Seriously, I blame Protestantism for just about all America's current woes

[JoeB131]

I read up on the Mountain Meadow massacre and it is very complicated. The group killed off were against the Mormons. They wanted to get rid of all Mormons. When they were killed off, only one man was executed for the crime.

Actually, it's not complicated at all. The Francher Party was on their way to California. The Mormons first instigated the Paiute Indians to attack them, and when that failed, they promised them safe passage, and slaughtered all of them except a handful of small children.

 

[JoeB131]

Damn, another Mormon walking into a rake Didn't Bob warn you guys about me?

Joseph didn't have child brides. It is illegal to have more than one wife in the U.S. and he was never charged with that. What happened, and you can read up on it by the girl herself that she was "Sealed" to Joseph Smith. Marriage is a manmade construct and Sealing is Heavenly constructed. They never had sex either and she testified to that many times. Even when she was old and dying. So, that's the end of that.

Oh, bullshit. Smith was ******* those kids. The difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh? Original and Extra Crispy!!! (Heh, heh, heh)

True, Smith was never "Charged" with that. The people of the area got fed up with his cult bullshit and lynched him!

Mountain Meadow Massacre was done by members of the Church, not directed by the Church President.

Actually, there was plenty of evidence that it was ordered by Brigham Young, but John D. Lee ( a cousin of Young) was foisted up as the scapegoat.

And, the Kirtland Bank account is like banks today that go under. Banks today are broke. Go ask for $50,000 and see how long it takes for them to get you the money.

Um, I was able to take out $20,000 a few months ago, no question asked, because it was my money. If I wanted to close my own accounts, I'd have no problem doing so. The problem with Kirtland was that Smith, being a natural born con artist, did stuff like fill strongboxes with sand, and then cover the top layer with coins to give people the false impression the not-a-bank (They called it a "Safety Society") could back up the notes they were writing.

Now, back to the Catholic Church, Popes have been wicked and even killed others to become Pope. It's in their history. Popes are supposed to be like Prophets, messengers from God. So, that ends that nonsense too.

Again, not going to defend the Catholic Church that much, because I think it's kind of evil.

Here's a key thing. in 1983, I walked away from the Catholic Church after my mom passed away because, frankly, nothing they said to me did anything other than royally piss me off. However, I am on speaking terms with most of my relatives, almost all of whom are still practicing Catholics. If I had been in the Mormon Cult, my relatives would have been required to shun me until I knuckled under and got back into the fold. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT CULTS DO!

So, let's look at what the Church does for its members and non-members. Just look at the massive welfare program the LDS Church has been able to develop in just a few decades. The Catholic Church has been able to steal gold and silver from all over the world for 1500 years. They have over a billion members, most of them forced to become members or die. So, of course they can do "more" because they have "more" to work with. We do plenty to help the poor and the needy in the Church and outside the Church. Other Churches are always noting how we help the way we can and ask for assistance too. The LDS Church has only 18 million people compared to over a billion Catholic people.

Um, yeah, here's the thing. People shouldn't have to grovel in front of Imaginary Sky Fairies to eat. If there are poor people, it's because of failures of societies.

As I wrote in another post, the LDS Church welfare actually uses the Catholic Charities distribution program to get welfare goods and services to many parts of the world because of their ability to do this without the major corruption of other organizations.

See above.

 

[Cougarbear]

Damn, another Mormon walking into a rake Didn't Bob warn you guys about me?



Oh, bullshit. Smith was ******* those kids. The difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh? Original and Extra Crispy!!! (Heh, heh, heh)

True, Smith was never "Charged" with that. The people of the area got fed up with his cult bullshit and lynched him!



Actually, there was plenty of evidence that it was ordered by Brigham Young, but John D. Lee ( a cousin of Young) was foisted up as the scapegoat.



Um, I was able to take out $20,000 a few months ago, no question asked, because it was my money. If I wanted to close my own accounts, I'd have no problem doing so. The problem with Kirtland was that Smith, being a natural born con artist, did stuff like fill strongboxes with sand, and then cover the top layer with coins to give people the false impression the not-a-bank (They called it a "Safety Society") could back up the notes they were writing.



Again, not going to defend the Catholic Church that much, because I think it's kind of evil.

