Should God's Law be the Law of the Land?

[Hollie]

When I see a post like that, I actually feel pity for the unsaved. It's so dark, so narrow, and conflicts directly with every good thing that man is or could ever hope to be.

No you don't need a book to survive. You need the book, however, to live beyond the scope of your sadly restricted mind and your sinful, depraved and decaying body.

You're so blind, though, you don't even realize how pathetic man is, when he is without God. Without God, man is no better than an animal, and man has no redeeming characteristics.

Here we see the self-loathing that so often defines the hyper-religious.

From the rational point of view, the fundie cannot withstand a world wherein humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by the gods, and that human progress is inherently evil, base, hindered, impossible to be moral without guidance of the father figure. The fundie is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but garbage in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maldjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

“That man is inherently sinful”, is a misleading term. “Sin” infers a theistic framework and honestly, I would hesitate to use the gods of the bibles as a benchmark for what is sinful and what is not. They are clearly lacking in terms of being the models for human existence.

The most basic rule of human sociality is non-zero-sum: no free lunch, scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, reciprocity. This is because a society made up of cheaters will (obviously) become fraught with suspicion, distrust, and peril, and will eventually fall apart. So we come to a consensus, a social contract that we all agree to live by under threat of punishment (also agreed upon by the group), and viola relative—law, order, and stability. This is the template upon which all patterns of human society are formed. Here in the West, we've progressed through theocratic totalitarianism to liberal democracy. Thank goodness.


We are a mixture of selfishness and cooperation and it serves us pretty well. Most people do behave morally.

 

[Foxfyre]

Us people? What people am I a part of in your perception?

Do I have to continue to explain that I have made an observation based on inference? Keep asking for a list of people who specifically are calling for a "theocracy" and you miss the point. Evangelicals are very keen on the "Christian nation" premise. They talk about it frequently. The U.S. is a Christian nation, we have always been a Christian nation, and so on. This suggests that evangelical Christians would welcome and be right at home in a Christian theocracy, and that is exactly what I base my observation on. You are perfectly at liberty to disagree with that observation.

Thanks for your reasonable approach to discussion of this topic, your civility, and for being pretty likable.

But here, I believe your perception and inferences drawn from it are in serious error. When I say that the USA was founded on Christian principles, I mean that the 'secular' government the Founders gave us was nevertheless based on those Christian principles; i.e. that our rights come from God and no church authority (Pope) or civil authority (monarch or other authoritarian government) would have any ability to take those away from us.

In earlier posts you 'inferred' that the Founders were not especially religious. Perhaps you see them more as yourself. And yet we have a lot of evidence that they were devout believers and most were convinced the Constitution and the new nation would survive only in the care of other believers who lived their Christian faith. Many Christians today hold that same opinion; not because the Founders taught that principle, but because their faith informs them of that truth as they see it.

And more than a few believe that when we dismiss or reject God's law as the way we should conduct our government, our busineses, and our personal lives, that we also reject God's help and protection. We ignore God's law at our peril.

And not one of these--nor any of these concepts--suggests that we have or should be a theocracy in the USA. In fact a theocracy would negate the whole concept.

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Thanks for your reasonable approach to discussion of this topic, your civility, and for being pretty likable.

But here, I believe your perception and inferences drawn from it are in serious error. When I say that the USA was founded on Christian principles, I mean that the 'secular' government the Founders gave us was nevertheless based on those Christian principles; i.e. that our rights come from God and no church authority (Pope) or civil authority (monarch or other authoritarian government) would have any ability to take those away from us.

In earlier posts you 'inferred' that the Founders were not especially religious. Perhaps you see them more as yourself. And yet we have a lot of evidence that they were devout believers and most were convinced the Constitution and the new nation would survive only in the care of other believers who lived their Christian faith. Many Christians today hold that same opinion; not because the Founders taught that principle, but because their faith informs them of that truth as they see it.

And more than a few believe that when we dismiss or reject God's law as the way we should conduct our government, our busineses, and our personal lives, that we also reject God's help and protection. We ignore God's law at our peril.

And not one of these--nor any of these concepts--suggests that we have or should be a theocracy in the USA. In fact a theocracy would negate the whole concept.

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

The above might be an interesting topic of discussion at a cocktail party but outside of the context of Constitutional case law is legally irrelevant.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

The above might be an interesting topic of discussion at a cocktail party but outside of the context of Constitutional case law is legally irrelevant.

We aren't discussing Constitutonal case law or any other legal interpretations all of which are indeed irrelevent to the topic of this thread.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Thanks for your reasonable approach to discussion of this topic, your civility, and for being pretty likable.

But here, I believe your perception and inferences drawn from it are in serious error. When I say that the USA was founded on Christian principles, I mean that the 'secular' government the Founders gave us was nevertheless based on those Christian principles; i.e. that our rights come from God and no church authority (Pope) or civil authority (monarch or other authoritarian government) would have any ability to take those away from us.

