Shootings in Britain

[2aguy]

And you can't stop rape, robbery and murder with nice thoughts...

True. But guns don’t necessarily stop, robbery, rape, or murder.

Again, it is a lot easier for a 120 pound woman to stop a violent sexual assault by one or more larger, stronger males, when she has a gun, than by using nice thoughts...you doofus.....

 

[2aguy]

This fact, according to you, should have increased the gun crime rate in the United States as the rest of the world experienced crime rates going down....since, again, your argument is more guns will increase gun crime and regular crime.

You appear to live in a fantasy bubble where everyone you disagree with is an “anti-gun extremist”. I’ve never put forth this argument, yet you keep accusing me of doing so. I merely disprove your argument time after time that private ownership of guns reduces crime and your idolised “gun gurus” have feet of clay.

Just because you seem unable to grasp my position I’ll say again, I like guns, I used to own three handguns when it was legal to do so in the UK and spent a lot of my spare time on the shooting range. In that respect, I’m possibly your worst nightmare, someone who’s not afraid of guns but sees the value in gun registration, licensing after strict background/medical/psychological checks and extensive compulsory training in handling and safe storing of firearms. In other words, responsible gun ownership.

I do not see the value of letting every Tom, Dick or Harry carry guns around without any restrictions; the situation you have in the USA. I do not subscribe to the myth that, “the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

You don't see registration, or licensing because you are too stupid to understand that they do nothing to stop criminals, and simply make it easier for the government to ban and confiscate guns....as your countries experience shows....first you registered and licensed guns, you doofus, then you banned and confiscated them....

and your training requirements are simply another way to keep normal people from being able to afford the time and cost to own and carry guns....as your country also shows......so that only the rich and politically connected can either jump through the hoops or ignore them entirely...while the poor and middle class are left helpless in the face of violent criminals and rogue governments....

You are such a dumb ass....

 

[2aguy]

The gun was illegal…

No. If the gun was bought legally, it remains a legally acquired firearm. The use it was put to was illegal, i.e. obtained by a 15-year-old boy and used to shoot at people with intent to kill.

If the 15 year old has it and carries it, it was an illegal gun, you moron......15 year olds can't buy, own or carry guns in the U.S........

 

[2aguy]

Meanwhile in America…

Baby of pregnant Florida woman accidentally shot by husband dies

“The Martin County Sheriff's Office said a man said he mistook his pregnant wife for an intruder and shot her in the head, killing her.”

then there's this:

"As parents rushed to pick up their kids hours after a shooting at Hendersonville Middle School, two sisters described what they say was a frightening scene inside the gym.

That’s where police say a firearm was discharged by a 12-year-old boy, striking a 12-year-old girl in the leg."

13-year-old accused of shooting classmate faces felony charge

Gosh, wonder where a 12 year old boy got the gun?

And more. Suspect in shooting death of 7-year-old Detroit girl arrested in Dallas

“Police said a vehicle drove by a home on the 3900 block of Bedford at about 8:20 p.m. on Oct. 28 and opened fire on the house. Reginae had been sleeping on a couch when she was struck in the head by shots fired through the living room window, police said. She died Oct. 30.

"It's sad when you can't go to sleep because you don't know if you'll wake up again," said her mother, Etosha Williams, days after the shooting. "It's sad that as parents, you put your child to sleep, and lay them on the couch, and you're thinking all is well — but yet a coward decides they have nothing better to do than shoot rounds into a house that had two parents and nine children in there."

Yeah.....the woman shot? Likely a murder by her husband.........the police were still investigating the shooting at the time of the article...you doofus....

 

[Vagabond63]

All of the studies I linked to were outside of Dr. Lott's influence, done by independent researchers…

Blah, blah. Every one of these “studies” was based on subjective data from small sample surveys and extrapolations made based on whichever statistical model the researcher chose to use. You have provided no hard objective data to support your assertions, only estimates.

By your standard if you looked at Oreo cookie sales over the same period, assuming they showed a consistant increase, you could claim that Oreo cookies were responsible for the reduction in crime.

 

[Vagabond63]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

 

[Vagabond63]

You are wrong....what you believe is not based in truth, facts or reality.......and each time you bring up points, in the end, they support my position and defeat yours.

Well, when you make up arguments I’ve not made then “disprove” them with your fantasies and provide no objective facts, sounds to me like a classic Straw Man fallacy. Enough said.

 

[Vagabond63]

1.1 million times a year, Americans use their legal guns to save lives......according to the Centers for Disease control

No NOT according to the CDC, they’ve never made such a claim, that’s just your gun guru Kleck extrapolating again.[/quote]

 

[2aguy]

All of the studies I linked to were outside of Dr. Lott's influence, done by independent researchers…

Blah, blah. Every one of these “studies” was based on subjective data from small sample surveys and extrapolations made based on whichever statistical model the researcher chose to use. You have provided no hard objective data to support your assertions, only estimates.

By your standard if you looked at Oreo cookie sales over the same period, assuming they showed a consistant increase, you could claim that Oreo cookies were responsible for the reduction in crime.

Wow....you are still dumb.

You said crime rates fell around the world, even in the U.S.

I showed you that while crime rates fell around the world, including in the U.S., more and more Americans went out, bought guns and now over 19.4 million of them carry those guns for self defense......

