Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[HistoryBefore67]

The UN is a joke. African and Asian countries can engage in clear acts of genocide, but if Israel approves an apartment building on a barren parcel of land claimed by the "Palestinians," that goes to the top of its agenda.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

I have no idea what that post is supposed to mean......

Nor do I have any idea what QW's post is supposed to mean, but you quoted it. Maybe you should ask the troll; he already knows I have him on ignore and yet remains very preoccupied with me.

That is a new definition of 'troll' with which I was previously unfamiliar. Seems to me that the one calling 'troll' was admiring his own reflection and got confused.......

Some people here are hellbent on getting every thread an "enemy" posts in moved to the rubber room. Don't get sucked into this cult. A few rep points are simply not worth it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Considering that three major religions claim holy sites there?

No.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Not only do I disagree with the premise of the titular question, I disagree with its wording. As phrased, it suggests that the status of Jerusalem is an issue to be imposed from the outside upon Israel. Its not. Jerusalem - undivided - is part of sovereign Israel. This is true regardless of the opinions or protests of any other nation.

Israel need not explain, persuade, coerce, or apologize to anyone for its stance on Jerusalem. It is, was, and will be the capital of Israel.

 

[Trajan]

You first. "Where did YOU learn to count?"

I have no idea what that post is supposed to mean......

Nor do I have any idea what QW's post is supposed to mean, but you quoted it. Maybe you should ask the troll; he already knows I have him on ignore and yet remains very preoccupied with me.

whatever, and you asked me to defend a decision, what decision is that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Roudy -

Yeah right, last I checked the UN was considered to be a joke.

I can not imagine who you checked with who would reduce the activities of an organisation involved in everything from election monitoring and promoting democracy, to vaccines to fresh water to promoting womens' rights to peacekeeping and from mosquito control to safeguarding cultural treasures as "a joke".

No one is going to consider UNICEF, WHO, UNIMOG and UNOSOM in the same breath, when they are involved in entirely different areas and in different parts of the world. They have virtually nothing in common.

Within UN Peacekeeping alone there have been more than 70 missions. There have been 15 - 20 missions in the Middle East alone. One or two of those have been failures, but a good fifty of them have been very significant successes, and I would count UNIFIL and UNDOF amongst them.

If you would not, by all means explain why not.

He probably checked with the women and children the UN "Peacekeepers" raped. I am sure you read a book about how wonderful they are though, which absolutely trumps anything anyone else has to say.

 

[Trajan]

I have to say thats the first time I have heard that Israel controls anything at the UN, aside from us as a proxy veto, they get hammered routinely.

At the UN they do, because they are outnumbered by the Arab lobby, but only on issues on which the EU countries abstain or vote against Israel.

Should Israel present a viable peace plan at UN level for some reason, it would automatically have the support of the 28 EU nations, plus those of most of the rest of the western world.

Although the EU is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, the EU also hasa strong Jewish lobby, and will always support Israel's existance.

Palestine simply does not have the networks, lobbyists or influence that Israel has in London, Paris, Berlin or Rome - let alone Washington.

sppting Israels existence is a no brainer, I hardly think they require credit for that frankly, especially since France and Britain at al are responsible to a large extent for the borders etc. and a lot of the mess there after sykes-picot etc.

and if I recall the UN voted for Non-Member Observer State status for the Palestinians assistant vehement US objections, a move I to thought short sighted, France et al would not back off, so theres that.

 

[Kondor3]

Although the UN does much good work with respect to Relief and Education and Health and Advocacy, it is a Toothless Old Woman when it comes to military matters, and everybody knows it. Let's not kid ourselves.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

In actual fact, there is very little waste these days in organisations such as the WHO, UNICEF or UNESCO. Some, perhaps, but in general it is not a major issue. And I based that on discussions with people who work for organisations both within and outside the UN, such as CARE and STC.

Preventing wars and genocides and promoting peace, their record is dismal and in many cases they have made things worse.

I mentioned earlier that the UN has run 70 missions based on peacekeeping, and in that list I see 2 or 3 that I would consider failures for one reason or another.

I see about 50 I would consider successes and UNIFIL is one of them.

How has UNIFIL made things worse? How about UNDOF?

Are you actually familiar with their work, or do you simply oppose them because they are run by the UN?

So what you're saying is that the UN has done good work keeping the peace and preventing wars? Lets see, brief recap of the UN's handiwork in the last 30 years: Iranian hostage crisis, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Iran / Iraq War, Lebanon civil war, Afghanistan civil war, Pakistan India crisis', N. Korea crisis', Syria / Hezbollah takeover of Lebanon and assassination of Lebanese leader, US invasion of Iraq, US invasion of Afghanistan, Syrian civil war, Rwanda, Somalia, Darfur, etc.

