Seek Peace, Pursue Justice in Israel-Palestine

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Like I said, xenophobes.

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner."

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I've done this several times.

Like I said, xenophobes.

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

(RESTATING)

It says "ALL People." It doesn't say except for immigrants.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

(COMMENT)

At least for 900 years, the Jewish People were invited to immigrate, over and over again, back to their original home in the former Ottoman Empire. They are not "foreigners" in the sense they don't belong. They are returnees. But even if you call them foreigners, that doesn't negate their right of self-determination.

All people have this right, not just Palestinians.

The land in question, didn't fall under Palestinian jurisdiction to start. The intention of the various powers that controlled the territory was to create a Jewish National Home. There were any number of way that could have been accomplished. The implementation was not to the liking of the Arab.

Most of the Arabs got what they wanted. Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, all received satisfaction. A small, disgruntled and dysfunctional band called Palestinians were not satisfied. It happens. Now they grasp at anything to make a case for continued violence. They use laws, covenants, declarations and principles, none of which they had a hand in writing and none of which are actually tenants of Arab countries. They attempt to use western concepts against the western powers that made the decisions on how to apply their concepts.

Well the world isn't perfect. And humans aren't perfect. And sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. The Palestinians didn't get what they wanted, but the other 90% of the Arabs did. And that culture, which the Allied Powers had decided needing special help, a culture that made an effect to be productive, won out.

The Palestinian needs to grow-up and face the realities of humanity. You don't always get what you want. And, you shouldn't attempt to apply western laws, covenants, declarations and principles in a strict compliance fashion. Sometimes, the Allied Powers have to act in order to protect the minority group.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I've done this several times.

Like I said, xenophobes.


(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

(RESTATING)

It says "ALL People." I doesn't say except for immigrants.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

(COMMENT)

At least for 900 years, the Jewish People were invited to immigrate, over and over again, back to their original home in the former Ottoman Empire. They are not "foreigners" in the sense they don't belong. They are returnees. But even if you call them foreigners, that doesn't negate their right of self-determination.

All people have this right, not just Palestinians.

The land in question, didn't fall under Palestinian jurisdiction to start. The intention of the various powers that controlled the territory was to create a Jewish National Home. There were any number of way that could have been accomplished. The implementation was not to the liking of the Arab.

Most of the Arabs got what they wanted. Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, all received satisfaction. A small, disgruntled and dysfunctional band called Palestinians were not satisfied. It happens. Now they grasp at anything to make a case for continued violence. They use laws, covenants, declarations and principles, none of which they had a hand in writing and none of which are actually tenants of Arab countries. They attempt to use western concepts against the western powers that made the decisions on how to apply their concepts.

Well the world isn't perfect. And humans aren't perfect. And sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. The Palestinians didn't get what they wanted, but the other 90% of the Arabs did. And that culture, which the Allied Powers had decided needing special help, a culture that made an effect to be productive, won out.

The Palestinian needs to grow-up and face the realities of humanity. You don't always get what you want. And, you shouldn't attempt to apply western laws, covenants, declarations and principles in a strict compliance fashion. Sometimes, the Allied Powers have to act in order to protect the minority group.

Most Respectfully,
R

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I've done this several times.

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

(RESTATING)

It says "ALL People." I doesn't say except for immigrants.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

(COMMENT)

At least for 900 years, the Jewish People were invited to immigrate, over and over again, back to their original home in the former Ottoman Empire. They are not "foreigners" in the sense they don't belong. They are returnees. But even if you call them foreigners, that doesn't negate their right of self-determination.

All people have this right, not just Palestinians.

The land in question, didn't fall under Palestinian jurisdiction to start. The intention of the various powers that controlled the territory was to create a Jewish National Home. There were any number of way that could have been accomplished. The implementation was not to the liking of the Arab.

Most of the Arabs got what they wanted. Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, all received satisfaction. A small, disgruntled and dysfunctional band called Palestinians were not satisfied. It happens. Now they grasp at anything to make a case for continued violence. They use laws, covenants, declarations and principles, none of which they had a hand in writing and none of which are actually tenants of Arab countries. They attempt to use western concepts against the western powers that made the decisions on how to apply their concepts.

