Scotland Was Allowed To Vote On Secession. Why Can't The American States?

[Dr.Traveler]

The Southern documents of Secession all argue in favor of slavery. You pretty much lose the moral high ground right there. Which by the way, is a huge reason the South lost. Europe wouldn't have minded jumping in and seeing the US split but the South's pro-Slavery stance pretty much ended any hope that would happen.

That's why lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation. It didn't free a single slave since it only applied to the south, not the slave owning states in the north. The EP didn't fool anyone in america but it did in yurp.

Mostly true. History has shown Lincoln wanted something like the EP much earlier, but held off out of concerns he'd lose the border states that still were slave holding. The EP was a calculated risk: It kept the Europeans out of the war, but the actual policy follow through kept slavery around in the border states throughout the War.

 

[MaxGrit]

[
Lincoln and the Yankee carpet baggers are the ones who did all the oppressing.

The Southern documents of Secession all argue in favor of slavery. You pretty much lose the moral high ground right there. Which by the way, is a huge reason the South lost. Europe wouldn't have minded jumping in and seeing the US split but the South's pro-Slavery stance pretty much ended any hope that would happen.

It doesn't matter what the Southern documents of secession say. The bottom line is that Lincoln did not invade the South to end slavery. Secession did not start the war. Lincoln started the war when he blockaded Southern ports and invaded Virginia.

As usual, the Lincoln apologists all post the same old shopworn arguments, and they're all full of shit.

Serious questions: When two sides go to war, do you think they really go to war for the same reason?

Yep, Lincoln didn't invade to stop Slavery any more than the rank and file poor white Southerner fought to uphold Slavery. However, the Southern Diplomats that led the South into war most certainly DID secede to protect the institution of slavery. It says so in their own secession documents.

That absolutely cost the South the moral high ground in the eyes of Europe and pretty much doomed the Confederacy out of the gate. Mathematically, they could never win the Civil War. Every single metric you can come up with for military power favored the North. Every Single One. And while Lincoln didn't invade to stop Slavery, the Northern population as a whole had a huge feeling of moral superiority thanks to the South's defense of that reprehensible institution.

When you're in a weaker military position you win in one of two ways:
1. Outside intervention: Never was going to happen thanks to Europe's stance on Slavery.
2. Crush morale: Never going to happen as the North always felt justified crushing the South to dust thanks to Slavery.

I know you want to think Slavery had nothing at all to do with the Civil War. You are absolutely wrong. It was a huge political and moral weapon for the North, and for the Southern leaders it was front and center as a reason to secede.

good

Lincoln was necessary to make sure that the South got crushed.

 

[MaxGrit]

\
If there are no rules then there would have to be legal agreements made between the two parties. Armed rebellion is simply treason.

In other words the Southern states would have to get Lincoln to "agree" to let them secede - something he had no intention of doing.

Go **** yourself.

You don't make a "legal agreement" with someone who's holding a gun to your head.

Die or Serve.

Your choice.

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

 

[bripat9643]

[
Lincoln and the Yankee carpet baggers are the ones who did all the oppressing.

The Southern documents of Secession all argue in favor of slavery. You pretty much lose the moral high ground right there. Which by the way, is a huge reason the South lost. Europe wouldn't have minded jumping in and seeing the US split but the South's pro-Slavery stance pretty much ended any hope that would happen.

It doesn't matter what the Southern documents of secession say. The bottom line is that Lincoln did not invade the South to end slavery. Secession did not start the war. Lincoln started the war when he blockaded Southern ports and invaded Virginia.

As usual, the Lincoln apologists all post the same old shopworn arguments, and they're all full of shit.

Serious questions: When two sides go to war, do you think they really go to war for the same reason?

Yep, Lincoln didn't invade to stop Slavery any more than the rank and file poor white Southerner fought to uphold Slavery. However, the Southern Diplomats that led the South into war most certainly DID secede to protect the institution of slavery. It says so in their own secession documents.

That absolutely cost the South the moral high ground in the eyes of Europe and pretty much doomed the Confederacy out of the gate. Mathematically, they could never win the Civil War. Every single metric you can come up with for military power favored the North. Every Single One. And while Lincoln didn't invade to stop Slavery, the Northern population as a whole had a huge feeling of moral superiority thanks to the South's defense of that reprehensible institution.