Wow Saigon, dude, the UN has done such a great job of preventing these conflicts, and MILLIONS of innocent people dying unnecessarily, hasn't it?

Just tell me what you're smoking, 'cause I really want sum of dat! Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

I have to say thats the first time I have heard that Israel controls anything at the UN, aside from us as a proxy veto, they get hammered routinely.

At the UN they do, because they are outnumbered by the Arab lobby, but only on issues on which the EU countries abstain or vote against Israel.

Should Israel present a viable peace plan at UN level for some reason, it would automatically have the support of the 28 EU nations, plus those of most of the rest of the western world.

Although the EU is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, the EU also hasa strong Jewish lobby, and will always support Israel's existance.

Palestine simply does not have the networks, lobbyists or influence that Israel has in London, Paris, Berlin or Rome - let alone Washington.

sppting Israels existence is a no brainer, I hardly think they require credit for that frankly, especially since France and Britain at al are responsible to a large extent for the borders etc. and a lot of the mess there after sykes-picot etc.

and if I recall the UN voted for Non-Member Observer State status for the Palestinians assistant vehement US objections, a move I to thought short sighted, France et al would not back off, so theres that.

Yes, and don't forget most of these countries and entities that claim to believe in Israel's right to exist on the one hand, on the other expect Israel to agree to terms and conditions that will effectively bring about its destruction. All in the name of "peace", why of course.

 

[freedombecki]

Not only do I disagree with the premise of the titular question, I disagree with its wording. As phrased, it suggests that the status of Jerusalem is an issue to be imposed from the outside upon Israel. Its not. Jerusalem - undivided - is part of sovereign Israel. This is true regardless of the opinions or protests of any other nation.

Israel need not explain, persuade, coerce, or apologize to anyone for its stance on Jerusalem. It is, was, and will be the capital of Israel.

[ame=http://youtu.be/wEPZ1ef2g_A]Ernest Gold: "Exodus" (1960) - Original Main Theme - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Not only do I disagree with the premise of the titular question, I disagree with its wording. As phrased, it suggests that the status of Jerusalem is an issue to be imposed from the outside upon Israel. Its not. Jerusalem - undivided - is part of sovereign Israel. This is true regardless of the opinions or protests of any other nation.

Israel need not explain, persuade, coerce, or apologize to anyone for its stance on Jerusalem. It is, was, and will be the capital of Israel.

[ame=http://youtu.be/wEPZ1ef2g_A]Ernest Gold: "Exodus" (1960) - Original Main Theme - YouTube[/ame]

From Exodus: This land is mine, G-d gave this land to me, this brave and ancient land to me.
From Joseph, by Andrew Lloyd Webber: Children of Israel are never alone, because G-d has promised us a land of our own.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

Yeah right, last I checked the UN was considered to be a joke.

I can not imagine who you checked with who would reduce the activities of an organisation involved in everything from election monitoring and promoting democracy, to vaccines to fresh water to promoting womens' rights to peacekeeping and from mosquito control to safeguarding cultural treasures as "a joke".

No one is going to consider UNICEF, WHO, UNIMOG and UNOSOM in the same breath, when they are involved in entirely different areas and in different parts of the world. They have virtually nothing in common.

Within UN Peacekeeping alone there have been more than 70 missions. There have been 15 - 20 missions in the Middle East alone. One or two of those have been failures, but a good fifty of them have been very significant successes, and I would count UNIFIL and UNDOF amongst them.

If you would not, by all means explain why not.

He probably checked with the women and children the UN "Peacekeepers" raped. I am sure you read a book about how wonderful they are though, which absolutely trumps anything anyone else has to say.

Lets not forget the "wisdom" of the UN when they recently elected countries like LIBYA, SYRIA, and Saudi Arabia, to the HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL! Ha ha ha. That's like electing a KKK leader like David Duke to lead an anti racism committee.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Roudy -

I can not imagine who you checked with who would reduce the activities of an organisation involved in everything from election monitoring and promoting democracy, to vaccines to fresh water to promoting womens' rights to peacekeeping and from mosquito control to safeguarding cultural treasures as "a joke".

No one is going to consider UNICEF, WHO, UNIMOG and UNOSOM in the same breath, when they are involved in entirely different areas and in different parts of the world. They have virtually nothing in common.

Within UN Peacekeeping alone there have been more than 70 missions. There have been 15 - 20 missions in the Middle East alone. One or two of those have been failures, but a good fifty of them have been very significant successes, and I would count UNIFIL and UNDOF amongst them.

