. Israel is not killing children. What you post is propaganda. Learn the difference.

A large percentage of the deaths are horribly children.

Israel-Gaza conflict: Obama and Pope call for peace as child death toll rises - Telegraph

President Barack Obama has urged Israel to halt the Gaza offensive immediately, as new figures showed that 218 Palestinian children have been killed in the conflict so far.

The Daily Telegraph is pro Arab.
Next.

 

[The Rabbi]

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

The world OWES Israel, not the other way around. The US makes up the slack, actually, we owe the most for not getting into WWII sooner.

You really must construct a cogent and convincing argument to make that lame duck fly! In an odd quirk in the progression of Karma, the Israelis actually owe the existence of the State of Israel to the victorious US and their allies of WWII and the shrinking of the British Colonial Empire. The cart doesn't pull the horse, does it?

I am not some wacked out fundamentalist who believes that crap in your lead sentence. Nor am I a Brit who believes that BS hang-over from WWII.

Care to convince me that the world owes Israel and how that is connected to the timing of the US entry into WWII?

Because Israel provides the world with timely and correct intelligence on what's going on in the Muslim world. Because Israel supplies doctors and supplies all over the world whenever there is a crisis. Because Israel is the sole democracy in the region. Because Israel proves you don't have to be a dictator nor an ethnic cleanser to have a successful state. Because Israel provides the world with life saving drugs and technologies. Because Israel is the moral touchstone of the world: those who support it are on the right side, those who oppose it are on the wrong side.
But the methodology was flawed. What does it matter if the US gives more aid or less aid to Israel? What does it matter what the cumulative amount is, or the amount per person (which is a ludicrous claim given the 70 years we're talking about)?
Egypt is the second highest recipient. Probably still. Certainly while the Muslim Brotherhood was in charge. Jordan is next and Pakistan after that.
So where would you rather invest your money? With Israel, which has done a lot for the US, or Pakistan, which is basically at war with the US?

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

It is not a fact. Israel is not killing children. What you post is propaganda. Learn the difference.

A large percentage of the deaths are horribly children.

Israel-Gaza conflict: Obama and Pope call for peace as child death toll rises - Telegraph

President Barack Obama has urged Israel to halt the Gaza offensive immediately, as new figures showed that 218 Palestinian children have been killed in the conflict so far.

The Daily Telegraph is pro Arab.
Next.

Why would you say children are not being killed?

Hamas, Israel Trade Blame for Deaths of 9 Children - ABC News

The United Nations on Monday called for an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed at least 1,085 Palestinians, 52 Israeli soldiers and three civilians on the Israeli side.

The United Nations says civilians make up more than three-fourths of the dead and a majority of the wounded. Children account for at least 30 percent of the casualties, according to UNICEF, the U.N. children's agency.

 

[The Rabbi]

You really must construct a cogent and convincing argument to make that lame duck fly! In an odd quirk in the progression of Karma, the Israelis actually owe the existence of the State of Israel to the victorious US and their allies of WWII and the shrinking of the British Colonial Empire. The cart doesn't pull the horse, does it?

I am not some wacked out fundamentalist who believes that crap in your lead sentence. Nor am I a Brit who believes that BS hang-over from WWII.

Care to convince me that the world owes Israel and how that is connected to the timing of the US entry into WWII?

Because Israel provides the world with timely and correct intelligence on what's going on in the Muslim world. Because Israel supplies doctors and supplies all over the world whenever there is a crisis. Because Israel is the sole democracy in the region. Because Israel proves you don't have to be a dictator nor an ethnic cleanser to have a successful state. Because Israel provides the world with life saving drugs and technologies. Because Israel is the moral touchstone of the world: those who support it are on the right side, those who oppose it are on the wrong side.
But the methodology was flawed. What does it matter if the US gives more aid or less aid to Israel? What does it matter what the cumulative amount is, or the amount per person (which is a ludicrous claim given the 70 years we're talking about)?
Egypt is the second highest recipient. Probably still. Certainly while the Muslim Brotherhood was in charge. Jordan is next and Pakistan after that.
So where would you rather invest your money? With Israel, which has done a lot for the US, or Pakistan, which is basically at war with the US?

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

You're right. You're merely stupid.
I'll wait for your justification for handing more money to Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan than the uS gives to Israel.

 

[The Rabbi]

A large percentage of the deaths are horribly children.

Israel-Gaza conflict: Obama and Pope call for peace as child death toll rises - Telegraph

The Daily Telegraph is pro Arab.
Next.

Why would you say children are not being killed?

Hamas, Israel Trade Blame for Deaths of 9 Children - ABC News

The United Nations on Monday called for an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed at least 1,085 Palestinians, 52 Israeli soldiers and three civilians on the Israeli side.

The United Nations says civilians make up more than three-fourths of the dead and a majority of the wounded. Children account for at least 30 percent of the casualties, according to UNICEF, the U.N. children's agency.

You understand you just lied, right?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The Daily Telegraph is pro Arab.
Next.

Why would you say children are not being killed?

Hamas, Israel Trade Blame for Deaths of 9 Children - ABC News

The United Nations on Monday called for an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed at least 1,085 Palestinians, 52 Israeli soldiers and three civilians on the Israeli side.

The United Nations says civilians make up more than three-fourths of the dead and a majority of the wounded. Children account for at least 30 percent of the casualties, according to UNICEF, the U.N. children's agency.

You understand you just lied, right?

So you want to correct your statement. That's good.

 

[The Rabbi]

Why would you say children are not being killed?

