Should AZ Force Gay People To Promote Christian Ideals Against Homosexuality?

[Silhouette]

Yeah- that was what those good Christian coffee shop owners said when they refused to serve to African Americans.

But hey- can't expect people like you to obey the Bible and follow the law.

What does race have to do with deviant sex behaviors? The two distinctions aren't even moderately close in superior law. This issue will come up in future USSC hearings on Christians' 1st Amendment rights vs PA laws.

 

[Silhouette]

There are two facets to this argument. On the side of loving those around you, absolutely Christians should serve everyone. It's good business too.

On the legal, moral, and ethical side, though, it would be patently unfair to force Christian business owners to go against their consciences while allowing gay business owners to refuse service to someone because of what they want to say or who they are.

Is that clear?

Christians aren't not serving people because they practice gay sex habits. Nowhere have I heard of a Christian baker refusing to sell a cupcake or a scone to a gay person (whatever that is, just heard yesterday about yet another lesbian giving up and marrying a man with the real dildo attached to him). It's when a "gay wedding" order comes in. That's where Christians are told to draw the line or else risk eternity in hell. (Jude 1 New Testament). They are not permitted to promote gay sex addictions into the fabric of normal society. That's where they must draw the line. And marriage is the epitome of that line.

As to your second comment, correct. I notice from the poll that a full 64% of voters to date believe that the state should de facto declare one set of behavioral edicts as superior to another in law. That is one and the same as the state declaring an official religion over others; which is expressly forbidden in the US Constitution. If a Christian baker must bake a "gay wedding" cake, then a gay graphic designer must print a billboard for a Christian that reads: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God!". Or else face the exact same consequences as the Christian baker. One set of values cannot get a superior status in law over another set.

 

[Syriusly]

Yeah- that was what those good Christian coffee shop owners said when they refused to serve to African Americans.

But hey- can't expect people like you to obey the Bible and follow the law.

What does race have to do with deviant sex behaviors? .

Why do you care what kind of sex people are having in private- when you refuse to serve them coffee?

 

[Syriusly]

The so-called Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but they cannot use their beliefs to deprive others of THEIR rights.

No one is forcing these people to give up their beliefs. But if they want to do business with the public, they must treat all members of the public with the same respect they would give a straight couple.

Unless of course they are also refusing to serve other classes of sinners.

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.
.

I don't claim to have 'expertise' on the Bible- I just am quoting from the Bible.

It is pretty straightforward- the Bible tells Christians to obey the law. You reject that part of the Bible. You are blinded by your fascist obsession with Homosexuals, to the word of God which tells you to obey the law.

You ignore the Word of God in order to promote your own personal agenda.

Luckily for you- since God doesn't actually exist- you will not be held accountable for your contempt for the actual language of the Bible.

You have no legal authority over me

I don't- but the state has legal authority over how you do business. Which is why you are required to have a business license, and have to follow all of the pertinent business regulations.

And the New Testament tells Christians to obey those laws.

Lucky for you- since God doesn't actually exist- you will not be held accountable for your contempt of God.

 

[Syriusly]

The so-called Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but they cannot use their beliefs to deprive others of THEIR rights.

No one is forcing these people to give up their beliefs. But if they want to do business with the public, they must treat all members of the public with the same respect they would give a straight couple.

Unless of course they are also refusing to serve other classes of sinners.

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

The Bible doesn't 'promote murder' any more than the Koran does- the Bible calls for the death of gossips- and those who disobey their parents.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable.

Private businesses and personal services are not public domain.

They are public accommodations- and covered by the law.

For the same reason why you can't legally refuse to serve a Jew just because you find their religion offensive- in the few states which have laws against discrimination based upon sexual orientation, you can't refuse to serve homosexuals just because you don't like them.

I refused to do business with anyone I do not care to do business with and never have continued to work with assholes. Liberty gave me that right and I do not foresee you or anyone else being able to force me to do something against my will if I have any say about at all. Others can cave in to you and your bullish ways but I won't.

Jesus also warned about judging people lest you be judged. And he warned against false religion and false teachers. And those who would claim to be righteous while doing evil.

It’s not hard to see how you are twisting His teachings as an excuse for hate.

Many people chastised Jesus for befriending sinners and lepers - the unclean, and Jesus rebuked them for doing so. He exhorted people to “Love one another as I have loved you”. He stopped people from stoning the adulterer by saying “Let you who is without sin among you cast the first stone”.

I don’t see a lot of love in refusing service. I don’t see Christians obeying Jesus words to obey the laws of the land in refusing service. I don’t see how you can treat other people so badly and then claim you are doing so in Jesus’ name.