Here's a key thing. in 1983, I walked away from the Catholic Church after my mom passed away because, frankly, nothing they said to me did anything other than royally piss me off. However, I am on speaking terms with most of my relatives, almost all of whom are still practicing Catholics. If I had been in the Mormon Cult, my relatives would have been required to shun me until I knuckled under and got back into the fold. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT CULTS DO!



Um, yeah, here's the thing. People shouldn't have to grovel in front of Imaginary Sky Fairies to eat. If there are poor people, it's because of failures of societies.


See above.

Again, there was one girl under 18 that wasn’t married nor ever lived with Joseph Smith. There is no evidence he had sex with any of them. Yet, you weren’t there and seem to have all this knowledge of what happened. I noticed you simply ignored what sealings are about verses marriage. If he was having all this sex with girls where are all the children? Keep spreading lies. You are a false bearer.

People always kill their prophets. It’s because they can’t humble themselves enough to admit their faults and wrongdoings. Like you. You unrighteously judge everyone and everything.
And the reason you walked away from the Catholic Church is a perfect example. Did you walk away because you found they didn’t teach and practice true doctrine and ordinance? No. You walked away because you got your feelings hurt. I’m sure it was something you made up in your own mind so you could put God on the back burner and have a more sinful life while you condemn others for their sins.

Now to the part about Churches shunning people. I’ve only seen one Christian Church shun others. That’s the JW Church. The LDS Church doesn’t shun people who walk away. When someone wants their name removed from the records of the Church, most of the time it doesn’t happen. Bishop’s conveniently forget to and still try to include them. The only time I’ve seen otherwise is when a member is caught molesting children and they don’t repent. They are told not to return without a real change in heart and get the help needed. In 47 years I’ve seen both sides. My wife has a nephew who as a teenager molested a neighbor boy because he was being molested. Well, he also turned out to be gay later in his life. Yet, his family still loved him and helped him. His mother had the most problem with all of it but accepts him in the family even with his husband. On the otherhand, a few years ago, a pedophile was released from jail. He had been excommunicated came back to our Ward. When interviewed by the bishop he still had the desire to do it again. He was told not to come near a church building until he fully repents and loses his desire to do evil. The other Churches in the area where he lives were notified as well. So, once again, you bear false witness against your neighbors. Evil.

Then, to hide your own evil works you blame God and try to attack his existence and the billions that believe in him. Typical loudmouth sinner who hides his own sins but attacks others who he thinks sin. You are a legend in your own mind.

 

[my2¢]

I suppose that if only we were a Catholic country like Haiti we'd have Mr. Bluebird sitting on our shoulder. Or, on the other hand, like Israel.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, there was one girl under 18 that wasn’t married nor ever lived with Joseph Smith. There is no evidence he had sex with any of them. Yet, you weren’t there and seem to have all this knowledge of what happened. I noticed you simply ignored what sealings are about verses marriage. If he was having all this sex with girls where are all the children? Keep spreading lies. You are a false bearer.

Here we go again. I had this same sad argument with Bob Blaylock, and he was shocked to find out he was wrong.

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

His second wife was Fanny Alger, age 16.

He also married
Sarah Ann Whitney - 17
Flora Ann Woodworth - 16
Lucy Walker - 17
Sarah Lawrence -17
Helen Mar Kimball - 14
Nancy Maria Winchester - 14

Some of the ages of his other 34 wives is unknown.

People always kill their prophets. It’s because they can’t humble themselves enough to admit their faults and wrongdoings. Like you. You unrighteously judge everyone and everything.

Actually, he was killed because he was a serial con artist.

And the reason you walked away from the Catholic Church is a perfect example. Did you walk away because you found they didn’t teach and practice true doctrine and ordinance? No. You walked away because you got your feelings hurt. I’m sure it was something you made up in your own mind so you could put God on the back burner and have a more sinful life while you condemn others for their sins.

Naw, I walked away because my mom died of cancer, and the things the priests and nuns said were so ******* stupid that I didn't want to ever be in the same room with one of them again.

Then, to hide your own evil works you blame God and try to attack his existence and the billions that believe in him. Typical loudmouth sinner who hides his own sins but attacks others who he thinks sin. You are a legend in your own mind.

OH, I'm awesome, but that's not the point.

I don't tell anyone how to live. I might say certain things are good ideas, but I don't get moral about it.

