Seek Peace, Pursue Justice in Israel-Palestine

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is just an over simplification of the immigration and migration of the Jewish people. But I do recognize that it would be very hard to describe a trek that spans over two millennium in this brief discussion. But in the last 900 years, there were surge periods where vast numbers of Jews returned to the region.

There were two types of immigrants. Some went to Palestine on their own to live and die in the holy land.

The others were imported by the foreign World Zionist Organization as part of their plan to take over the country.

The vast majority were imported by the Zionists.

(COMMENT)

First among the surge periods, are the two great migrations in the time of early to mid 1400's when Fatih Sultan Mehmed and Sultan Bayezid II, invited and encouraged the out cast Jews to the Empire. Which I've already mentioned. In one period, Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis and his forces, granted safe passage and escort to over a million Jewish immigrants back to the safety of the Empire. There were approximately 600,000 Spanish Jews, not counting another 100,000 from Portugal, and from the Netherlands, Italy, and Central Europe, 150,000 people. That is not taking into account the migration landward.

There was a second surge, in the mid to late 1800's during the reign of Sultan Abdulmecid. During the period called the "Blood Libel," Mohammed Ali out of Syria and Palestine restarting new Jewish immigration effort into Ottoman Palestine District. And it was Sultan Abdul Aziz who allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs.

The third surge (early 1900's) was following Ottoman territorial losses in the Balkans and the Berlin Treaty. There was a mass migration of Turks and Jews into the Empire, more than 200,000 Jewish immigrants just from Russia alone; into the south east Region know as Palestine. Then WWI breaks-out.

The Mandate of Palestine marks the beginning of the Fourth Surge.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is just an over simplification of the immigration and migration of the Jewish people. But I do recognize that it would be very hard to describe a trek that spans over two millennium in this brief discussion. But in the last 900 years, there were surge periods where vast numbers of Jews returned to the region.

There were two types of immigrants. Some went to Palestine on their own to live and die in the holy land.

The others were imported by the foreign World Zionist Organization as part of their plan to take over the country.

The vast majority were imported by the Zionists.

(COMMENT)

First among the surge periods, are the two great migrations in the time of early to mid 1400's when Fatih Sultan Mehmed and Sultan Bayezid II, invited and encouraged the out cast Jews to the Empire. Which I've already mentioned. In one period, Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis and his forces, granted safe passage and escort to over a million Jewish immigrants back to the safety of the Empire. There were approximately 600,000 Spanish Jews, not counting another 100,000 from Portugal, and from the Netherlands, Italy, and Central Europe, 150,000 people. That is not taking into account the migration landward.

There was a second surge, in the mid to late 1800's during the reign of Sultan Abdulmecid. During the period called the "Blood Libel," Mohammed Ali out of Syria and Palestine restarting new Jewish immigration effort into Ottoman Palestine District. And it was Sultan Abdul Aziz who allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs.

The third surge (early 1900's) was following Ottoman territorial losses in the Balkans and the Berlin Treaty. There was a mass migration of Turks and Jews into the Empire, more than 200,000 Jewish immigrants just from Russia alone; into the south east Region know as Palestine. Then WWI breaks-out.

The Mandate of Palestine marks the beginning of the Fourth Surge.

Most Respectfully,
R

From what I've read, many Arabs from neighboring countries migrated to Palestine for employment opportunities created by the Jews. That is what Churchill wrote.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I don't think so!

Agreed.

The right to self determination exists without statehood. An independent state is the result of self determination not a prerequisite.

Palestine continued to exist inside its international borders after the end of the mandate.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't help your argument. The Israelis exercised their right to self-determination. The Palestinians and Arabs attempted to interfere with that right. They went right to war; not attempting in any way to refrain from threats of force --- but to actually use force to suppress the right of self-determination by the Jewish Population.

The right to self determination applies to the natives not to foreigners who were imported to take over the country.

(COMMENT)

This is your unique interpretation. But the UN definition doesn't say that at all.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

It doen't specify a particular kind of people. Particularly since immigration was a consequence of making a national home.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

Nice duck

Tinmore's not ducking. The problem is that he has found all the flaws in the original findings and decisions and won't tell anyone what they are. He also won't tell anyone in simple plain English and never says "Simon Sez". Another thing he does is having his fingers crossed behind his back when he spouts his mewlings. Just like an 8 year old.

His continuous denial makes him to be such a sore loser. He can't admit he lost every argument with Rocco. I'm starting to think he is the baby in his avatar, not the old man

What kind of person would parade a baby's image on a newsboard to gain sympathy? These Pali supporters have no shame or morals. Just when I thought I've seen it all, they surprise me yet again with what they are willing to do to get somebody to agree with their lies.