That variable in the equation of falling crime rates, according to you, should have kept the U.S. from experiencing reduced crime rates...since you believe more guns = more gun crime.

Since gun crime fell 75%, violent crime fell 72%, and gun murder fell 49% in the United States.......that means that guns in the hands of law abiding people do not increase the crime rate or the gun crime rate....

Showing your theory is wrong.

Your oreo concept fails.....since there have been no studies done on oreos and crime while there has been extensive research into concealed carry rates and small reductions in crime.

At the same time.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders...according to the Centers for Disease Control Research........backed up by the Department of Justice Research that found the rate at 1.5 million times a year, backed up by another 15 studies on how often Ameiricans use guns to fight and stop crime.

 

[Vagabond63]

If you want to post stories....I can post stories...

How childish. Dear boy, that’s all you ever do, post stories to scare people into buying guns.

It’s your whole reason for posting in the Europe forum, to try to con gullible Americans into believing that gun control doesn’t work.

You even repeat the same stories from 2017 and earlier, again and again and again and again.

It’s just like the quote often attributed to Goebbles, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Of course, the other reason you resort to pages of cut and paste is to flood the thread with BS so the average reader can’t follow the argument and see you getting trounced. Trump’s best buddy Vlad, uses this tactic a lot, so do Conservatives in both the US and the UK. The modern version is called “The Firehose of Falsehood” Russia's “Firehose of Falsehood” Propaganda Model
Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda:

1. High-volume and multichannel
2. Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
3. Lacks commitment to objective reality
4. Lacks commitment to consistency.

3-4 describe you to a T.

 

[Vagabond63]

That variable in the equation of falling crime rates, according to you, should have kept the U.S. from experiencing reduced crime rates...since you believe more guns = more gun crime.

And again, I've never stated that more guns = more gun crime. Proves my point again thanks.

 

[2aguy]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

I listed several studies that showed that increases in concealed carry help to lower the crime rate.....you are lying....again. You lie because the facts, truth and reality do not support your beliefs....

And again...


The world experienced a decrease in crime rates, including the U.S.

At the time of these declining crime rates more and more Americans owned and also actually carried guns in public for self defense.....

The violent crime rate in the U.S. fell 72%, the gun crime rate fell 75%, the gun murder rate fell 49%....

That shows that the variable in the falling crime rates, gun ownership, did not stop the falling crime rates in the U.S..........and the crime rates in the U.S. fell more than the rest of the world....crime rates in Europe fell 46%.......violent crime in the U.S. fell 72%.

This shows that you are wrong....and no matter how many ways you try to deny it, your own point about falling crime rates around the world shows you are wrong.

 

[2aguy]

If you want to post stories....I can post stories...

How childish. Dear boy, that’s all you ever do, post stories to scare people into buying guns.

It’s your whole reason for posting in the Europe forum, to try to con gullible Americans into believing that gun control doesn’t work.

You even repeat the same stories from 2017 and earlier, again and again and again and again.

It’s just like the quote often attributed to Goebbles, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Of course, the other reason you resort to pages of cut and paste is to flood the thread with BS so the average reader can’t follow the argument and see you getting trounced. Trump’s best buddy Vlad, uses this tactic a lot, so do Conservatives in both the US and the UK. The modern version is called “The Firehose of Falsehood” Russia's “Firehose of Falsehood” Propaganda Model
Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda:

1. High-volume and multichannel
2. Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
3. Lacks commitment to objective reality
4. Lacks commitment to consistency.

3-4 describe you to a T.

I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions.

Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.

You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.

 

[Vagabond63]

Here’s a problem we don’t have in the UK compared to America, an interesting article from your favourite source, Mother Jones Gun violence costs America $229 billion a year—more than $700 for every man, woman, and child an article from 2015, granted, but arguably more relevant today.

 

[2aguy]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

Yes...actually, you did. I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....

1) I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.

2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.

You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.

 

[Vagabond63]

I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions.

Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.

You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.

More projection.

 

[Vagabond63]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

Yes...actually, you did. I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....

1) I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.

2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.

You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.

Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.

 

[2aguy]

Here’s a problem we don’t have in the UK compared to America, an interesting article from your favourite source, Mother Jones Gun violence costs America $229 billion a year—more than $700 for every man, woman, and child an article from 2015, granted, but arguably more relevant today.

Yes....criminals cause a lot of pain and suffering to their victims......our problem isn't that Americans own and carry guns......our problem is that the democrat party in this country keeps releasing violent criminals from custody.....over and over again, and especially in the cities that they completely control.

Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop these criminals, according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times a year if you prefer the Department of Justice Research...there are also another 15 or so studies that show high levels of gun self defense....I have listed those studies before and I can do it again.....

As to the cost.....you don't look at the savings when Americans stop rape, robberies and murders with their legal guns....

But we have....

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.





==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.

 

[2aguy]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

Yes...actually, you did. I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....

1) I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.

2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.

You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.

Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.

Facts, truth and reality are not your strong points.........

 

[2aguy]

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)

Yes...actually, you did. I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....

1) I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.

2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.

You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.

Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.

Just so you don't forget.......the questions you still refuse to answer....

Which is better for you........a woman is raped, tortured and murdered....or she uses her legal gun to stop the attack?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a rape, murder or robbery, if you had the ability to go back in time...would you take that gun away from her before she used it to stop the attack?

You refuse to answer the questions....