When you're in a weaker military position you win in one of two ways:
1. Outside intervention: Never was going to happen thanks to Europe's stance on Slavery.
2. Crush morale: Never going to happen as the North always felt justified crushing the South to dust thanks to Slavery.

I know you want to think Slavery had nothing at all to do with the Civil War. You are absolutely wrong. It was a huge political and moral weapon for the North, and for the Southern leaders it was front and center as a reason to secede.

good

Lincoln was necessary to make sure that the South got crushed.

Yeah, who cares about the Constitution or basic human rights - kill those assholes for thinking they could make their own decisions!

 

[bripat9643]

In other words the Southern states would have to get Lincoln to "agree" to let them secede - something he had no intention of doing.

Go **** yourself.

You don't make a "legal agreement" with someone who's holding a gun to your head.

Die or Serve.

Your choice.

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

 

[bripat9643]

The Southern documents of Secession all argue in favor of slavery. You pretty much lose the moral high ground right there. Which by the way, is a huge reason the South lost. Europe wouldn't have minded jumping in and seeing the US split but the South's pro-Slavery stance pretty much ended any hope that would happen.

That's why lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation. It didn't free a single slave since it only applied to the south, not the slave owning states in the north. The EP didn't fool anyone in america but it did in yurp.

Mostly true. History has shown Lincoln wanted something like the EP much earlier,

Really? Where does it show that? Can you quote some documents that support your claim?

but held off out of concerns he'd lose the border states that still were slave holding. The EP was a calculated risk: It kept the Europeans out of the war, but the actual policy follow through kept slavery around in the border states throughout the War.

You're right about one thing: it was "calculated." It had nothing to do with any principles Lincoln supposedly believed in. The one central fact about the EP that you can't ignore is that it didn't actually free any slaves. Furthermore, Lincoln had no Constitutional authority to issue such and edict. The whole thing was an obvious scam, like global warming.

 

[Discombobulated]

Die or Serve.

Your choice.

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

Are you really this stupid? Once the states had seceded they were no longer entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.

 

[bripat9643]

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

Are you really this stupid? Once the states had seceded they were no longer entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.

If they were sovereign countries, then Lincoln prosecuted a war of aggression against a peaceful neighbor. The Union had no right to occupy foreign sovereign territory at Fort Sumter. It had no right to send in supply ships to intrude on the territorial waters of South Carolina. In short, if yu acknowledge that the Confederate states where foreign countries, then you acknowledge they had a right to secede and that Lincoln was totally in the wrong when he invaded them.

Talk about stupid.

 

[Discombobulated]

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

Are you really this stupid? Once the states had seceded they were no longer entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.

If they were sovereign countries, then Lincoln prosecuted a war of aggression against a peaceful neighbor. The Union had no right to occupy foreign sovereign territory at Fort Sumter. It had no right to send in supply ships to intrude on the territorial waters of South Carolina. In short, if yu acknowledge that the Confederate states where foreign countries, then you acknowledge they had a right to secede and that Lincoln was totally in the wrong when he invaded them.

Talk about stupid.

How do you invade territory that you already possess?

 

[MaxGrit]

Die or Serve.

Your choice.

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

The Confederacy committed treason against the United States by way of secession.

The Confederacy's secession was a declaration of war against the United States as well as an act of war against the United States. The Confederacy were traitors that tried to destroy the country by way of secession.

The Confederacy treasonous act of war against the United States was an act of treason that encompasses all three definition of treason written in the Constitution.

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Lincoln, as President of the United States, was duty bound to protect the United States from its enemies. Lincoln had to levy war against the treasonous Confederacy until all traitors are dead or with an unconditional surrender.

 

[MaxGrit]

Simply put, the war started when Confederate traitors attacked their own country, the United States, by way of secession.

 

[bripat9643]

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

Are you really this stupid? Once the states had seceded they were no longer entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.

If they were sovereign countries, then Lincoln prosecuted a war of aggression against a peaceful neighbor. The Union had no right to occupy foreign sovereign territory at Fort Sumter. It had no right to send in supply ships to intrude on the territorial waters of South Carolina. In short, if yu acknowledge that the Confederate states where foreign countries, then you acknowledge they had a right to secede and that Lincoln was totally in the wrong when he invaded them.