Your own demons make you feel unloved..

Don't project your own feelings of inadequacy on me.

I am happy and loved.

Meanwhile, I approve of the Christians who follow the law- and don't think that Christians should be above the law.

 

[RodISHI]

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.
.

I don't claim to have 'expertise' on the Bible- I just am quoting from the Bible.

It is pretty straightforward- the Bible tells Christians to obey the law. You reject that part of the Bible. You are blinded by your fascist obsession with Homosexuals, to the word of God which tells you to obey the law.

You ignore the Word of God in order to promote your own personal agenda.

Luckily for you- since God doesn't actually exist- you will not be held accountable for your contempt for the actual language of the Bible.

You have no legal authority over me

I don't- but the state has legal authority over how you do business. Which is why you are required to have a business license, and have to follow all of the pertinent business regulations.

And the New Testament tells Christians to obey those laws.

Lucky for you- since God doesn't actually exist- you will not be held accountable for your contempt of God.

My business enterprise that provides a specialty service requires no license. You are free to worship big government and your own perversions but again you are not free to make me accept them.

 

[Silhouette]

Why do you care what kind of sex people are having in private- when you refuse to serve them coffee?

You ignored my last post, obviously. Nowhere have either of us heard of someone refusing to serve a gay-sex addict coffee. It's the word "marriage" attached to a requested service a gay sex addict is asking for that is the issue here for Christians. They're forbidden by Jude 1 under pain of eternal damnation to forward any social norm that includes gay sex addict behaviors. Marriage the epitome of that. So, coffee to consume randomly, Christians have no problem. Gay wedding cake, photos, catering etc. etc. etc. PROBLEM. And that problem is allowed a remedy in Christians' 1st Amendment rights.

 

[RodISHI]

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable.

Private businesses and personal services are not public domain.

They are public accommodations- and covered by the law.

For the same reason why you can't legally refuse to serve a Jew just because you find their religion offensive- in the few states which have laws against discrimination based upon sexual orientation, you can't refuse to serve homosexuals just because you don't like them.

I refused to do business with anyone I do not care to do business with and never have continued to work with assholes. Liberty gave me that right and I do not foresee you or anyone else being able to force me to do something against my will if I have any say about at all. Others can cave in to you and your bullish ways but I won't.

Jesus also warned about judging people lest you be judged. And he warned against false religion and false teachers. And those who would claim to be righteous while doing evil.

It’s not hard to see how you are twisting His teachings as an excuse for hate.

Many people chastised Jesus for befriending sinners and lepers - the unclean, and Jesus rebuked them for doing so. He exhorted people to “Love one another as I have loved you”. He stopped people from stoning the adulterer by saying “Let you who is without sin among you cast the first stone”.

I don’t see a lot of love in refusing service. I don’t see Christians obeying Jesus words to obey the laws of the land in refusing service. I don’t see how you can treat other people so badly and then claim you are doing so in Jesus’ name.

Your own demons make you feel unloved..

Don't project your own feelings of inadequacy on me.

I am happy and loved.

Meanwhile, I approve of the Christians who follow the law- and don't think that Christians should be above the law.

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

 

[Syriusly]

The so-called Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but they cannot use their beliefs to deprive others of THEIR rights.

No one is forcing these people to give up their beliefs. But if they want to do business with the public, they must treat all members of the public with the same respect they would give a straight couple.

Unless of course they are also refusing to serve other classes of sinners.

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

The Bible doesn't 'promote murder' any more than the Koran does- the Bible calls for the death of gossips- and those who disobey their parents.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable..

Again- I am just quoting the words of the Bible- rather than cherry picking like those of you with evil in your spirit who abuse the teachings of Jesus in order to promote your own hateful agenda. Thank God(sarcasm intended) you bigots no longer can put homosexuals in jail just because of your evil fascist interpretations of the Bible.

You are using hyperbole to try to push your own agenda..

Nope- I am using the words from your Bible to show your contempt for your own God.

Lets look at Romans again:

No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God. 2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3

So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

Can't be much clearer than that- when you decide not to obey the law of man- you are going against what your God has commanded.

Now of course you can try to have the law changed- so that 'good Christians' can choose to discriminate against gays or blacks or Jews- but when you argue that Christians shouldn't have to obey the law- you are just demonstrating your contempt for your own God.

 

[RodISHI]

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable..

Again- I am just quoting the words of the Bible- rather than cherry picking like those of you with evil in your spirit who abuse the teachings of Jesus in order to promote your own hateful agenda. Thank God(sarcasm intended) you bigots no longer can put homosexuals in jail just because of your evil fascist interpretations of the Bible.

