Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero

[JakeStarkey]

I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion. McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career. That is simply not at question.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I honestly thought this thread was started as some bizarre attention getting ploy. It seems, because of your persistance, that you are serious. OK.

I'm still not sure why you chose to ressurect McCarthy but I'll continue to play along because I too am serious about my opposition to the venture.

Perhaps the debate would be better framed in context if layed over the diffferences of public and government mindset of the times between then and now.

If you think the Americans came together over 9/11 you might well compare our resolve and back to the wall fear as a cub scout sleep over to the all consuming dedication to defeating the Axis. Our country wasn't completely threatened by Al Qaeda. The Japs and the Germans were a real threat to take over the world. They damn near pulled it off. The time frame was similar as now in that it was only a few years ago as 9/11 is to our times.

We felt betrayed by the commies. Then they got nukes. The soviets were willing to sacrifice millions defending their homeland which was not lost on us. The whole cold war thing was shaping up as a horrible never ending nightmare of potential instant annihilation with madmen hovering over hair triggers.

I don't dispute the absolute necessity at the time to ferret out spies. What was heinous was McCarthy's methods and grandstanding.

We were trying to get back to being Americans. It was just months since the Japonese Americans were released from internment camps. McCarthy's ranting and ravings was turning us back into the monsters defending our own lives. His efforts reached out much farther than the senate hearings. They gave official liscense to jingoism that did in fact ruin many innocents lives. I think the most disturbing aspect of this sad revival is yours and others attempts to deny the harm.

Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?

Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!

Once again, they turned China over to Mao! They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!

This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs

Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise. I repeat. They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed. As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government. "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did. I had many conversations with him. He was not some crazy reactionary. He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon. I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived. Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts. We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

 

[Gadawg73]

Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?

Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!

Once again, they turned China over to Mao! They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!

This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs

Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise. I repeat. They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed. As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government. "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did. I had many conversations with him. He was not some crazy reactionary. He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon. I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived. Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts. We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?

 

[HUGGY]

Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?

Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!

Once again, they turned China over to Mao! They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!

This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs

Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise. I repeat. They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed. As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government. "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did. I had many conversations with him. He was not some crazy reactionary. He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon. I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived. Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts. We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

CC...you have it backwards as usual. In the OP the bar was set at "Hero". I don't have to prove McCarthy was a monster..although relative to the times..he was. You should try to take into account that there was no way for anyone to confront him in public to defend themselves. That is a huge difference from today or even 20 years ago. You cannot compare his actions to people today. You might say that a Karl Rove's Push poll in N. Carolina during the Bush primary that accused John McCain of fathering a black baby was no different. Taken at face value it probably wasn't. Your problem with me is that I was there and you were not. In todays environment he would just be laughed at like Glenn Beck or Sara Palin. Back then the access to media was highly controlled. Not just a little..I mean totally. Perception was everything. Once a rumor got started and someone was branded an enemy of our country fairly or not it was impossible to clear ones name. Christ in those days a personal telephone line was an extreme priviledge. There was no re-dress. No letters to the paper..nothing. People didn't have much to go on..rumor was fact. There was a much higher bar gentlemen considered before slandering someone. It seems you and Frankie are trying to place McCarthy in our environment comparable to what we have today..somehow to show what he did was no big deal....and in fact he did our country a service. Well that could have been true if he did his investigations behind closed doors and nothing was released to the public until after a fair trial for those accused.

He was reckless. He was no hero. Maybe you will never get it how things were. I cannot get in your head and show you. All I can tell you is that my republican family hated him for what he did. You will not be able to change what I know as fact.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise. I repeat. They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed. As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government. "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did. I had many conversations with him. He was not some crazy reactionary. He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon. I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived. Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts. We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?

Whatever makes you think that my argument would in any way include any of your ignorant, uninformed opinions of McCarthy as a person or his actions?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise. I repeat. They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed. As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government. "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did. I had many conversations with him. He was not some crazy reactionary. He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon. I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived. Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts. We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

CC...you have it backwards as usual. In the OP the bar was set at "Hero". I don't have to prove McCarthy was a monster..although relative to the times..he was. You should try to take into account that there was no way for anyone to confront him in public to defend themselves. That is a huge difference from today or even 20 years ago. You cannot compare his actions to people today. You might say that a Karl Rove's Push poll in N. Carolina during the Bush primary that accused John McCain of fathering a black baby was no different. Taken at face value it probably wasn't. Your problem with me is that I was there and you were not. In todays environment he would just be laughed at like Glenn Beck or Sara Palin. Back then the access to media was highly controlled. Not just a little..I mean totally. Perception was everything. Once a rumor got started and someone was branded an enemy of our country fairly or not it was impossible to clear ones name. Christ in those days a personal telephone line was an extreme priviledge. There was no re-dress. No letters to the paper..nothing. People didn't have much to go on..rumor was fact. There was a much higher bar gentlemen considered before slandering someone. It seems you and Frankie are trying to place McCarthy in our environment comparable to what we have today..somehow to show what he did was no big deal....and in fact he did our country a service. Well that could have been true if he did his investigations behind closed doors and nothing was released to the public until after a fair trial for those accused.

