Sexual Orientation: What are it's causes?

[Quantum Windbag]

Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.

Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.

My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.

I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.

 

[Vidi]

My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?

ahhhh the change up accompanied by the back off. Didnt you post:

So you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks huh?

I did not change my position, here is my first post in this thread where I stated my position.

What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.

Then you try to call me for repeating it?

Yes, I did say there is no evidence that brain development affects behavior. I will take the time here to point out that that statement does not even begin to contradict my position that there is no evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice.

I have a suggestion, go back to arguing with Sunni, you have a better chance of not looking stupid.

I concede that I missed your first post and mistook the one I quoted as your first foray into that line of reasoning.

I still completely disagree with your line of reasoning, so allow me to take a different tact in this discussion.

We are discovering new things all the time about what factors go into our personalities all the time. One of the links I provided even shows eveidence that the death of the father during pregnancy can possibly lead to a higher risk of schizophrenia.

Are you married? if so, why did you choose your wife? Was she a surrogate for a specific preference imprinted on your psyche in early childhood? Do you know? Can you possibly know?

Why do I stick my tongue out just a little bit when Im concentrating really hard, just like my father...is it genetic? or a learned subconscious response? Do you know?

Are you SURE?

Because unless youre absolutely POSITIVE, which based on your own assertion that there is no concrete conclusive evidence that its a choice or not, would make you either incredibly arrogant or God himself, then what gives YOU the right to deny the rights of others?

PS still love your name.

 

[ABikerSailor]

My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.

Actually, I DO believe in evolution. I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.

 

[Cenotaph]

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.

I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

 

[Cenotaph]

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.

Actually, I DO believe in evolution. I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.

For the record, Quantum Windbag has yet to make any references to religious dogma.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I concede that I missed your first post and mistook the one I quoted as your first foray into that line of reasoning.

I still completely disagree with your line of reasoning, so allow me to take a different tact in this discussion.

I do not have a line of reasoning, I have a position that is based on the current understanding of science and a deep cynicism of the attempt of researchers who have an agenda using skewed data to prove non existent correlations.

The Neurocritic: Voodoo Correlations in Social Neuroscience

We are discovering new things all the time about what factors go into our personalities all the time. One of the links I provided even shows eveidence that the death of the father during pregnancy can possibly lead to a higher risk of schizophrenia.

Stress during pregnancy drives babies crazy. Did the study include case studies of the same baby without said stress? If not, they are jumping to conclusions based on wishful thinking.

Are you married? if so, why did you choose your wife? Was she a surrogate for a specific preference imprinted on your psyche in early childhood? Do you know? Can you possibly know?

Yes, I can know, because I have free will.

Why do I stick my tongue out just a little bit when Im concentrating really hard, just like my father...is it genetic? or a learned subconscious response? Do you know?

No.

Are you SURE?

100%

Because unless youre absolutely POSITIVE, which based on your own assertion that there is no concrete conclusive evidence that its a choice or not, would make you either incredibly arrogant or God himself, then what gives YOU the right to deny the rights of others?

How is me knowing denying anyone anything?

PS still love your name.

Thanks.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.

Actually, I DO believe in evolution. I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.

Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.

Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.

I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.

Actually, I DO believe in evolution. I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.

Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.

Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.

Actually, because I don't have an advanced degree in neuroscience, when the people who actually ARE neuroscientists and biologists publish their results, with the evidence to back them up, I tend to believe them.

Not some anonymous asshole on a messageboard, because you have nothing to link to.

As far as being a "religious bigot"? Really? Because if that's your stance, you obviously have not read how I really don't like dogmatic people of ANY stripe, especially Christians.

As far as my belief systems? I like to study Tao, as well as Judaic theology, because it helps me to see where others have bastardized the words of Yeshua.

 

[Vidi]

I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

I wouldnt be surprised if everyone has tendencies, especially those that deny it the most hehe.

That goes back to the hormones in the womb again though. And why men have nipples...because we all start off female in the womb or rather we start off "undetermined' then the hormones hit and decide our gender for us. Its now being theorized that WHEN those hormones hit can be a factor in our disposition towards sexual preference.

 

[Flopper]

I have seen no creditable evidence to even suggest that homosexuality is a choice. Although I'm not gay I had a family member who was and also several friends. Anyone that would suggest that a kid would choose to be gay and suffer the taunts and humiliation dumped on him by classmates, is just plain stupid. My cousin killed himself at age 16 because he could not stand being hated by his classmates. He left a letter to his dad and mom asking for them to forgive him for being the way he was.