In earlier posts you 'inferred' that the Founders were not especially religious. Perhaps you see them more as yourself. And yet we have a lot of evidence that they were devout believers and most were convinced the Constitution and the new nation would survive only in the care of other believers who lived their Christian faith. Many Christians today hold that same opinion; not because the Founders taught that principle, but because their faith informs them of that truth as they see it.

And more than a few believe that when we dismiss or reject God's law as the way we should conduct our government, our busineses, and our personal lives, that we also reject God's help and protection. We ignore God's law at our peril.

And not one of these--nor any of these concepts--suggests that we have or should be a theocracy in the USA. In fact a theocracy would negate the whole concept.

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

There's no point in verifying the authenticity of your quotes. I'm sure they are all perfectly verifiable.

I will even go so far as so support, indirectly, some of this ideology with a source that is not specifically Christian or evangelical.

I am fond of the work of Carl Jung. Carl Jung wasn't a Christian voice, but he was considered to have some elements of a mystic in some ways.

As a psychoanalyst, Jung recognized that human beings have a religious compulsion, and instinctual drive to worship, or at least to regard a higher power. He studied religion intensely and concluded that human beings have a spiritual purpose beyond material goals, a need to discover and fulfill our innate potential. He held that this drive cannot be eliminated. To deny it one must displace it with something else that will hold his or her adoration. In my belief the founders in many of the quotes above are expressing this very conviction as it pertains to Christianity and to religion in general.

His views on the state fall in line with this concept. Those who quell their spiritual drive frequently displace their adoration onto the state, which is treated as "a quasi-animate personality from whom everything is expected," and which "swallowed up their religious forces." The state then takes the place of God. He held that mass society dislocating this religious drive tends to result in the same fanaticism of the church-states of the Dark Ages, and that the "Brass bands, flags, banners, parades and monster demonstrations are no different in principle from ecclesiastical processions, cannonades and fire to scare off demons."

Now, this does not exactly paint a flattering picture of the old church-states either, but my primary point is that here is a mind of the European intelligentsia of the early 20th Century which was so ideologically distinct from American ideologies, and he recognized clearly the religious drive of humanity, and that to dislocate it, it must be replaced by something, which is typically a dependence on and adoration for the state. This is a brilliant observation that tends to bear out, as atheists tend to fall into liberal Democratic ideologies who frequently demonstrate this adoration for the state.

Finally, a point that I think most positive atheists miss when they point out that deism was one of the influences of the founders, is that deism is not atheism. Deism is also not agnosticism. Deism holds absolutely that there is a deity, a higher power, an omniscient spiritual force, but simply refuses to define this power by the standards of revealed religion, or insist that God reveals himself to a select few, which serves to confound and confuse humanity with vagary. I'm painting a positive picture of deism, mostly because I identify myself with the belief in most regards, only that I do not hold religion in as much disdain as most hardcore deists do. My point in bringing it up is that atheists should probably not try to associate themselves too closely with the founders, as even the deist beliefs that some held are contrary to atheist positions.

My own problems with religion have little to do with the founders or what spiritual beliefs guided their lives. I admire them for reasons deeper than any kind of direct religious connection. This admiration is what confuses me so much about why so much energy is wasted on trying to prove that they were guided by God or were anti-religious. It misses the greater significance of what they established from their circumstances.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

There's no point in verifying the authenticity of your quotes. I'm sure they are all perfectly verifiable.

I will even go so far as so support, indirectly, some of this ideology with a source that is not specifically Christian or evangelical.

I am fond of the work of Carl Jung. Carl Jung wasn't a Christian voice, but he was considered to have some elements of a mystic in some ways.

As a psychoanalyst, Jung recognized that human beings have a religious compulsion, and instinctual drive to worship, or at least to regard a higher power. He studied religion intensely and concluded that human beings have a spiritual purpose beyond material goals, a need to discover and fulfill our innate potential. He held that this drive cannot be eliminated. To deny it one must displace it with something else that will hold his or her adoration. In my belief the founders in many of the quotes above are expressing this very conviction as it pertains to Christianity and to religion in general.

His views on the state fall in line with this concept. Those who quell their spiritual drive frequently displace their adoration onto the state, which is treated as "a quasi-animate personality from whom everything is expected," and which "swallowed up their religious forces." The state then takes the place of God. He held that mass society dislocating this religious drive tends to result in the same fanaticism of the church-states of the Dark Ages, and that the "Brass bands, flags, banners, parades and monster demonstrations are no different in principle from ecclesiastical processions, cannonades and fire to scare off demons."

Now, this does not exactly paint a flattering picture of the old church-states either, but my primary point is that here is a mind of the European intelligentsia of the early 20th Century which was so ideologically distinct from American ideologies, and he recognized clearly the religious drive of humanity, and that to dislocate it, it must be replaced by something, which is typically a dependence on and adoration for the state. This is a brilliant observation that tends to bear out, as atheists tend to fall into liberal Democratic ideologies who frequently demonstrate this adoration for the state.