Well the world isn't perfect. And humans aren't perfect. And sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. The Palestinians didn't get what they wanted, but the other 90% of the Arabs did. And that culture, which the Allied Powers had decided needing special help, a culture that made an effect to be productive, won out.

The Palestinian needs to grow-up and face the realities of humanity. You don't always get what you want. And, you shouldn't attempt to apply western laws, covenants, declarations and principles in a strict compliance fashion. Sometimes, the Allied Powers have to act in order to protect the minority group.

Most Respectfully,
R

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

deflection

 

[irosie91]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]



So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

According to the speakers of the foreign language ----in the middle east
----arabic----brought there by the foreigners ----arab invaders-----the
Germans had the right to empire just as did the arab invaders who
speak the foreign language arabic in ---egypt and syria
-------the only book translated into the foreign language ---arabic---
during the entire decade of the 1930s was of the philosophy the
arabic speaking people SUPPORT----to wit MEIN KAMPF

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Mr R. you have never evinced that STREAK OF CRUELTY before.
Please retract your hurful statement and assure Mr Tin that jews came
chugging into into the mediterranean ports-------in Giant Battleships
in 1880 In fact they were IMPORTED ----packed in popcorn---in
large cartons and supplied with machine guns and tanks ----and atom
bombs and supported overhead by bomber jets

don't try that revisionist history with Mr Tin.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Mr R. you have never evinced that STREAK OF CRUELTY before.
Please retract your hurful statement and assure Mr Tin that jews came
chugging into into the mediterranean ports-------in Giant Battleships
in 1880 In fact they were IMPORTED ----packed in popcorn---in
large cartons and supplied with machine guns and tanks ----and atom
bombs and supported overhead by bomber jets

don't try that revisionist history with Mr Tin.

It's a shame that there wasn't some DNA test that the "Palestinians" can take which will tell what country they actually have roots in -- such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc. They are always complaining that the Jews are the foreigners which took over their land so it would be nice to see where they or their ancestors actually came from. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there some Egyptian official recently telling the Gazans to come home to Egypt.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Now you are being silly.

And contradicting yourself.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Now you are being silly.

And contradicting yourself.

How so ???

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

?

Wow! Now you're just being silly.

So the Germans had the right to self determination in Poland?

(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Now you are being silly.

And contradicting yourself.

(QUESTION)


Where or what is the contradiction?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

?

Wow! Now you're just being silly.


(COMMENT)

Poland achieved it final partition from Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795 and recognized independence in 1918. It became its own sovereignty until September 1939, when it was attacked by both Russia and Germany; pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Nonaggression Pact.

The difference here, between the events in Poland and the events in the Mandate, is that unarmed Jewish immigration was encouraged by both the Ottoman Empire (since before 1492) and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence.

Let's not try to suggest that the Jewish immigration, into the Ottoman Empire or under the Mandate, was anything even remotely similar to the German Blitzkrieg (“The Lightning War”) into Poland in September 1939.

Most Respectfully,
R

Now you are being silly.

And contradicting yourself.

(QUESTION)


Where or what is the contradiction?

Most Respectfully,
R

" and authorized immigration (under the Mandate) for all who take on permanent residence. "

 

[ForeverYoung436]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Like I said, xenophobes.

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

Your house is standing on land that used to belong to 500 Indian tribes.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I've answered this question several times.

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Like I said, xenophobes.


(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

Your house is standing on land that used to belong to 500 Indian tribes.

(COMMENT)

Permanent residents are not "foreigners." Israelis are not "foreigners."

"All people" have the right as previously documented.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I've answered this question several times.

Show me something that says foreigners have the right to self determination.

Your house is standing on land that used to belong to 500 Indian tribes.

(COMMENT)

Permanent residents are not "foreigners." Israelis are not "foreigners."

"All people" have the right as previously documented.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are grasping at straws. The only time foreigners are mentioned in the right to self determination is that external (foreign) interference is illegal.