You are using hyperbole to try to push your own agenda..

Nope- I am using the words from your Bible to show your contempt for your own God.

Lets look at Romans again:

No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God. 2 So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. 3

So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.

Can't be much clearer than that- when you decide not to obey the law of man- you are going against what your God has commanded.

Now of course you can try to have the law changed- so that 'good Christians' can choose to discriminate against gays or blacks or Jews- but when you argue that Christians shouldn't have to obey the law- you are just demonstrating your contempt for your own God.

Key word you yourself made a note of "using". You are "using" your erroneous interpretations and precepts as a self proclaimed atheist in an attempt to justify your own sickness.

 

[Silhouette]

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

What Syriusly and her cult are trying to do is to push various states to create a superior set of (a)moral edicts over established religious ones (PA laws that require people to worship gay sex values over Judeo/Christian ones specifically, though on muslims they've remained quite restrained on the legal kabuki theater.. )

The Constitution forbids this. And so the issue of inborn vs behaviors will be the final focus on this ruse and outright attempt at sedition of one of the basic building blocks of American freedoms (freedom of religion and separation of church and state). They use the separation laws to force people to remove crosses etc. And on the other hand they ignore it when it serves their purpose of forcing Christians to adopt their perverse sex lifestyle values.

It's a very transparent and weak legal position and they're going to lose it. People have had enough. It's like Germany in the 1930s, no lie.

 

[bodecea]

Yeah- that was what those good Christian coffee shop owners said when they refused to serve to African Americans.

But hey- can't expect people like you to obey the Bible and follow the law.

What does race have to do with deviant sex behaviors? The two distinctions aren't even moderately close in superior law. This issue will come up in future USSC hearings on Christians' 1st Amendment rights vs PA laws.

Christians are already protected by PA laws and the USSC has already declared PA laws Constitutional....so your only route is to get them repealed at the state level.

 

[Syriusly]

The so-called Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but they cannot use their beliefs to deprive others of THEIR rights.

No one is forcing these people to give up their beliefs. But if they want to do business with the public, they must treat all members of the public with the same respect they would give a straight couple.

Unless of course they are also refusing to serve other classes of sinners.

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

The Bible doesn't 'promote murder' any more than the Koran does- the Bible calls for the death of gossips- and those who disobey their parents.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable.

Private businesses and personal services are not public domain.

They are public accommodations- and covered by the law.

For the same reason why you can't legally refuse to serve a Jew just because you find their religion offensive- in the few states which have laws against discrimination based upon sexual orientation, you can't refuse to serve homosexuals just because you don't like them.

I refused to do business with anyone I do not care to do business with and never have continued to work with assholes. Liberty gave me that right and I do not foresee you or anyone else being able to force me to do something against my will if I have any say about at all. Others can cave in to you and your bullish ways but I won't.

Jesus also warned about judging people lest you be judged. And he warned against false religion and false teachers. And those who would claim to be righteous while doing evil.

It’s not hard to see how you are twisting His teachings as an excuse for hate.

Many people chastised Jesus for befriending sinners and lepers - the unclean, and Jesus rebuked them for doing so. He exhorted people to “Love one another as I have loved you”. He stopped people from stoning the adulterer by saying “Let you who is without sin among you cast the first stone”.

I don’t see a lot of love in refusing service. I don’t see Christians obeying Jesus words to obey the laws of the land in refusing service. I don’t see how you can treat other people so badly and then claim you are doing so in Jesus’ name.

On the legal, moral, and ethical side, though, it would be patently unfair to force Christian business owners to go against their consciences while allowing gay business owners to refuse service to someone because of what they want to say or who they are.

Is that clear?

The law doesn't care who the business owner is.

A business owner can't refuse to do business with Jews- because of their religion.

But he can refuse to do business with the KKK- or the NRA- or the
ACLU- for whatever reasons he wants.

 

[RodISHI]

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

What Syriusly and her cult are trying to do is to push various states to create a superior set of (a)moral edicts over established religious ones (PA laws that require people to worship gay sex values over Judeo/Christian ones specifically, though on muslims they've remained quite restrained on the legal kabuki theater.. )

The Constitution forbids this. And so the issue of inborn vs behaviors will be the final focus on this ruse and outright attempt at sedition of one of the basic building blocks of American freedoms (freedom of religion and separation of church and state). They use the separation laws to force people to remove crosses etc. And on the other hand they ignore it when it serves their purpose of forcing Christians to adopt their perverse sex lifestyle values.

It's a very transparent and weak legal position and they're going to lose it. People have had enough. It's like Germany in the 1930s, no lie.