Finally, a point that I think most positive atheists miss when they point out that deism was one of the influences of the founders, is that deism is not atheism. Deism is also not agnosticism. Deism holds absolutely that there is a deity, a higher power, an omniscient spiritual force, but simply refuses to define this power by the standards of revealed religion, or insist that God reveals himself to a select few, which serves to confound and confuse humanity with vagary. I'm painting a positive picture of deism, mostly because I identify myself with the belief in most regards, only that I do not hold religion in as much disdain as most hardcore deists do. My point in bringing it up is that atheists should probably not try to associate themselves too closely with the founders, as even the deist beliefs that some held are contrary to atheist positions.

My own problems with religion have little to do with the founders or what spiritual beliefs guided their lives. I admire them for reasons deeper than any kind of direct religious connection. This admiration is what confuses me so much about why so much energy is wasted on trying to prove that they were guided by God or were anti-religious. It misses the greater significance of what they established from their circumstances.

Interesting hypothesis. But whatever greater significance other than their religious views the Founders gave us, the context of this thread is whether God's Law should be the law of the land. And as I have been attempting to illustrate using the Founders' own words--and yes, every one of those quotations is properly annotated with its sources shown though we can always argue they are taken out of their full context--but in their own words, the Founders, almost to a man, were convinced that a nation that was not conscious of and obedient to God's laws, would not persevere.

At the same time, they would not give the federal government authority or ability to dictate what the interpretation of God's law would be.

Deism by the way, boiled down to its most essential element, is a belief in God as Creator and author of the universe--the one who set it all in motion--but a God who is not involved with or engaged in a personal relationship with humankind or interferes with or intervenes in what happens. You can draw your own conclusions whether the Founders did or did not include themselves in that defintion.

As for Carl Jung, unlike other philosophers such as Sigmund Freud and Ninian Smart, while he himself likely subscribed to no religious faith, he was more kind to the spiritual and religious than the others. He did not consider any religion flawless, by any means, but he was big on allowing people to believe and could accept that it could be beneficial to them to do so. And he didn't think it important to be associated with any particular doctrine or church denomination in order to be spiritual.

The main problem with Jungian religious philosophy, is that Jung did not believe in promoting good over evil, but rather blending light with the darkness to create a whole. In that sense he has been described as 'neo-Gnostic', something else the Founders would not have embraced or endorsed.

Again, the Founders believed that a religious, most especially Christian, and moral people would use the Constitution to create a great nation and the Constitution would not work in any other system.

 

[t_polkow]

Thanks for your reasonable approach to discussion of this topic, your civility, and for being pretty likable.

But here, I believe your perception and inferences drawn from it are in serious error. When I say that the USA was founded on Christian principles, I mean that the 'secular' government the Founders gave us was nevertheless based on those Christian principles; i.e. that our rights come from God and no church authority (Pope) or civil authority (monarch or other authoritarian government) would have any ability to take those away from us.

In earlier posts you 'inferred' that the Founders were not especially religious. Perhaps you see them more as yourself. And yet we have a lot of evidence that they were devout believers and most were convinced the Constitution and the new nation would survive only in the care of other believers who lived their Christian faith. Many Christians today hold that same opinion; not because the Founders taught that principle, but because their faith informs them of that truth as they see it.

And more than a few believe that when we dismiss or reject God's law as the way we should conduct our government, our busineses, and our personal lives, that we also reject God's help and protection. We ignore God's law at our peril.

And not one of these--nor any of these concepts--suggests that we have or should be a theocracy in the USA. In fact a theocracy would negate the whole concept.

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

Most of the founding fathers were deists not christers

Thomas Jefferson: "The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes
to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the
caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and
hypocrites."


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"When we see religion split into so many thousands of sects, and I may say Christianity
itself divided into it's thousands also, who are disputing, anathematizing, and where the
laws permit, burning and torturing one another for abstractions which no one of them
understand, and which are indeed beyond the comprehension of the human mind, into
which of the chambers of this Bedlam would a man wish to thrust himself. The sum of all
religion as expressed by it's best preacher, "fear god and love thy neighbor,' contains
no mystery, needs no explanation - but this wont do. It gives no scope to make dupes;
priests could not live by it."
..........Letter to George Logan, November 12, 1816


Ben Franklin :

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758


Thomas Paine

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me
no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize
power and profit."


"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the
Bible)."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall
find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The
primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it
on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the
Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell
into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
..........From the "Treaty of Tripoli" which was signed during the term of George Washington
and ratified by congress during the term of John Adams.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're pretty likable yourself.

Your idea that I see the founders as like myself is interesting. I don't exactly feel that way. I admire the founders as well beyond myself, but I think I get your point. It feeds into another post I made earlier in either this thread or another going on with a similar theme.

While I understand that they were influenced by a number of things, to include things like their faith and The Enlightenment and classical liberalism, it seems theists and atheists alike find it exceedingly important to attach their beliefs to the founders. I think I understand why. In the scope of human history, the U.S. has been a shining light to the world in many ways. It's only natural to want to be a part of all that good shit. I think there is a psychological need being served that is not dissimilar to pride in one's cultural heritage.