The World Zionist Organization is a foreign organization.
The Jewish Agency is a foreign organization.
Britain is a foreign government.
The "state of Israel" was created in Palestine by foreigners.

 

[irosie91]

tinsy why do you struggle so hard to render
yourself a one trick pony------your semantic trick
gets sillier with time and incessant repetition

 

[P F Tinmore]

tinsy why do you struggle so hard to render
yourself a one trick pony------your semantic trick
gets sillier with time and incessant repetition

The truth is constant. It does not change.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

In a thousand years from now, humanity will still tell stories and pass on the legend of an epic conflict between the forces of good and evil. And among them will be the tale of a time when, for more than a century, the small nation of Israel fought and defended their National Home on ancient ground. --- They will chronicle for posterity, a time when so few stood against so many, surrounded --- many times outnumbered; of a time when the Star of David , faced with an giant dark cult that spread fear and death across the world; of a time when there arose in the sky a shield of light against the Arab and Persian hoard; forged and tempered in the heat of an iron heart --- in the very shadow and legacy of their majestic ancient brethren.

The six points to the shimmering blue Seal of Solomon will survive; as it has done through out the annals of history. It will Endure as an embossed symbol of strength against those Arab and Persian forces that seek to subjugate humanity and dominate the free will proponents of peace. And in the end, the world will be grateful that at least one small nation stood up to be counted; immortalized forever.

You are grasping at straws. The only time foreigners are mentioned in the right to self determination is that external (foreign) interference is illegal.

The World Zionist Organization is a foreign organization.
The Jewish Agency is a foreign organization.
Britain is a foreign government.
The "state of Israel" was created in Palestine by foreigners.

(COMMENT)

What you perceive as foreign interference is really the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the Mandate of Palestine. Together, they implemented a plan to establish a Jewish National Home which culminated in the creation of the State of Israel.

Your interpretation of "external = foreign" is incorrect. If they wanted to say "foreign," they would have said "foreign." The concept of foreign powers (state and non-state actors) was well known. Instead they chose a more overarching term; "external." And the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the Mandatory over Palestine are not externals; nor is anything in their power to introduce under derivative authority.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

tinsy why do you struggle so hard to render
yourself a one trick pony------your semantic trick
gets sillier with time and incessant repetition

The truth is constant. It does not change.

And what 'truth' are you currently referring to ?

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

In a thousand years from now, humanity will still tell stories and pass on the legend of an epic conflict between the forces of good and evil. And among them will be the tale of a time when, for more than a century, the small nation of Israel fought and defended their National Home on ancient ground. --- They will chronicle for posterity, a time when so few stood against so many, surrounded --- many times outnumbered; of a time when the Star of David , faced with an giant dark cult that spread fear and death across the world; of a time when there arose in the sky a shield of light against the Arab and Persian hoard; forged and tempered in the heat of an iron heart --- in the very shadow and legacy of their majestic ancient brethren.

The six points to the shimmering blue Seal of Solomon will survive; as it has done through out the annals of history. It will Endure as an embossed symbol of strength against those Arab and Persian forces that seek to subjugate humanity and dominate the free will proponents of peace. And in the end, the world will be grateful that at least one small nation stood up to be counted; immortalized forever.

You are grasping at straws. The only time foreigners are mentioned in the right to self determination is that external (foreign) interference is illegal.

The World Zionist Organization is a foreign organization.
The Jewish Agency is a foreign organization.
Britain is a foreign government.
The "state of Israel" was created in Palestine by foreigners.

(COMMENT)

What you perceive as foreign interference is really the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the Mandate of Palestine. Together, they implemented a plan to establish a Jewish National Home which culminated in the creation of the State of Israel.

Your interpretation of "external = foreign" is incorrect. If they wanted to say "foreign," they would have said "foreign." The concept of foreign powers (state and non-state actors) was well known. Instead they chose a more overarching term; "external." And the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the Mandatory over Palestine are not externals; nor is anything in their power to introduce under derivative authority.

Most Respectfully,
R

Well said Rocco !!!