 

[Roudy]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is just an over simplification of the immigration and migration of the Jewish people. But I do recognize that it would be very hard to describe a trek that spans over two millennium in this brief discussion. But in the last 900 years, there were surge periods where vast numbers of Jews returned to the region.

There were two types of immigrants. Some went to Palestine on their own to live and die in the holy land.

The others were imported by the foreign World Zionist Organization as part of their plan to take over the country.

The vast majority were imported by the Zionists.

(COMMENT)

First among the surge periods, are the two great migrations in the time of early to mid 1400's when Fatih Sultan Mehmed and Sultan Bayezid II, invited and encouraged the out cast Jews to the Empire. Which I've already mentioned. In one period, Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis and his forces, granted safe passage and escort to over a million Jewish immigrants back to the safety of the Empire. There were approximately 600,000 Spanish Jews, not counting another 100,000 from Portugal, and from the Netherlands, Italy, and Central Europe, 150,000 people. That is not taking into account the migration landward.

There was a second surge, in the mid to late 1800's during the reign of Sultan Abdulmecid. During the period called the "Blood Libel," Mohammed Ali out of Syria and Palestine restarting new Jewish immigration effort into Ottoman Palestine District. And it was Sultan Abdul Aziz who allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs.

The third surge (early 1900's) was following Ottoman territorial losses in the Balkans and the Berlin Treaty. There was a mass migration of Turks and Jews into the Empire, more than 200,000 Jewish immigrants just from Russia alone; into the south east Region know as Palestine. Then WWI breaks-out.

The Mandate of Palestine marks the beginning of the Fourth Surge.

Most Respectfully,
R

And then there was another surge of Arab invaders from neighboring lands (enhanced by the British to change the demographics to favor the Arabs) who invaded mainly because of the jobs and opportunity that were brought about by the Jews who were rebuilding a land devastated by the Arabs not to mention Muslim negligence and disrespect to other faiths.

And that they did.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is just an over simplification of the immigration and migration of the Jewish people. But I do recognize that it would be very hard to describe a trek that spans over two millennium in this brief discussion. But in the last 900 years, there were surge periods where vast numbers of Jews returned to the region.

There were two types of immigrants. Some went to Palestine on their own to live and die in the holy land.

The others were imported by the foreign World Zionist Organization as part of their plan to take over the country.

The vast majority were imported by the Zionists.

(COMMENT)

First among the surge periods, are the two great migrations in the time of early to mid 1400's when Fatih Sultan Mehmed and Sultan Bayezid II, invited and encouraged the out cast Jews to the Empire. Which I've already mentioned. In one period, Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis and his forces, granted safe passage and escort to over a million Jewish immigrants back to the safety of the Empire. There were approximately 600,000 Spanish Jews, not counting another 100,000 from Portugal, and from the Netherlands, Italy, and Central Europe, 150,000 people. That is not taking into account the migration landward.

There was a second surge, in the mid to late 1800's during the reign of Sultan Abdulmecid. During the period called the "Blood Libel," Mohammed Ali out of Syria and Palestine restarting new Jewish immigration effort into Ottoman Palestine District. And it was Sultan Abdul Aziz who allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs.

The third surge (early 1900's) was following Ottoman territorial losses in the Balkans and the Berlin Treaty. There was a mass migration of Turks and Jews into the Empire, more than 200,000 Jewish immigrants just from Russia alone; into the south east Region know as Palestine. Then WWI breaks-out.

The Mandate of Palestine marks the beginning of the Fourth Surge.

Most Respectfully,
R

From what I've read, many Arabs from neighboring countries migrated to Palestine for employment opportunities created by the Jews. That is what Churchill wrote.

I'm in a conundrum here. A state of confusion. I would like to believe Ol' Winnie but Ol' Tinnie says he's a liar and a drunk. What to do, what to do, what to do!

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is just an over simplification of the immigration and migration of the Jewish people. But I do recognize that it would be very hard to describe a trek that spans over two millennium in this brief discussion. But in the last 900 years, there were surge periods where vast numbers of Jews returned to the region.


(COMMENT)

First among the surge periods, are the two great migrations in the time of early to mid 1400's when Fatih Sultan Mehmed and Sultan Bayezid II, invited and encouraged the out cast Jews to the Empire. Which I've already mentioned. In one period, Turkish Admiral Kemal Reis and his forces, granted safe passage and escort to over a million Jewish immigrants back to the safety of the Empire. There were approximately 600,000 Spanish Jews, not counting another 100,000 from Portugal, and from the Netherlands, Italy, and Central Europe, 150,000 people. That is not taking into account the migration landward.