I don't doubt that somebody will ask me for some kind of link or evidence to this observation, but I suspect you will take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:

“There was a consensus among the Founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government,” says Daniel Dreisbach, professor of law, justice and American society at American University. “The Founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner, and thereby promote social order and political stability.”1

Take the nation’s first president. In his first inaugural address, George Washington said that “the propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”2

In his farewell address, Washington sounded the same note: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim that tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.”3

Or take the second president. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people,” John Adams declared. “It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”4

Quotes from our Founding Fathersare replete with references to faith, God’s sovereignty, Jesus Christ and Christianity, as well as to the Bible and its role in the maintaining of order, ethics and morality. Succeeding generations also echoed their themes. As Daniel Webster succinctly put it in 1820: “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”5

Today, there are some — mainly on the Left — who paint the Founders not as Christians but as Deists, believers in an impersonal creator who left his creations to fend for themselves. But while that description fits less than a handful of the Founders, to varying degrees, it clearly doesn’t fit the vast majority.

Of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution, “with no more than five exceptions, they were orthodox members of one of the established congregations,” wrote the late University of Dallas historian M.E. Bradford.6 “References made by the Framers to Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Son of God … are commonplace in their private papers, correspondence and public remarks — and in the early records of their lives.”7

And this wasn’t just lip service, Bradford noted: The faith the Framers professed played a large role in their lives.
The Founders? Faith | CitizenLink

And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

Most of the founding fathers were deists not christers

Thomas Jefferson: "The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes
to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the
caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and
hypocrites."


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"When we see religion split into so many thousands of sects, and I may say Christianity
itself divided into it's thousands also, who are disputing, anathematizing, and where the
laws permit, burning and torturing one another for abstractions which no one of them
understand, and which are indeed beyond the comprehension of the human mind, into
which of the chambers of this Bedlam would a man wish to thrust himself. The sum of all
religion as expressed by it's best preacher, "fear god and love thy neighbor,' contains
no mystery, needs no explanation - but this wont do. It gives no scope to make dupes;
priests could not live by it."
..........Letter to George Logan, November 12, 1816


Ben Franklin :

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758


Thomas Paine

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me
no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize
power and profit."


"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the
Bible)."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall
find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The
primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it
on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the
Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell
into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
..........From the "Treaty of Tripoli" which was signed during the term of George Washington
and ratified by congress during the term of John Adams.

You can place the quotations I used into their full context without changing the intended meaning one bit. I daresay you cannot do that with most of the quotations you cite.

Let's just look at the last one.

In 1797, six years after the adoption of the Bill of Rights, in Article 11 of a treaty with the Muslim nation of Tripoli, the words you quoted appear and were included as a reassurance to those Muslims that there was no intent to force Christianity upon them. Article 11 was dropped roughly a decade later.

Evemso, a fair person will acknowledge that not being founded on the Christian religion--which our government was not--is not the same thing at all as being founded on Christian principles, which our government was according to those who hammed out the Constitution they gave us.

And other quotations attributed to Thomas Paine, who never described himself as a Deist but was probably the one of our Founders who was closest to that philosophy. He did reject Chrisianity. He did not reject relgiious faith:

"How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."

And again, in The Age of Reason:

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy."

And attributed to him when he realized he was dying:
"The opinions I have advanced ... are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath of God, and of salvation, by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions, dishonorable to the wisdom and power of the Almighty; that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues – and that it was upon this only (so far as religion is concerned) that I rested all my hopes of happiness hereafter. So say I now – and so help me God."

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Flying Spaghetti Monster? Really? It was mildly amusing and refreshing when it was first presented, and made an interesting point, but has since become an shallow symbol for those that need icons to represent their opinions.

Your observation is extremely narrow. I am familiar with all of these quotes, and indeed they represent the influence of deism and The Enlightenment of the time, but they are far from representative of the founders as a whole. A handful of some of the prominent founders were certainly influenced by deism, but Thomas Paine was the only clearly defined, self-proclaimed deist. The majority of those involved in the drafting of the Constitution and the establishment of our infant government had Christian affiliations. The degree to which this faith was held varied certainly.

Be that as it may, what does it matter or prove? Your insistence that the founders were predominantly deist, which is false, mean what, that they were trying to establish a deist nation? They believed in religious tolerance, and religious freedom. Likewise, they recognized the importance of religion in establishing a moral watermark for society as a whole. Your handful of quotes point to a deist influence that was common at the time, but establishes little as to the general spiritual belief prevalent among all but a handful of men.

My belief is that you miss the greater significance of what the founder achieved, much in the same way the evangelicals do when they focus so much energy on what the spiritual beliefs of the founders were.

They were predominantly of Christian affiliation. They upheld the importance of religious freedom yet established a secular government framework. That is all that is truly important about the matter.

 

[t_polkow]

When I see a post like that, I actually feel pity for the unsaved. It's so dark, so narrow, and conflicts directly with every good thing that man is or could ever hope to be.

No you don't need a book to survive. You need the book, however, to live beyond the scope of your sadly restricted mind and your sinful, depraved and decaying body.

You're so blind, though, you don't even realize how pathetic man is, when he is without God. Without God, man is no better than an animal, and man has no redeeming characteristics.