 

[beautress]

Just assume for the sake of argument that the Catholic Church really is the True Church, the one and only founded by Christ Himself, as informed Catholics say.

I know it's hard for some, but just try to believe this for ONE second...

It only makes sense that going against Christ's True Church would have HORRIFIC consequences.

And so we look around us and-- there is HORRIFIC

everywhere... morals are in the ditch

the economy, ditto

And just look what Trump is going through with the fake court cases Stalin would be proud of!

It all came from rebellion.. Rebellion against Christ's Church is rebellion against God.

No wonder some Catholic here (can't recall handle name) said he prefers the Old Testament to the New.. I myself wouldn't say that, but...

sometimes I look nostalgically at... some things in the Old Testament.. like God not waiting very long to do Justice.. And most people do not appear to be terribly grateful for Him waiting on them either...

The Christian church is where two, three, or more are gathered together in Christ's name. The Bible says so.

 

[forkintheroad7]

The Christian church is where two, three, or more are gathered together in Christ's name. The Bible says so.

I know that.

But the non Catholics don't have the Real Presence, which is a TANGIBLE manifestation .. Jesus.. who is with us even when no one else is around. A lot of people are not people-persons and don't want to be around others. So the Catholic Church has a place (the Church.. a chapel in the Church or nearby) where people can be all alone with Jesus... most awesome experience known to man... (if someone shows up to join you, great, but He is there regardless)

Sadly, 95% of humans don't avail themselves of this Gift.. or maybe it is only 80% ... God knows.. I myself have ptsd and do not trust human beings.. so yeh, maybe the RP is only for people like me... ? I say Not so.. but in any case..

 

[Robert W]

Actually, it's not complicated at all. The Francher Party was on their way to California. The Mormons first instigated the Paiute Indians to attack them, and when that failed, they promised them safe passage, and slaughtered all of them except a handful of small children.

See, you complicated it. The Mormons in those days were killed off and attacked and jailed in various states and they went to Utah to be safe. The Francher party wanted to kill them. They were almost wiped out as a result. One Mormon was executed. By the state.

 

[Cougarbear]

Here we go again. I had this same sad argument with Bob Blaylock, and he was shocked to find out he was wrong.

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

His second wife was Fanny Alger, age 16.

He also married
Sarah Ann Whitney - 17
Flora Ann Woodworth - 16
Lucy Walker - 17
Sarah Lawrence -17
Helen Mar Kimball - 14
Nancy Maria Winchester - 14

Some of the ages of his other 34 wives is unknown.



Actually, he was killed because he was a serial con artist.



Naw, I walked away because my mom died of cancer, and the things the priests and nuns said were so ******* stupid that I didn't want to ever be in the same room with one of them again.


OH, I'm awesome, but that's not the point.

I don't tell anyone how to live. I might say certain things are good ideas, but I don't get moral about it.

The last thing is a lie too. You do tell people how to live with lies. It’s called deception. The reason is you. Relieve you were deceived so everyone who believes in God have been deceived. You are a horrible person.

As far as if Joseph had one or more girls sealed to him, they were never married because that would be illegal. And, they did not have sex unless later they were married. So, you are again deceiving others because the concept of sealing doesn’t fit your desire to destroy people’s beliefs in God. Your story about your mom is just a way to give yourself the opportunity to sin the way you want to. So, did you ever have sex with someone under 18? Even as a teen yourself? Statutory rape? Grow up. Humble yourself in sight of the Lord and he will lift you up.

 

[Robert W]

The last thing is a lie too. You do tell people how to live with lies. It’s called deception. The reason is you. Relieve you were deceived so everyone who believes in God have been deceived. You are a horrible person.

As far as if Joseph had one or more girls sealed to him, they were never married because that would be illegal. And, they did not have sex unless later they were married. So, you are again deceiving others because the concept of sealing doesn’t fit your desire to destroy people’s beliefs in God. Your story about your mom is just a way to give yourself the opportunity to sin the way you want to. So, did you ever have sex with someone under 18? Even as a teen yourself? Statutory rape? Grow up. Humble yourself in sight of the Lord and he will lift you up.

That one issue which the church quit in the 1890s forever puzzles the deceivers the most it seems. Polygamy was not illegal in the Federal US. Where it was found illegal is in particular states and you posters are welcome to study those states. But in Utah as a territory, it was federal and polygamy was completely legal. The Government in Utah wanted to be in the US proper so outlawed polygamy to become the state. The Mormon church was in total agreement. Sealing is a thing most who go to church do not understand. Parents seal themselves to their children as I have been to mine and it is not marriage at all.