A lot of people see the writing on the wall but the blind still walk in their own darkened shadows.

 

[bodecea]

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

What Syriusly and her cult are trying to do is to push various states to create a superior set of (a)moral edicts over established religious ones (PA laws that require people to worship gay sex values over Judeo/Christian ones specifically, though on muslims they've remained quite restrained on the legal kabuki theater.. )

The Constitution forbids this. And so the issue of inborn vs behaviors will be the final focus on this ruse and outright attempt at sedition of one of the basic building blocks of American freedoms (freedom of religion and separation of church and state). They use the separation laws to force people to remove crosses etc. And on the other hand they ignore it when it serves their purpose of forcing Christians to adopt their perverse sex lifestyle values.

It's a very transparent and weak legal position and they're going to lose it. People have had enough. It's like Germany in the 1930s, no lie.

If PA laws require people to worship gay sex values....they also require people to worship straight sex values. What you don't seem to know is that PA laws don't protect people just because they are gay....they protect people based on their sexual orientation.....either gay OR straight....just like they protect people based on their religio...no matter what religion that is...just like they protect people based on their race...no matter what race they are. You are JUST AS protected as a straight person.

 

[Silhouette]

Since we are talking about behaviors when we say "orientation", do drug addicts have special protection for their orientation? Eating disorders? Cleptomaniacs? Why do just weird sex addictions have a special class in law while other compulsive behaviors do not?

Christians are already protected by PA laws and the USSC has already declared PA laws Constitutional....so your only route is to get them repealed at the state level.

Well we've seen the lightening speed with which the USSC reverses its own decisions. Case in point, Windsor 2013 said 56 times that the right to set marriage constructs rests with the states; and on that premise, Windsor was awarded her money. Lifestyle-Marriage Equality Slugout: State Authority vs Federal? Then just two years later, in Obergefell they said "oh, now, we changed our mind, now that power rests with the fed".

 

[bodecea]

Your rights end where my begin. You would be trespassing if you attempt to force me to do something against my beliefs in my own business owned by me. Again private enterprise is not publicly owned. If you desire to force people to accept your personal issues and desires go to a publicly own company like Walmart that pays their employees to serve you not a privately owned enterprise

In order to get a business license, you have to agree to abide by the law. It’s a condition of your business license. That means you must abide by public accommodations laws. You cannot bar people you don’t like from using your services. You have to serve people of every race, religion or sexual orientation without discrimination.

You are not being forced to open a business. That’s a choice you make. The Bible is very clear that citizens must obey the laws of the land.

You can’t even make a reasonable religious argument for these people. They aren’t discriminating against people who disobey the 10 Commandments which are the ONLY laws that God Himself laid down. Only people who violate one or two Biblical passages written by men.

There is much in the Bible which is no longer used. Blood sacrifice is now illegal and yet the Bible says to make blood sacrifices. Adulterers aren’t stoned to death.

Using religion as a basis for one specific type of discrimination is a very dodgy excuse, at best. Especially when the passages used don’t relate to anything that Jesus said or that God laid down in His Commandments.

Paul, who is the only New Testament writer to eschew homosexuality was not one of the Apostles and never even met or spoke to Jesus so his words carry less weight on the topic than others.

You have Syriusly. The two of you can get together and give each other your personal opinions about which Bible verses mean what since you both seem to be claiming expertise on the good book but you cannot over ride another person's religious beliefs and convictions or opinions, nor can you force me or anyone else to work for you, agree with you or like you. Both of you are blinded fascist living in your own sins and you both appear to think that you can over rule the Word of God and what the Lord put into the hearts of that which he created to be pure through your own erroneous interpretations and precepts. If you two believe on Jesus Christ as your savior you will be saved but that is not to say you will not be given over to your own sinful natures nor does it say you will not pay a price in the flesh for your sins.

That is describing you to a T. Deserving death and murdering you are not one in the same. Not only that but Christians and Jewish folks that follow the tenants of the written word knowing that "thou shall not kill [murder]" and God's laws are fulfilled by the spirit. That is why you are given over to your own depravity which puts your personal issues back on you.

You are right- not murder- instead the Bible tells us that God says such people should be executed.
God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,

What is "God's righteous decree"?

Paul was referencing the Law out of the Old Testament- here are God's righteous decrees from the OT on these issues:
Deuteronomy 21:18–21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

Obviously you are hanging on tight to that which is evil that you birthed in your spirit and unwilling to "execute" the evil within yourself. Again that is a personal issue you will have to take up within yourself as the law of God remains whether you know it or not, even if you can't see it or can't perceive how that works. That is what happens when you are spiritually dead, blinded in your own sin and asleep in the dust of the earth. You may want to get with dragonlady and take it up with her as she seems to think that the word is not wholly applicable.