LOL So you fell sorry for us EDUCATED jews and athesits! how idiotic coming from a bottom feeder yourself

 

[Derideo_Te]

When I see a post like that, I actually feel pity for the unsaved. It's so dark, so narrow, and conflicts directly with every good thing that man is or could ever hope to be.

No you don't need a book to survive. You need the book, however, to live beyond the scope of your sadly restricted mind and your sinful, depraved and decaying body.

You're so blind, though, you don't even realize how pathetic man is, when he is without God. Without God, man is no better than an animal, and man has no redeeming characteristics.

Here we see the self-loathing that so often defines the hyper-religious.

From the rational point of view, the fundie cannot withstand a world wherein humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by the gods, and that human progress is inherently evil, base, hindered, impossible to be moral without guidance of the father figure. The fundie is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but garbage in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maldjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

How much of that "tremendous evil and inhumanity" has been committed in the name of religious deities?

Furthermore it is fallacious to state that "man is inherently sinful". Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion. To claim that a newborn is "inherently sinful" is pure superstition and has self serving intent. Yes, mankind is capable of evil. However only a very small minority are evil while the vast majority are good. If anything man is "inherently good" rather than "sinful".

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

@ foxfyre:

Engaging with you have been both stimulating and productive. You are a credit to those of your faith.

Most of my interactions with Christians in the Religion thread have not gone well, the results usually being petty, immature insults if I don't agree with them on something, or take any challenge I present as though I am their mortal enemy that must be crushed and humiliated.

All the while I have always wished for nothing more than amicable discussion with the ability to challenge each others viewpoints without acting like petulant children. You, sir, have proven more than capable of doing just that, and I appreciate the cut of your jib.

 

[Foxfyre]

Here we see the self-loathing that so often defines the hyper-religious.

From the rational point of view, the fundie cannot withstand a world wherein humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by the gods, and that human progress is inherently evil, base, hindered, impossible to be moral without guidance of the father figure. The fundie is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but garbage in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maldjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

How much of that "tremendous evil and inhumanity" has been committed in the name of religious deities?

Furthermore it is fallacious to state that "man is inherently sinful". Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion. To claim that a newborn is "inherently sinful" is pure superstition and has self serving intent. Yes, mankind is capable of evil. However only a very small minority are evil while the vast majority are good. If anything man is "inherently good" rather than "sinful".

A gentle correction to the conclusions one might draw from your post:

1. Yes, many injustices and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, sometimes to enforce a theistic government, but most often to further the political ambitions of corrupt monarchs and popes. That was certainly in the minds of the Founders who determined that no corrupt monarch or pope would have opportunity to impose such violations of unalienable rights on the American people.

But in fairness to the religious, the serous historian has to acknowledge that far worst atrocities have been committed by governments that sought or intended to make religious faith illegal and stamp it out. That has happened in ALL such countries.

2. And as a student of ancient history and ancient civilizations, I can't accept that everybody is born Atheist and has to be taught religion. You cannot find an ancient culture, however remote or how far removed from the influence of any others, that did not have some sense of deity--something larger than themselves. For that reason, I believe the something larger exists and makes itself known however imperfectly it is understood by those who sense its presence.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Here we see the self-loathing that so often defines the hyper-religious.

From the rational point of view, the fundie cannot withstand a world wherein humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by the gods, and that human progress is inherently evil, base, hindered, impossible to be moral without guidance of the father figure. The fundie is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but garbage in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maldjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

How much of that "tremendous evil and inhumanity" has been committed in the name of religious deities?

Furthermore it is fallacious to state that "man is inherently sinful". Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion. To claim that a newborn is "inherently sinful" is pure superstition and has self serving intent. Yes, mankind is capable of evil. However only a very small minority are evil while the vast majority are good. If anything man is "inherently good" rather than "sinful".

I didn't say that man is inherently sinful. I said that it is a central tenet of Christian belief. Man's inhumanity to man is demonstrated throughout history, and not exclusively by religious perpetrators as you seem quick to try and point out. I also do not know how you interpret history to conclude that humanity is inherently good. Perhaps we are paying attention to different things.

Atheism as a philosophy is very new in the context of all human history. The majority of it has been prone to some kind of spiritual belief. Now, if you believe that this is something that should change, that human advancement demands that we shed our superstitions, I get it, but good luck. Religious drive is practically a part of the human DNA. Eliminate Christianity and some other form of faith will take it's place. We are seeing that in the world now with the diminishing of Christian numbers and the growth in Muslim numbers.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

@ foxfyre:

And other quotations attributed to Thomas Paine, who never described himself as a Deist but was probably the one of our Founders who was closest to that philosophy. He did reject Chrisianity. He did not reject relgiious faith:

I'm nitpicking, but I hope you won't get too bothered by it. Thomas Paine was most certainly a self-proclaimed deist, not only in philosophy but in name. He expressed this most often in the essay form, and in letters to Christian associates.