Hamas, Israel Trade Blame for Deaths of 9 Children - ABC News

You understand you just lied, right?

So you want to correct your statement. That's good.

Maybe you dont understand you lied.
Do you see that? Or do you need me to spell it for you? BEcause even when I do you wont get it.

This is a trait among the less informed I've noticed. It's not just libs, although it seems they're more guilty. Two things that sort of look alike are presumed to be exacltly alike. Differences in wording or phrasing are really meaningless to them. Of course those things are crucial. And Quickquichelorraine just demonstrated why, lying between his two posts.

 

[Indeependent]

You really must construct a cogent and convincing argument to make that lame duck fly! In an odd quirk in the progression of Karma, the Israelis actually owe the existence of the State of Israel to the victorious US and their allies of WWII and the shrinking of the British Colonial Empire. The cart doesn't pull the horse, does it?

I am not some wacked out fundamentalist who believes that crap in your lead sentence. Nor am I a Brit who believes that BS hang-over from WWII.

Care to convince me that the world owes Israel and how that is connected to the timing of the US entry into WWII?

Because Israel provides the world with timely and correct intelligence on what's going on in the Muslim world. Because Israel supplies doctors and supplies all over the world whenever there is a crisis. Because Israel is the sole democracy in the region. Because Israel proves you don't have to be a dictator nor an ethnic cleanser to have a successful state. Because Israel provides the world with life saving drugs and technologies. Because Israel is the moral touchstone of the world: those who support it are on the right side, those who oppose it are on the wrong side.
But the methodology was flawed. What does it matter if the US gives more aid or less aid to Israel? What does it matter what the cumulative amount is, or the amount per person (which is a ludicrous claim given the 70 years we're talking about)?
Egypt is the second highest recipient. Probably still. Certainly while the Muslim Brotherhood was in charge. Jordan is next and Pakistan after that.
So where would you rather invest your money? With Israel, which has done a lot for the US, or Pakistan, which is basically at war with the US?

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

No aid and Israel must obliterate their enemies quickly without mercy.
How will they pay for it?
My friend, there are lots of Jews around the world with shit loads of money and no matter how anti-religious they may be, they want Israel around.

Of course, non-Jewish charities such as The United Way will suffer.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

Because Israel provides the world with timely and correct intelligence on what's going on in the Muslim world. Because Israel supplies doctors and supplies all over the world whenever there is a crisis. Because Israel is the sole democracy in the region. Because Israel proves you don't have to be a dictator nor an ethnic cleanser to have a successful state. Because Israel provides the world with life saving drugs and technologies. Because Israel is the moral touchstone of the world: those who support it are on the right side, those who oppose it are on the wrong side.
But the methodology was flawed. What does it matter if the US gives more aid or less aid to Israel? What does it matter what the cumulative amount is, or the amount per person (which is a ludicrous claim given the 70 years we're talking about)?
Egypt is the second highest recipient. Probably still. Certainly while the Muslim Brotherhood was in charge. Jordan is next and Pakistan after that.
So where would you rather invest your money? With Israel, which has done a lot for the US, or Pakistan, which is basically at war with the US?

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

You're right. You're merely stupid.
I'll wait for your justification for handing more money to Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan than the uS gives to Israel.

Are you proud of that grudge you carry around? And your binary logic of either for or against Israel in all matters for all people based alone on your judgment is what is actually stupid, irrational and sectarian. If you have anything else to say, talk to the hand, you *******

 

[The Rabbi]

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

You're right. You're merely stupid.
I'll wait for your justification for handing more money to Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan than the uS gives to Israel.

Are you proud of that grudge you carry around? And your binary logic of either for or against Israel in all matters for all people based alone on your judgment is what is actually stupid, irrational and sectarian. If you have anything else to say, talk to the hand, you *******

Still waiting on your rationale for why aid to Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan is OK but aid to Israel is not.

 

[Indeependent]

Sorry Rabbi, that's not an argument. It's a political ad with no attempt to disguise what many folks would consider propaganda. I thought from reading a number of your posts you leaned toward reasonableness for the most part, but perhaps I'll amend that estimation down the road.

I don't believe US taxpayers need to continue this largess to a number of other Nations, which includes Israel. Being an occasional ally is no reason for Israel to receive over $5 million per day in military aid from the US taxpayers. If you disagree, that's fine by me.

P.S. Don't try to label me anti-Semitic as you did another. That would be a mistake.

You're right. You're merely stupid.
I'll wait for your justification for handing more money to Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan than the uS gives to Israel.

Are you proud of that grudge you carry around? And your binary logic of either for or against Israel in all matters for all people based alone on your judgment is what is actually stupid, irrational and sectarian. If you have anything else to say, talk to the hand, you *******

Israel is a wonder of modern architecture, both physically and morally.
Try visiting sometime and clear out your head.

 

[percysunshine]

Should President Obama Suspend Military Aide to Israel?

For a guy who ran guns to Mexican drug cartels, now is kind of late to start coming up with standards.

.

 

[AmericanFirst]

You're right. You're merely stupid.
I'll wait for your justification for handing more money to Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan than the uS gives to Israel.

Are you proud of that grudge you carry around? And your binary logic of either for or against Israel in all matters for all people based alone on your judgment is what is actually stupid, irrational and sectarian. If you have anything else to say, talk to the hand, you *******

Still waiting on your rationale for why aid to Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan is OK but aid to Israel is not.

I see you are having fun arguing with a brain dead libtard who can't even lie good. Love it. Libtards are so stupid.