 

[Cenotaph]

I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

Okay, then here are two questions:
1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?

Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).

Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?

 

[koshergrl]

Here's what I can say with a definite answer:

1. Sexual orientation is not a choice.
2. It's is not unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).

How do you know it's not a choice? Other than you being too stupid to understand that something can be a choice without being as trivial and conscious as Coke vs. Pepsi?

What do you mean it occurs in many species? Do you know of individuals of any non-human species that likes to cross-dress? Do you know that animals are stupid? Can you point to any documented example in the animal kingdom of healthy, wild animals totally avoiding heterosexual acts in favor of homosexual acts?

Identical twins go a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis. The failure to find genetic other congenital cause of homosexuality, after herculean effort, also goes a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.

Do you think pedophiles are born-that-way?

You're full of shit.

How do I know it's not a choice? I am gay myself.

How do I know homosexuality occurs within other species of the animal kingdom? It occurs in penguins, dogs, bison, owls, beetles, whales, and numerous other organisms (too many to list). I would post a few links supporting this, but I do not have 15 or more posts, so... I am unable to. However, any quick research will show that I am correct.

If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.

Also, please refrain from antagonizing people in this thread. It exists to get away from the bullshit, not to continue it. (It also doesn't help your argument).

Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?

Sure.

Homos who get their fudge packed have chosen to get it packed.

It's really that simple.

So that's a "no."

And you're wrong.

I've no doubt you've convinced yourself you have no control over your behavior. But you do. You just don't chose to exert it.

 

[koshergrl]

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

Okay, then here are two questions:
1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?

Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).

Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?

""As you can tell, I am very annoyed about this issue. Why can’t it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we’re just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don’t think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn’t realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I’ve been out with.”

How Would Cynthia Nixon's "I Chose Homosexuality" Statements Play In Court?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJxXrKrUzw]I CHOOSE to be Gay - YouTube[/ame]

This one is a kid wearing braces, and he "chooses" to be gay.

Nice parenting:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmgAvufOjvM]Why I chose to be gay (Jan12'12) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Actually, I DO believe in evolution. I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.

Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.

Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.

Actually, because I don't have an advanced degree in neuroscience, when the people who actually ARE neuroscientists and biologists publish their results, with the evidence to back them up, I tend to believe them.

Not some anonymous asshole on a messageboard, because you have nothing to link to.

As far as being a "religious bigot"? Really? Because if that's your stance, you obviously have not read how I really don't like dogmatic people of ANY stripe, especially Christians.

As far as my belief systems? I like to study Tao, as well as Judaic theology, because it helps me to see where others have bastardized the words of Yeshua.

Neuroscientists and biologists don't have the answers. The simple truth is, at this point, we don't know what causes anything. There is a correlation between brain structure and sexual preferences, but no one knows what the cause is. there are a bunch of psychologists that assume that the brain structure causes the sexual choice, but we do not know that. You are not relying on science, you just think you are.

When I start bastardizing Y'shua's words feel free to call me on it. Until them, keep your fracking trap shut because you don't know half as much as you think you do.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

I wouldnt be surprised if everyone has tendencies, especially those that deny it the most hehe.

That goes back to the hormones in the womb again though. And why men have nipples...because we all start off female in the womb or rather we start off "undetermined' then the hormones hit and decide our gender for us. Its now being theorized that WHEN those hormones hit can be a factor in our disposition towards sexual preference.

We don't know what influences anything, my position is unchanged.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have seen no creditable evidence to even suggest that homosexuality is a choice. Although I'm not gay I had a family member who was and also several friends. Anyone that would suggest that a kid would choose to be gay and suffer the taunts and humiliation dumped on him by classmates, is just plain stupid. My cousin killed himself at age 16 because he could not stand being hated by his classmates. He left a letter to his dad and mom asking for them to forgive him for being the way he was.

What credible evidence do you have that it is not a choice? I know a kid that got taunted for being gay even though he wasn't, does that prove anything?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.

I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.

Okay, then here are two questions:
1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?

Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).

Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?

1. I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
2. How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?

I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...

I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.


As for your psychological question, consider this.


Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today

 

[Cenotaph]

There is no valid, conclusive scientific evidence supporting what causes sexual orientation.

This is currently my opinion after having participated in and observed this debate (as well as multiple others). I have also done quite a bit of (recent) research on my own too.