"Every person, of whatever religious denomination he may be, is a DEIST in the first article of his Creed. Deism, from the Latin word Deus, God, is the belief of a God, and this belief is the first article of every man's creed."
- from the essay Of The Religion of Deism Compared With
the Christian Religion by Thomas Paine

"The Church tells us that the books of the Old and New Testament are divine revelation, and without this revelation we could not have true ideas of God.
The Deist, on the contrary, says that those books are not divine revelation; and that were it not for the light of reason and the religion of Deism, those books, instead of teaching us true ideas of God, would teach us not only false but blasphemous ideas of Him."
- from the essay Biblical Blasphemy by Thomas Paine

There are others, but those two will suffice. There no shred of doubt that Thomas Paine was not only a self-proclaimed deist, but probably it's most outspoken.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Naw. I don't ask for links unless you make a statement about something or somebody that I know to be explicitly incorrect and the discussion cannot continue without clearing that up.

But I am quite confident that this information is correct:



And just a small sampling of the religious views of some of the Founders who spent years debating, arguing, negotiating, compromising, and working out the great document we call the Constitution of the USA establishing a secular government:

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: :God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see. . . .
Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

John Witherspoon: "While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

If these men of faith did not propose or implement a theocracy, why should it be assumed that people of faith now want a theocracy any more than they did?

The above might be an interesting topic of discussion at a cocktail party but outside of the context of Constitutional case law is legally irrelevant.

We aren't discussing Constitutonal case law or any other legal interpretations all of which are indeed irrelevent to the topic of this thread.

“Many who believe in the absolute truth of the Christian faith seem to believe that God's Laws should be the law or basis of the law in the US.”

The thread topic very much indeed has to do with the Constitution and its case law, where the First Amendment clearly prohibits codifying religious dogma into secular law. Although the Framers’ statements might contribute to the courts’ interpretation of the meaning of the Constitution, those statements must be used in conjunction with other facts and evidence to realize an accurate understanding of the issue under review; as the Framers were not of one mind, and they did not speak with one voice.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Here we see the self-loathing that so often defines the hyper-religious.

From the rational point of view, the fundie cannot withstand a world wherein humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by the gods, and that human progress is inherently evil, base, hindered, impossible to be moral without guidance of the father figure. The fundie is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but garbage in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maldjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

“That man is inherently sinful”, is a misleading term. “Sin” infers a theistic framework and honestly, I would hesitate to use the gods of the bibles as a benchmark for what is sinful and what is not. They are clearly lacking in terms of being the models for human existence.

The most basic rule of human sociality is non-zero-sum: no free lunch, scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, reciprocity. This is because a society made up of cheaters will (obviously) become fraught with suspicion, distrust, and peril, and will eventually fall apart. So we come to a consensus, a social contract that we all agree to live by under threat of punishment (also agreed upon by the group), and viola relative—law, order, and stability. This is the template upon which all patterns of human society are formed. Here in the West, we've progressed through theocratic totalitarianism to liberal democracy. Thank goodness.


We are a mixture of selfishness and cooperation and it serves us pretty well. Most people do behave morally.

Correct.

In essence the notion that Christians have some sort of ‘monopoly’ on morality is nonsense; where persons free from faith exhibit equally moral conduct as Christians, if not more so.

…we've progressed through theocratic totalitarianism to liberal democracy. Thank goodness.

Indeed, and we need to resist the reactionary forces who fearfully seek to return the Nation to the former.

 

[Derideo_Te]

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

How much of that "tremendous evil and inhumanity" has been committed in the name of religious deities?

Furthermore it is fallacious to state that "man is inherently sinful". Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion. To claim that a newborn is "inherently sinful" is pure superstition and has self serving intent. Yes, mankind is capable of evil. However only a very small minority are evil while the vast majority are good. If anything man is "inherently good" rather than "sinful".

I didn't say that man is inherently sinful. I said that it is a central tenet of Christian belief.

I stand corrected.

Man's inhumanity to man is demonstrated throughout history, and not exclusively by religious perpetrators as you seem quick to try and point out.

I merely asked a question.

I also do not know how you interpret history to conclude that humanity is inherently good. Perhaps we are paying attention to different things.

Do the math. There are currently 7 billion people on this planet. How many of them are stealing and murdering? According to the "inherently sinful" model that should be a majority of them. Instead the vast majority are leading normal peaceful ordinary lives. Whatever you are paying attention to it isn't the reality of everyday life for most people on this planet.

Atheism as a philosophy is very new in the context of all human history. The majority of it has been prone to some kind of spiritual belief. Now, if you believe that this is something that should change, that human advancement demands that we shed our superstitions, I get it, but good luck. Religious drive is practically a part of the human DNA. Eliminate Christianity and some other form of faith will take it's place. We are seeing that in the world now with the diminishing of Christian numbers and the growth in Muslim numbers.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of Atheism before you go any further.