 

[JoeB131]

See, you complicated it. The Mormons in those days were killed off and attacked and jailed in various states and they went to Utah to be safe. The Francher party wanted to kill them. They were almost wiped out as a result. One Mormon was executed. By the state.

No Complication at all.

The Francher party were innocent civilians.

Mormons got chased out to Utah because their deranged and evil cult kept breaking the law in whatever state they settled in. Then they tried to carve out their own little country in Utah.

 

[Robert W]

No Complication at all.

The Francher party were innocent civilians.

Mormons got chased out to Utah because their deranged and evil cult kept breaking the law in whatever state they settled in. Then they tried to carve out their own little country in Utah.

See you complicated it again. The Francher party declared they came to wipe out Mormons. One man was executed for this crime. Mormons did not break laws. They are not evil at all. They did carve from a territory a state. It still exists.

 

[JoeB131]

The last thing is a lie too. You do tell people how to live with lies. It’s called deception. The reason is you. Relieve you were deceived so everyone who believes in God have been deceived. You are a horrible person.

Not at all.

If you need to grovel in front of an Imaginary Sky PIxie to be a good person, you are probably not a good person.

As far as if Joseph had one or more girls sealed to him, they were never married because that would be illegal. And, they did not have sex unless later they were married. So, you are again deceiving others because the concept of sealing doesn’t fit your desire to destroy people’s beliefs in God.

Or I just recognize Smith for what he was... a two bit con man who realized that religion was an easier con than selling dousing rods to find gold. Once he realized he could get less smart people to hand over their money, asking them to hand over their teen daughters was just the next step. Kind of like Jim Jones and David Koresh did.

Your story about your mom is just a way to give yourself the opportunity to sin the way you want to. So, did you ever have sex with someone under 18? Even as a teen yourself? Statutory rape? Grow up. Humble yourself in sight of the Lord and he will lift you up.

Nope, I never had sex with anyone younger than 18.

Obviously, the law takes into account that if two teens have sex, they aren't doing anything illegal.

Joseph Smith was a 34 year old man having sex with 14 year olds. That is considerably worse. The people at the time thought so, two, which is why this happened.

 

[JoeB131]

See you complicated it again. The Francher party declared they came to wipe out Mormons. One man was executed for this crime. Mormons did not break laws. They are not evil at all. They did carve from a territory a state. It still exists.

No, nobody in the Francher party said that.

Where are you learning these lies?

Mountain Meadows Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south along the Mormon Road, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. As the party was traveling west there were rumors about the party's behavior towards Mormon settlers and war hysteria towards outsiders was rampant as a result of a military expedition dispatched by President Buchanan, and Territorial Governor Brigham Young's declaration of martial law in response.[3][4][5] While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, local militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train. The leaders of the militia, wanting to give the impression of tribal hostilities, persuaded Southern Paiutes to join with a larger party of militiamen disguised as Native Americans in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train, the emigrants fought back, and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually, fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of the white men, likely discerning the actual identity of a majority of the attackers. As a result, militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants. By this time, the emigrants were running low on water and provisions, and allowed some members of the militia – who approached under a white flag – to enter their camp. The militia members assured the emigrants they were protected, and after handing over their weapons, the emigrants were escorted away from their defensive position. After walking a distance from the camp, the militiamen, with the help of auxiliary forces hiding nearby, attacked the emigrants. The perpetrators killed all the adults and older children in the group, in the end sparing only seventeen young children under the age of seven.[a]

 

[Robert W]

No, nobody in the Francher party said that.

Where are you learning these lies?