If you would not, by all means explain why not.

He probably checked with the women and children the UN "Peacekeepers" raped. I am sure you read a book about how wonderful they are though, which absolutely trumps anything anyone else has to say.

Lets not forget the "wisdom" of the UN when they recently elected countries like LIBYA, SYRIA, and Saudi Arabia, to the HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL! Ha ha ha. That's like electing a KKK leader like David Duke to lead an anti racism committee.

Or electing a Democrat to fix the economy.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

I have no idea what that post is supposed to mean......

Nor do I have any idea what QW's post is supposed to mean, but you quoted it. Maybe you should ask the troll; he already knows I have him on ignore and yet remains very preoccupied with me.

whatever, and you asked me to defend a decision, what decision is that?

You can start by explaining how you decided the "right of conquest" applies when Israel had Jerusalem handed to it in '48...

 

[MHunterB]

Probably '67 - when the Israelis took back the portion the Jordanians had invaded and over-run -and then ethnically cleansed of its original Jewish inhabitants.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Nor do I have any idea what QW's post is supposed to mean, but you quoted it. Maybe you should ask the troll; he already knows I have him on ignore and yet remains very preoccupied with me.

whatever, and you asked me to defend a decision, what decision is that?

You can start by explaining how you decided the "right of conquest" applies when Israel had Jerusalem handed to it in '48...

What are you talking about? The Partition Plan called for Jerusalem to become an international city. The Arabs rejected this, and decided that Jerusalem's fate would be decided by military action. As a result, Isreal captured "West Jerusalem" in 1948, and "East Jerusalem" in 1967.

When and how did Israel have Jerusalem "handed to it"?

 

[toastman]

Roudy -

I can not imagine who you checked with who would reduce the activities of an organisation involved in everything from election monitoring and promoting democracy, to vaccines to fresh water to promoting womens' rights to peacekeeping and from mosquito control to safeguarding cultural treasures as "a joke".

No one is going to consider UNICEF, WHO, UNIMOG and UNOSOM in the same breath, when they are involved in entirely different areas and in different parts of the world. They have virtually nothing in common.

Within UN Peacekeeping alone there have been more than 70 missions. There have been 15 - 20 missions in the Middle East alone. One or two of those have been failures, but a good fifty of them have been very significant successes, and I would count UNIFIL and UNDOF amongst them.

If you would not, by all means explain why not.

He probably checked with the women and children the UN "Peacekeepers" raped. I am sure you read a book about how wonderful they are though, which absolutely trumps anything anyone else has to say.

Lets not forget the "wisdom" of the UN when they recently elected countries like LIBYA, SYRIA, and Saudi Arabia, to the HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL! Ha ha ha. That's like electing a KKK leader like David Duke to lead an anti racism committee.

Did you know that the Jew hating scumbag SS Major David Duke actually considered running for president once haha :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88AsArwYsTc]David Duke for President? -- It's up to You! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wonky Pundit]

whatever, and you asked me to defend a decision, what decision is that?

You can start by explaining how you decided the "right of conquest" applies when Israel had Jerusalem handed to it in '48...

What are you talking about? The Partition Plan called for Jerusalem to become an international city. The Arabs rejected this, and decided that Jerusalem's fate would be decided by military action. As a result, Isreal captured "West Jerusalem" in 1948, and "East Jerusalem" in 1967.

When and how did Israel have Jerusalem "handed to it"?

And that's such a horrible idea today because.....?

Please, no discussion of "God" or a "promised land" in your answer. Appealing to religion is an excuse to throw any long-term peace plan out the window.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

You can start by explaining how you decided the "right of conquest" applies when Israel had Jerusalem handed to it in '48...

What are you talking about? The Partition Plan called for Jerusalem to become an international city. The Arabs rejected this, and decided that Jerusalem's fate would be decided by military action. As a result, Isreal captured "West Jerusalem" in 1948, and "East Jerusalem" in 1967.

When and how did Israel have Jerusalem "handed to it"?

And that's such a horrible idea today because.....?

Please, no discussion of "God" or a "promised land" in your answer. Appealing to religion is an excuse to throw any long-term peace plan out the window.

I'm guessing that you're someone's little brother.

Why?

Because when little brothers lose, they cry "do over!"

Unfortunately, the "do over" concept does not apply here. If the Arabs had accepted the Partition Plan, Jerusalem would be an international city today. Instead, they rejected the plan and attempted to take everything for themselves. They lost. You don't get a "do over" under those circumstances.