History of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE. Will Durant explains that certain pygmy tribes found in Africa were observed to have no identifiable cults or rites. There were no totems, no deities, and no spirits. Their dead were buried without special ceremonies or accompanying items and received no further attention. They even appeared to lack simple superstitions, according to travelers' reports.[citation needed] The Vedahs of Ceylon[clarification needed] only admitted the possibility that deities might exist, but went no further. Neither prayers nor sacrifices were suggested in any way[citation needed]


Presocratic philosophy

Western philosophy began in the Greek world in the sixth century BCE. The first philosophers were not atheists, but they attempted to explain the world in terms of the processes of nature instead of by mythological accounts. Thus lightning was the result of "wind breaking out and parting the clouds,"[8] and earthquakes occurred when "the earth is considerably altered by heating and cooling."[9] The early philosophers often criticised traditional religious notions. Xenophanes (sixth century BCE) famously said that if cows and horses had hands, "then horses would draw the forms of gods like horses, and cows like cows."[10] Another philosopher, Anaxagoras (fifth century BCE), claimed that the Sun was "a fiery mass, larger than the Peloponnese;" a charge of impiety was brought against him, and he was forced to flee Athens.[11]

The first fully materialistic philosophy was produced by the Atomists, Leucippus, and Democritus (fifth century BCE), who attempted to explain the formation and development of the world in terms of the chance movements of atoms moving in infinite space.
Euripides (480–406 BCE), in his play Bellerophon, had the eponymous main character say: “Doth some one say that there be gods above? There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool, Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”[12]

Aristophanes (ca. 448–380 BCE), known for his satirical style, said in his The Knights play: "Shrines! Shrines! Surely you don't believe in the gods. What's your argument? Where's your proof?"[13]

[edit]The Sophists

In the fifth century BCE the Sophists began to question many of the traditional assumptions of Greek culture. Prodicus of Ceos was said to have believed that "it was the things which were serviceable to human life that had been regarded as gods,"[14] and Protagoras stated at the beginning of a book that "With regard to the gods I am unable to say either that they exist or do not exist."[15]

Diagoras of Melos (fifth century BCE) is known as the "first atheist". He blasphemed by making public the Eleusinian Mysteries and discouraging people from being initiated.[16] Somewhat later (c. 300 BCE), the Cyrenaic philosopher Theodorus of Cyrene is supposed to have denied that gods exist, and wrote a book On the Gods expounding his views.
Euhemerus (c. 330–260 BCE) published his view that the gods were only the deified rulers, conquerors, and founders of the past, and that their cults and religions were in essence the continuation of vanished kingdoms and earlier political structures.[17] Although Euhemerus was later criticized for having "spread atheism over the whole inhabited earth by obliterating the gods",[18] his worldview was not atheist in a strict and theoretical sense, because he differentiated that the primordial deities were "eternal and imperishable".[19] Some historians have argued that he merely aimed at reinventing the old religions in the light of the beginning deification of political rulers such as Alexander the Great.[20] Euhemerus' work was translated into Latin by Ennius, possibly to mythographically pave the way for the planned divinization of Scipio Africanus in Rome.[21]

 

[Derideo_Te]

It's a nice thought, and I agree that human beings can and should be owners of their own destiny. However, the whole of human history demonstrates humanity of being capable of tremendous evil and inhumanity that thus far seems inescapable. As a premise that man is inherently sinful, history supports the Christians fairly well in that regard.

The U.S. has proven to be a shining light to the rest of the world in many ways throughout most of our history. It's no surprise that theists and atheists alike want credit for all that good shit. There is a psychological need being served by placing so much importance on the Christian "guided-by-God" founders pushed by the evangelicals vs. the deist, Enlightenment inspired founders pushed by the atheists. Both influenced the founders and it's high time we accept it and move on with our lives.

How much of that "tremendous evil and inhumanity" has been committed in the name of religious deities?

Furthermore it is fallacious to state that "man is inherently sinful". Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion. To claim that a newborn is "inherently sinful" is pure superstition and has self serving intent. Yes, mankind is capable of evil. However only a very small minority are evil while the vast majority are good. If anything man is "inherently good" rather than "sinful".

A gentle correction to the conclusions one might draw from your post:

1. Yes, many injustices and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, sometimes to enforce a theistic government, but most often to further the political ambitions of corrupt monarchs and popes. That was certainly in the minds of the Founders who determined that no corrupt monarch or pope would have opportunity to impose such violations of unalienable rights on the American people.

But in fairness to the religious, the serous historian has to acknowledge that far worst atrocities have been committed by governments that sought or intended to make religious faith illegal and stamp it out. That has happened in ALL such countries.

As percentages of the total world population at the time that is not accurate. The death toll of the 30 years war (1618-1648) is roughly equal to that of the Russian revolution (1917-1921) death toll. However as a percentage of the world population the 30 years war was far deadlier.

List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. And as a student of ancient history and ancient civilizations, I can't accept that everybody is born Atheist and has to be taught religion. You cannot find an ancient culture, however remote or how far removed from the influence of any others, that did not have some sense of deity--something larger than themselves. For that reason, I believe the something larger exists and makes itself known however imperfectly it is understood by those who sense its presence.

History of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE. Will Durant explains that certain pygmy tribes found in Africa were observed to have no identifiable cults or rites. There were no totems, no deities, and no spirits. Their dead were buried without special ceremonies or accompanying items and received no further attention. They even appeared to lack simple superstitions, according to travelers' reports.[citation needed] The Vedahs of Ceylon[clarification needed] only admitted the possibility that deities might exist, but went no further. Neither prayers nor sacrifices were suggested in any way[citation needed].