Mountain Meadows Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south along the Mormon Road, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. As the party was traveling west there were rumors about the party's behavior towards Mormon settlers and war hysteria towards outsiders was rampant as a result of a military expedition dispatched by President Buchanan, and Territorial Governor Brigham Young's declaration of martial law in response.[3][4][5] While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, local militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train. The leaders of the militia, wanting to give the impression of tribal hostilities, persuaded Southern Paiutes to join with a larger party of militiamen disguised as Native Americans in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train, the emigrants fought back, and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually, fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of the white men, likely discerning the actual identity of a majority of the attackers. As a result, militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants. By this time, the emigrants were running low on water and provisions, and allowed some members of the militia – who approached under a white flag – to enter their camp. The militia members assured the emigrants they were protected, and after handing over their weapons, the emigrants were escorted away from their defensive position. After walking a distance from the camp, the militiamen, with the help of auxiliary forces hiding nearby, attacked the emigrants. The perpetrators killed all the adults and older children in the group, in the end sparing only seventeen young children under the age of seven.[a]

There is the account written down and finished the day they executed the Mormon they blamed. He told the story I tell you all here. He was hunted as I recall for about 20 years and then he was tried and executed at the site of the massacre. Read that story and not Wikipedia. Notice I did not deny the issue about the tribes. I followed this story all over Utah and parts of Nevada. Notice William Dame was not executed. I have not denied there was a massacre.

 

[JoeB131]

There is the account written down and finished the day they executed the Mormon they blamed. He told the story I tell you all here. He was hunted as I recall for about 20 years and then he was tried and executed at the site of the massacre. Read that story and not Wikipedia. Notice I did not deny the issue about the tribes. I followed this story all over Utah and parts of Nevada. Notice William Dame was not executed. I have not denied there was a massacre.

Yes, John Lee was made the scapegoat to protect everyone else.

That he made up some claim that these women and children were out to kill Mormons is an outright lie, and even a court of Mormons didn't believe him. (And those fuckers will believe ANYTHING!!!)

 

[Robert W]

Yes, John Lee was made the scapegoat to protect everyone else.

That he made up some claim that these women and children were out to kill Mormons is an outright lie, and even a court of Mormons didn't believe him. (And those fuckers will believe ANYTHING!!!)

They believed due to statement the Fanchers made in Salt Lake City that they were a danger to the Mormons at Cedar City Utah and local areas. Mormons do not believe everything. It is your willingness to lie that is the problem here. Where you have been correct, I have agreed. But you talk as If I know nothing at all about that massacre. Read the account of Lee and get the actual picture. I was a bit shocked at his admissions.

 

[JoeB131]

They believed due to statement the Fanchers made in Salt Lake City that they were a danger to the Mormons at Cedar City Utah and local areas. Mormons do not believe everything. It is your willingness to lie that is the problem here. Where you have been correct, I have agreed. But you talk as If I know nothing at all about that massacre. Read the account of Lee and get the actual picture. I was a bit shocked at his admissions.

Oh, I am sure you've heard whatever horseshit your cult spews out about it... but it doesn't make it anything other than a ruthless massacre of innocent civilians.

 

[Cougarbear]

Not at all.

If you need to grovel in front of an Imaginary Sky PIxie to be a good person, you are probably not a good person.



Or I just recognize Smith for what he was... a two bit con man who realized that religion was an easier con than selling dousing rods to find gold. Once he realized he could get less smart people to hand over their money, asking them to hand over their teen daughters was just the next step. Kind of like Jim Jones and David Koresh did.


Nope, I never had sex with anyone younger than 18.

Obviously, the law takes into account that if two teens have sex, they aren't doing anything illegal.

Joseph Smith was a 34 year old man having sex with 14 year olds. That is considerably worse. The people at the time thought so, two, which is why this happened.

View attachment 951499

Again, no proof. Why do you lie? The woman herself said over and over you are a liar. What is it with atheists that they have to resort to lies? You are a horrible person. You do t have to believe in God . That’s your decision to use your mother, a believer in God, as your scapegoat. Horrible person.

 

[Robert W]

Oh, I am sure you've heard whatever horseshit your cult spews out about it... but it doesn't make it anything other than a ruthless massacre of innocent civilians.

Why are you being an ass? My cult? My cult spews? I told you it was the executed man who wrote as his final words what took place. Lee was not just a nobody. He accepted his death in fact though he did claim he was not guilty. He sat on his coffin to be killed. I have called it a massacre. I have told facts you do not know. And you seem bound and determined to stay ignorant. I spent some hours studying this very issue in the past months. I knew there had been a massacre but found it was bugging me about it to the point I put forth a lot of effort to untangle it. I have not at any point justified their murders. I have not said they were guilty. I reported what was stated at the time it took place. If they lied, they lied. It takes time to learn the entire story. And you seem unwilling to do that.