There was a second surge, in the mid to late 1800's during the reign of Sultan Abdulmecid. During the period called the "Blood Libel," Mohammed Ali out of Syria and Palestine restarting new Jewish immigration effort into Ottoman Palestine District. And it was Sultan Abdul Aziz who allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs.

The third surge (early 1900's) was following Ottoman territorial losses in the Balkans and the Berlin Treaty. There was a mass migration of Turks and Jews into the Empire, more than 200,000 Jewish immigrants just from Russia alone; into the south east Region know as Palestine. Then WWI breaks-out.

The Mandate of Palestine marks the beginning of the Fourth Surge.

Most Respectfully,
R

From what I've read, many Arabs from neighboring countries migrated to Palestine for employment opportunities created by the Jews. That is what Churchill wrote.

I'm in a conundrum here. A state of confusion. I would like to believe Ol' Winnie but Ol' Tinnie says he's a liar and a drunk. What to do, what to do, what to do!

Not to mention that the voters bounced him the first election after the war.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I don't think so!

Agreed.


(COMMENT)

This doesn't help your argument. The Israelis exercised their right to self-determination. The Palestinians and Arabs attempted to interfere with that right. They went right to war; not attempting in any way to refrain from threats of force --- but to actually use force to suppress the right of self-determination by the Jewish Population.

The right to self determination applies to the natives not to foreigners who were imported to take over the country.

(COMMENT)

This is your unique interpretation. But the UN definition doesn't say that at all.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

It doen't specify a particular kind of people. Particularly since immigration was a consequence of making a national home.

Most Respectfully,
R

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I don't think so!

The right to self determination applies to the natives not to foreigners who were imported to take over the country.

(COMMENT)

This is your unique interpretation. But the UN definition doesn't say that at all.

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists.​

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

YOUR SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

It doen't specify a particular kind of people. Particularly since immigration was a consequence of making a national home.

Most Respectfully,
R

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

Except that the Jews aren't foreigners. Just recently a fortress of King David's was discovered in the West Bank. I was last in Israel 3 months ago, and saw the archaelogists working right next to the Western Wall. Have to admit I got goosebumps.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

I don't think so!


(COMMENT)

This is your unique interpretation. But the UN definition doesn't say that at all.



It doen't specify a particular kind of people. Particularly since immigration was a consequence of making a national home.

Most Respectfully,
R

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

Except that the Jews aren't foreigners. Just recently a fortress of King David's was discovered in the West Bank. I was last in Israel 3 months ago, and saw the archaelogists working right next to the Western Wall. Have to admit I got goosebumps.

You can't just say "the Jews."

Some were natives. Most were not.

 

[toastman]

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

Except that the Jews aren't foreigners. Just recently a fortress of King David's was discovered in the West Bank. I was last in Israel 3 months ago, and saw the archaelogists working right next to the Western Wall. Have to admit I got goosebumps.

You can't just say "the Jews."

Some were natives. Most were not.

What about the refugees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan who migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine. Wouldn't they be considered foreigners too ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Except that the Jews aren't foreigners. Just recently a fortress of King David's was discovered in the West Bank. I was last in Israel 3 months ago, and saw the archaelogists working right next to the Western Wall. Have to admit I got goosebumps.

You can't just say "the Jews."

Some were natives. Most were not.

What about the refugees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan who migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine. Wouldn't they be considered foreigners too ?

Did they acquire Palestinian citizenship?

 

[toastman]

You can't just say "the Jews."

Some were natives. Most were not.

What about the refugees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan who migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine. Wouldn't they be considered foreigners too ?

Did they acquire Palestinian citizenship?

Good question I'm not sure. I'd have to look into that

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I see this quite often, where the pro-Palestinians attempt to insist that the Israeli doesn't have a right to self-determination.

It is essential to the pro-Arab/Palestinian argument that the Arab/Palestinian distinguish themselves as having some special rights and ties to the land, that no immigrant can have.

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

• Israelis are people.
• Israelis are inhabitants.
• The first generation of Israelis are indigenous.

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner." It is a form of Xenophobia that fosters a discrimination against the Jewish immigrant.

The World Conference on Human Rights urges all Governments to take immediate measures and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and manifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation, including penal measures, and by the establishment of national institutions to combat such phenomena.