He was reckless. He was no hero. Maybe you will never get it how things were. I cannot get in your head and show you. All I can tell you is that my republican family hated him for what he did. You will not be able to change what I know as fact.

In other words, you believe that you get to hurl unfounded, unspecified accusations, and we're supposed to prove you wrong, despite the fact that you refuse to actually list anything for us to prove wrong?

Try again.

Oh, and no one said that what he did was "no big deal". We contend that it WAS a very big deal, just not the one your lies say it was.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cecilie1200, you have no defense of worth, period. The facts are the facts, and your goofiness on this subject changes none of that. Joseph McCarthy was a danger to the Republic and his own party conservatives pulled him down. Those are the facts, and it doesn't matter how you worry them. Your arguments have become chew toys here. Your post above landed just before mine, and your response is excellent validation for what I have just posted. That you won't admit the facts mean absolutely nothing to thinking, clear-headed individuals.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion. McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career. That is simply not at question.

Who Zero Mostel? Can you name someone at State that was harmed by McCarthy?

Why do Progressives reflexively defend Communists even after they've admitted they placed spies at State Department?

Why?

Can you explain why you refuse to accept that the Soviets spies did great damage to this country?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion. McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career. That is simply not at question.

Who Zero Mostel? Can you name someone at State that was harmed by McCarthy?

Why do Progressives reflexively defend Communists even after they've admitted they placed spies at State Department?

Why?

Can you explain why you refuse to accept that the Soviets spies did great damage to this country?

Oh, WELL, if YOU back up Huggy's vague, unspecified, ignorant claims, then that's all the proof we need, isn't it?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The vagues are clear, exact, and cogent. Your interpretation of them, Cecilie1200, are not. End of discussion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The vagues are clear, exact, and cogent. Your interpretation of them, Cecilie1200, are not. End of discussion.

Why am I not surprised that you have yet again tried to use "Because I said so, so there" in place of actually proving your argument?

If Joseph McCarthy had actually ruined any innocent lives, you'd have named 'em by now, so you're right about one thing. The discussion is over. You lost.

 

[Gadawg73]

Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever. Interesting. Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.

Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?

Whatever makes you think that my argument would in any way include any of your ignorant, uninformed opinions of McCarthy as a person or his actions?

Is it you are incapable of making any argument in defense of your claims, which your dodge above clearly illustrates, or are you finally admitting that any and all of your arguments are without facts?
Which is it?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.

The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.

The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.

"Cause I say so" is not an answer, especially not when the Soviets admitted to the spying and the FBI declassified tens of thousands of pages confirming what McCarthy was correct.

You see how silly you look, right?

You're a political Flat Earther

 

[Old Rocks]

Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT

Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:

“At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?”

By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized – as he himself victimized so many others – by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old

In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Mary’s Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name – McCarthyism – was buried with him….or so we believed at the time

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT

Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:

“At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?”

By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized – as he himself victimized so many others – by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old

In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Mary’s Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name – McCarthyism – was buried with him….or so we believed at the time

Once again you Political Flat Earthers have to come to terms with the fact that the Soviets confirmed that McCarthy was correct in his assessment that US State was Moscow West

You like to pretend you have some fleeting interest in science so you should be at least vaguely aware of the concept that when the facts knock the snot out of your theories, its time for new theories.

McCarthy has been completely and totally vindicated

You need to find some support group to help you cope

 

[CrusaderFrank]

McCarthy 1950: US State is overrun with Commies.
Moscow 1995: McCarthy was right

end of story

 

[MajinLink]

McCarthy was a dishonest and horrible individual. He wanted to be anti-soviet which is fine, but he ruined the lives of many innocents, and spat on the 1st amendment.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not one of the so-called "conservatives" here have been able to credibly defend their man Joe. What a piece of garbage he turned America into where ever he walked. Time and again for more than 40 pages, the wannabe-conservatives have fallen on their faces, and still continue in the immorality of stubbornness in front of convincing evidence they are flatly wrong.

 

[HUGGY]

Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.

The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.

"Cause I say so" is not an answer, especially not when the Soviets admitted to the spying and the FBI declassified tens of thousands of pages confirming what McCarthy was correct.

You see how silly you look, right?

You're a political Flat Earther

Swear you have never spent any money in a Walmart or shut your stinking lying hypocritical pie hole about who does or does not support communism.

Just saying....