Indian philosophy

In the East, a contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Jainism, Buddhism, and certain sects of Hinduism in India, and of Taoism in China.


[edit]Hinduism
Main article: Atheism in Hinduism

Within the astika ("orthodox") schools of Hindu philosophy, the Samkhya and the early Mimamsa school did not accept a creator-deity in their respective systems.
The principal text of the Samkhya school, the Samkhya Karika, was written by Ishvara Krishna in the fourth century CE, by which time it was already a dominant Hindu school. The origins of the school are much older and are lost in legend. The school was both dualistic and atheistic. They believed in a dual existence of Prakriti ("nature") and Purusha ("spirit") and had no place for an Ishvara ("God") in its system, arguing that the existence of Ishvara cannot be proved and hence cannot be admitted to exist. The school dominated Hindu philosophy in its day, but declined after the tenth century, although commentaries were still being written as late as the sixteenth century.
The foundational text for the Mimamsa school is the Purva Mimamsa Sutras of Jaimini (c. third to first century BCE). The school reached its height c. 700 CE, and for some time in the Early Middle Ages exerted near-dominant influence on learned Hindu thought. The Mimamsa school saw their primary enquiry was into the nature of dharma based on close interpretation of the Vedas. Its core tenets were ritualism (orthopraxy), anti-asceticism and anti-mysticism. The early Mimamsakas believed in an adrishta ("unseen") that is the result of performing karmas ("works") and saw no need for an Ishvara ("God") in their system. Mimamsa persists in some subschools of Hinduism today.
[edit]Jainism
See also: Jainism and non-creationism
Jains see their tradition as eternal. Jainism has prehistoric origins dating before 3000 BCE, and before the beginning of Indo-Aryan culture.[2] Organized Jainism can be dated back to Parshva who lived in the ninth century BCE, and, more reliably, to Mahavira, a teacher of the sixth century BCE, and a contemporary of the Buddha. Jainism is a dualistic religion with the universe made up of matter and souls. The universe, and the matter and souls within it, is eternal and uncreated, and there is no omnipotent creator deity in Jainism. There are, however, "gods" and other spirits who exist within the universe and Jains believe that the soul can attain "godhood", however none of these supernatural beings exercise any sort of creative activity or have the capacity or ability to intervene in answers to prayers.
[edit]Cārvāka
The thoroughly materialistic and anti-religious philosophical Cārvāka school that originated in India with the Bārhaspatya-sūtras (final centuries BCE) is probably the most explicitly atheist school of philosophy in the region. The school grew out of the generic skepticism in the Mauryan period. Already in the sixth century BCE, Ajita Kesakambalin, was quoted in Pali scriptures by the Buddhists with whom he was debating, teaching that "with the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death."[3] Cārvākan philosophy is now known principally from its Astika and Buddhist opponents. The proper aim of a Cārvākan, according to these sources, was to live a prosperous, happy, productive life in this world. The Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayarashi Bhatta (c. eighth century) is sometimes cited as a surviving Carvaka text. The school appears to have died out sometime around the fifteenth century.
[edit]Buddhism
Main article: God in Buddhism
The non-adherence[4] to the notion of a supreme deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. While Buddhist traditions do not deny the existence of supernatural beings (many are discussed in Buddhist scripture), it does not ascribe powers, in the typical Western sense, for creation, salvation or judgement, to the "gods", however, praying to enlightened deities is sometimes seen as leading to some degree of spiritual merit.
Buddhists accept the existence of beings in higher realms (see Buddhist cosmology), known as devas, but they, like humans, are said to be suffering in samsara,[5] and not particularly wiser than we are. In fact the Buddha is often portrayed as a teacher of the deities,[6] and superior to them.[7] Despite this they do have some enlightened Devas in the path of buddhahood.
In later Mahayana literature, however, the idea of an eternal, all-pervading, all-knowing, immaculate, uncreated, and deathless Ground of Being (the dharmadhatu, inherently linked to the sattvadhatu, the realm of beings), which is the Awakened Mind (bodhicitta) or Dharmakaya ("body of Truth") of the Buddha himself, is attributed to the Buddha in a number of Mahayana sutras, and is found in various tantras as well. In some Mahayana texts, such a principle is occasionally presented as manifesting in a more personalised form as a primordial buddha, such as Samantabhadra, Vajradhara, Vairochana, Amitabha, and Adi-Buddha, among others.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

@ Te:

Here we explore the danger of semantics, but the the same Wikipedia article you reference makes it pretty clear that positive atheism, as a clear cut philosophy didn't really get going until the 18th Century, and if I wasn't clear enough in earlier then I am making that clear now. Sure atheism, as a lack of belief in a deity, or non-adherence to a theistic belief, has existed for a long time. That isn't really what I was talking about. The vast majority of the world, even the reasonable Greeks, adhered to some form of theism before the 18th Century. There's not much debate about that.