SOURCE: Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action

I often have to chuckle when I see pro-Palestinian arguments that in one breath, cling to these Human Rights Issues and principles --- and in the next breath, become xenophobic to the point that they write a Charter essentially condemning the Israeli and challenge the inalienable rights they claim for themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

What!

You can't just say "the Jews."

Some were natives. Most were not.

What about the refugees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan who migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine. Wouldn't they be considered foreigners too ?

Did they acquire Palestinian citizenship?

(COMMENT)

No such thing!

The UK under Article 7, exercised Nationality Law. In that there was, under the Mandatory --- the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order. But that is not the same thing in what you are talking about here. That is just the name the Mandatory assigned it. You still got a UK Passport.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

Just so there is no mistake on what I'm saying.

P F Tinmore; et al,

What!

What about the refugees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan who migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine. Wouldn't they be considered foreigners too ?

Did they acquire Palestinian citizenship?

(COMMENT)

No such thing!

The UK under Article 7, exercised Nationality Law. In that there was, under the Mandatory --- the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order. But that is not the same thing in what you are talking about here. That is just the name the Mandatory assigned it. You still got a UK Passport.

Most Respectfully,
R

(CLARIFICATION)

Under the Mandate, both the Jewish immigrant and the Arab must be treated equally. Thus, each was registered exactly the same. But this does not imply that there was a State of Palestine.

It was done to comply with international law for travel between nations.

Neat Article: The creation of Palestinian citizenship under an international mandate: 1918-1925 | openDemocracy

BTW: The Palestinian fought this as well.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

Just so there is no mistake on what I'm saying.

P F Tinmore; et al,

What!

Did they acquire Palestinian citizenship?

(COMMENT)

No such thing!

The UK under Article 7, exercised Nationality Law. In that there was, under the Mandatory --- the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order. But that is not the same thing in what you are talking about here. That is just the name the Mandatory assigned it. You still got a UK Passport.

Most Respectfully,
R

(CLARIFICATION)

Under the Mandate, both the Jewish immigrant and the Arab must be treated equally. Thus, each was registered exactly the same. But this does not imply that there was a State of Palestine.

It was done to comply with international law for travel between nations.

Neat Article: The creation of Palestinian citizenship under an international mandate: 1918-1925 | openDemocracy

BTW: The Palestinian fought this as well.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the link.

The creation of Palestinian citizenship under an international mandate: 1918-1925 | openDemocracy

This proves my previous comment was correct that Britain violated the LoN covenant, Its own mandate, and the rights of the Palestinians.

Of course these violations do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I see this quite often, where the pro-Palestinians attempt to insist that the Israeli doesn't have a right to self-determination.

It is essential to the pro-Arab/Palestinian argument that the Arab/Palestinian distinguish themselves as having some special rights and ties to the land, that no immigrant can have.

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

• Israelis are people.
• Israelis are inhabitants.
• The first generation of Israelis are indigenous.

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner." It is a form of Xenophobia that fosters a discrimination against the Jewish immigrant.

The World Conference on Human Rights urges all Governments to take immediate measures and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and manifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation, including penal measures, and by the establishment of national institutions to combat such phenomena.

SOURCE: Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action

I often have to chuckle when I see pro-Palestinian arguments that in one breath, cling to these Human Rights Issues and principles --- and in the next breath, become xenophobic to the point that they write a Charter essentially condemning the Israeli and challenge the inalienable rights they claim for themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner."

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Like I said, xenophobes.

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner."

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

(COMMENT)

This doesn't mean that they lose their right to self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore; et al,[/I]

Yes, I see this quite often, where the pro-Palestinians attempt to insist that the Israeli doesn't have a right to self-determination.

It is essential to the pro-Arab/Palestinian argument that the Arab/Palestinian distinguish themselves as having some special rights and ties to the land, that no immigrant can have.

Whenever self determination is mentioned the people with that right are called the people, the inhabitants, the natives, or the indigenous. I can't see where any of these are a reference to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

• Israelis are people.
• Israelis are inhabitants.
• The first generation of Israelis are indigenous.

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner." It is a form of Xenophobia that fosters a discrimination against the Jewish immigrant.



I often have to chuckle when I see pro-Palestinian arguments that in one breath, cling to these Human Rights Issues and principles --- and in the next breath, become xenophobic to the point that they write a Charter essentially condemning the Israeli and challenge the inalienable rights they claim for themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinian, in an attempt to discredit Israelis, have latched onto the concept that Israelis are from outside the regional group or community; a "foreigner."

Indeed. Out of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants.

So, the Palestinians are correct. Foreigners.

What's that got to do with the price of ash trays in Sicily?