Should Military Leaders be Court Martialed for Disobeying CIC?

[lennypartiv]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

---"I've been associated with the military for over 40 years and I've never seen the discussions that are being had right now, the need for such discussions," says a retired flag officer, currently a defense contractor who has mentored and advised his service's senior leaders. He was granted anonymity in order to speak without fear of reprisal.---

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

 

[WinterBorn]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

---"I've been associated with the military for over 40 years and I've never seen the discussions that are being had right now, the need for such discussions," says a retired flag officer, currently a defense contractor who has mentored and advised his service's senior leaders. He was granted anonymity in order to speak without fear of reprisal.---

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

I have seen things about the military leaders making sure Trump didn't launch nukes, but nothing that says he ordered martial law.

What he wanted and what he ordered are likely two different things.

Also, the military is required to follow lawful orders. Now disobeying an order by calling it "unlawful" would require it be something against the UCMJ and/or the US Constitution. But that would seem to fit here.

 

[22lcidw]

I have seen things about the military leaders making sure Trump didn't launch nukes, but nothing that says he ordered martial law.

What he wanted and what he ordered are likely two different things.

Also, the military is required to follow lawful orders. Now disobeying an order by calling it "unlawful" would require it be something against the UCMJ and/or the US Constitution. But that would seem to fit here.

Trump was more of a man of peace than many Presidents in my lifetime. This one currently has two major hotspots with major nuclear powers involved. And the usual other ones.

 

[WinterBorn]

Trump was more of a man of peace than many Presidents in my lifetime. This one currently has two major hotspots with major nuclear powers involved. And the usual other ones.

That really has no bearing on what I said or on the topic.

 

[Gracie]

It is on topic. Maybe not what you want to hear, though.

 

[Penelope]

Dec 24, 2020

It already has been proven tramp was behind the big lie, and it was before the insurrection that he counted on to thwart the election.

Well, we seen what he could do with the insurrection.

 

[BULLDOG]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

---"I've been associated with the military for over 40 years and I've never seen the discussions that are being had right now, the need for such discussions," says a retired flag officer, currently a defense contractor who has mentored and advised his service's senior leaders. He was granted anonymity in order to speak without fear of reprisal.---

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

Why start such a dumb thread based on a link from a year ago? Trump hasn't been president for about a year, and the military doesn't care what he might say or do.

 

[DGS49]

While the President is the Commander in Chief under Article II, it is unclear whether and to what extent he can issue orders that are immediately binding on those ordered. One supposes that if he were to issue a LEGAL direct order to, say, the Commanding General of the Army (member of the Joint Chiefs), it would be binding.

For example, if he were to order that a branch of the Armed Forces NOT RECOGNIZE the desired status of declared "trans" soldiers - that is to say, if the said soldier has a cock&balls he must serve as a man - that order would be binding on the General or Admiral. But an order that effectively declares or starts a war would be outside the President's Constitutional power, as only Congress can declare war.

The more relevant question is the one of gross disloyalty to the CIC - communicating to a potential adversary that if the President orders something unwise, that order won't be followed...ABSOLUTELY that should result in a court martial. Military officers swear an oath to protect and defend (and so on). Breach of that oath.

 

[WinterBorn]

It is on topic. Maybe not what you want to hear, though.

Marginally on topic, at best.

The topic is whether military leaders should be court martialed for disobeying the CIC. Whether someone thinks Trump was more a man of peace than any recent president has no bearing.

 

[bodecea]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

---"I've been associated with the military for over 40 years and I've never seen the discussions that are being had right now, the need for such discussions," says a retired flag officer, currently a defense contractor who has mentored and advised his service's senior leaders. He was granted anonymity in order to speak without fear of reprisal.---

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

CIC?

 

[g5000]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

---"I've been associated with the military for over 40 years and I've never seen the discussions that are being had right now, the need for such discussions," says a retired flag officer, currently a defense contractor who has mentored and advised his service's senior leaders. He was granted anonymity in order to speak without fear of reprisal.---

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

In the military we were taught to disobey unlawful orders.

Therefore, if Trump gave an unlawful order, it would be incumbent upon the military to not obey.

 

[lennypartiv]

In the military we were taught to disobey unlawful orders.

Therefore, if Trump gave an unlawful order, it would be incumbent upon the military to not obey.

Read the linked article from the original post. The president has powers or "options" that most Americans are not aware of.

 

[g5000]

Read the linked article from the original post. The president has powers or "options" that most Americans are not aware of.

From the article:

A half-dozen officers in similar positions agree that while there is zero chance that the uniformed leadership would involve itself in any scheme to create an election-related reversal, they worry that the military could get sucked into a crisis of Trump's making, particularly if the president tries to rally private militias and pro-Trump paramilitaries in an effort to disrupt the transition and bring violence to the capital.

Fairly prescient.

 

[task0778]

There have been rumors that after the election was stolen by Biden, Trump was having discussions about special military actions to prevent Biden from taking over and completing the coup. If the rumors are true, it may also be true that military leader refused to follow order from Trump, the CIC. Should those military leaders be court martialed?

Military members from the lowest private to the highest admiral or general are not supposed to blindly follow orders, we learned that from the LT. Calley trial back in the Vietnam days. An illegal order cannot and should not be obeyed, but the onus is on the individual receiving the order to make that call. If the order is determined to be a legal one, then you are disobeying a lawful order and it's your ass. At best your career is over, and at worst in a time and place of war, you could be imprisoned or maybe even executed. And of course if it's an illegal order and you do it anyway, then again it's your ass.

That said, if it's true that Trump was talking to people about military actions to prevent Biden from taking office, then the responsibility is on those military leaders to tell him that is an illegal order (which IMHO it is) and they will not comply. Leadership has it's privileges but it also has greater responsibilities, and one of them is that you don't put your people into situations where they have to make a call that you should've already made. Sadly, and human nature being what it is, admirals and generals and presidents do not always live up to the written and unwritten responsibilities of their office, nor do they always follow the letter of the law.

SO - if Trump had actually ordered someone to perform one of those special military actions, then in my view it would be incumbent on that person to refuse the order. In this country we do not do coup d'etats. I do not believe in that instance that anyone would face a court-martial for refusing that order. BUT, if the person follows that order and does it, then I would expect that person to face charges of treason and conspiracy.

NOTE - we are talking about rumors here, with no basis in fact that I know of. We should not be making any judgements on Trump or anyone else without some evidence to support that judgement. It may be that Trump might've been asking questions; but that's a long way from making any decisions or doing anything. IOW, this is all strawman stuff.