Private businesses and personal services are not public domain.

They are public accommodations- and covered by the law.

For the same reason why you can't legally refuse to serve a Jew just because you find their religion offensive- in the few states which have laws against discrimination based upon sexual orientation, you can't refuse to serve homosexuals just because you don't like them.

I refused to do business with anyone I do not care to do business with and never have continued to work with assholes. Liberty gave me that right and I do not foresee you or anyone else being able to force me to do something against my will if I have any say about at all. Others can cave in to you and your bullish ways but I won't.

Jesus also warned about judging people lest you be judged. And he warned against false religion and false teachers. And those who would claim to be righteous while doing evil.

It’s not hard to see how you are twisting His teachings as an excuse for hate.

Many people chastised Jesus for befriending sinners and lepers - the unclean, and Jesus rebuked them for doing so. He exhorted people to “Love one another as I have loved you”. He stopped people from stoning the adulterer by saying “Let you who is without sin among you cast the first stone”.

I don’t see a lot of love in refusing service. I don’t see Christians obeying Jesus words to obey the laws of the land in refusing service. I don’t see how you can treat other people so badly and then claim you are doing so in Jesus’ name.

On the legal, moral, and ethical side, though, it would be patently unfair to force Christian business owners to go against their consciences while allowing gay business owners to refuse service to someone because of what they want to say or who they are.

Is that clear?

The law doesn't care who the business owner is.

A business owner can't refuse to do business with Jews- because of their religion.

But he can refuse to do business with the KKK- or the NRA- or the
ACLU- for whatever reasons he wants.

Exactly....political reasons are not protected.

 

[bodecea]

Christians are already protected by PA laws and the USSC has already declared PA laws Constitutional....so your only route is to get them repealed at the state level.

Well we've seen the lightening speed with which the USSC reverses its own decisions. Case in point, Windsor 2013 said 56 times that the right to set marriage constructs rests with the states; and on that premise, Windsor was awarded her money. Lifestyle-Marriage Equality Slugout: State Authority vs Federal? Then just two years later, in Obergefell they said "oh, now, we changed our mind, now that power rests with the fed".

There was no mind-changing between those two ruling.

 

[Dragonlady]

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

What Syriusly and her cult are trying to do is to push various states to create a superior set of (a)moral edicts over established religious ones (PA laws that require people to worship gay sex values over Judeo/Christian ones specifically, though on muslims they've remained quite restrained on the legal kabuki theater.. )

The Constitution forbids this. And so the issue of inborn vs behaviors will be the final focus on this ruse and outright attempt at sedition of one of the basic building blocks of American freedoms (freedom of religion and separation of church and state). They use the separation laws to force people to remove crosses etc. And on the other hand they ignore it when it serves their purpose of forcing Christians to adopt their perverse sex lifestyle values.

It's a very transparent and weak legal position and they're going to lose it. People have had enough. It's like Germany in the 1930s, no lie.

Except that everything you just posted is a lie. No one is asking that you “worship sex values”. They’re saying that you cannot refuse gays service because they are gay.

You keep lying as to what this is about because you can’t justify your bigotry any other way. Providing services to a gay wedding does not require participating in the wedding. Nor does it even require attendance at the wedding.

Printing invitations and baking a wedding cake don’t even require attendance at the wedding so stop pretending the merchants are the victims here because they're not.

Follow Jesus’ words and obey the law.

 

[bodecea]

It is still a country with free speech and telling you that you as an atheist and an obvious perverter has no legal authority over me or my beliefs and my mind is perfectly legal.

What Syriusly and her cult are trying to do is to push various states to create a superior set of (a)moral edicts over established religious ones (PA laws that require people to worship gay sex values over Judeo/Christian ones specifically, though on muslims they've remained quite restrained on the legal kabuki theater.. )

The Constitution forbids this. And so the issue of inborn vs behaviors will be the final focus on this ruse and outright attempt at sedition of one of the basic building blocks of American freedoms (freedom of religion and separation of church and state). They use the separation laws to force people to remove crosses etc. And on the other hand they ignore it when it serves their purpose of forcing Christians to adopt their perverse sex lifestyle values.

It's a very transparent and weak legal position and they're going to lose it. People have had enough. It's like Germany in the 1930s, no lie.

A lot of people see the writing on the wall but the blind still walk in their own darkened shadows.

So...both of you threaten us with a NAZI-like regime. Fascinating. We don't go down so easily anymore.