Talk about stupid.

How do you invade territory that you already possess?

You just said they they were sovereign states. Now you're claiming they were part of the United States again, where everyone is protected by the Constitution. Which is it? Where they sovereign states or part of the United States?

 

[bripat9643]

Simply put, the war started when Confederate traitors attacked their own country, the United States, by way of secession.

Hmmm . . . let me explain something about the definition of the term "secede." It doesn't translate to mean "attack."

 

[bripat9643]

That's the kind of "choice" that liberals and Nazis always have to offer.

That's the only choice you can make in the situation when you have a gun held to your head.

At least you get to choose. Most of the time, your enemy choose for you to die.

Wow, liberals are such great humanitarians. They only want what's best for the people, even if they have to kill them.

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

The Confederacy committed treason against the United States by way of secession.

The Confederacy's secession was a declaration of war against the United States as well as an act of war against the United States. The Confederacy were traitors that tried to destroy the country by way of secession.

The Confederacy treasonous act of war against the United States was an act of treason that encompasses all three definition of treason written in the Constitution.

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Lincoln, as President of the United States, was duty bound to protect the United States from its enemies. Lincoln had to levy war against the treasonous Confederacy until all traitors are dead or with an unconditional surrender.

You really are just a moron Nazi asshole, aren't you?

 

[Discombobulated]

All traitors must die.

Lincoln was the traitor according to the definition in the Constitution. Allow me to quote:

"Treason against the United State(s), shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."​

Note that it uses the plural "them." So treason shall consist of making war against any of the states in the union. Lincoln and his thug associates are the ones who made war against the states, not the Confederacy.

Are you really this stupid? Once the states had seceded they were no longer entitled to the protections of the US Constitution.

If they were sovereign countries, then Lincoln prosecuted a war of aggression against a peaceful neighbor. The Union had no right to occupy foreign sovereign territory at Fort Sumter. It had no right to send in supply ships to intrude on the territorial waters of South Carolina. In short, if yu acknowledge that the Confederate states where foreign countries, then you acknowledge they had a right to secede and that Lincoln was totally in the wrong when he invaded them.

Talk about stupid.

How do you invade territory that you already possess?

You just said they they were sovereign states. Now you're claiming they were part of the United States again, where everyone is protected by the Constitution. Which is it? Where they sovereign states or part of the United States?

One of the essential components of being a sovereign nation is gaining diplomatic recognition from other nations. If you don't have that then all you have is a bunch of traitors and misguided fools claiming to be a country.

 

[MaxGrit]

Simply put, the war started when Confederate traitors attacked their own country, the United States, by way of secession.

Hmmm . . . let me explain something about the definition of the term "secede." It doesn't translate to mean "attack."

Call it whatever you want, it was an act of war instigated by traitors to the country which seeked to destroy the United States and took over its territories.

I don't care one bit what traitors call their treasonous actions. Treason against the country will not be tolerated. Punishment: death.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

The reason for the Civil War was economics. Conflicts were arising across the country over the slavery issue. The south wanted to continue with free labor after paying an initial price for a human being and further keep any children the slave had as free laborers in-perpetuity. The south didn't believe that non-whites had the same rights as whites.
While there are those who would like for their states to secede, their reason is most likely for the same reason the southern states originally wanted to secede and that is evil.

I got news for you, nimrod, Northerners didn't believe non-whites had the same rights as whites either. In fact, Lincoln himself didn't believe they had the same rights.
No matter what the reason the Southern states wanted to secede, the bottom line is that Lincoln is the one who invaded the South.
The South didn't invaded the North. Lincoln wanted war, and that's what he got.

I won't sink to your rude name calling level. The north went into the south because the newly formed South Carolina militia attacked Fort Sumter. Look it up.
Yes, you are correct that there were those in the north who didn't care one way or the other about slavery. That doesn't negate the fact that it was the economics of slavery that caused the southern states to secede. I lived for years in the south and the amount of racist crap I've heard spoken between whites is an embarassment.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[. Furthermore, Lincoln had no Constitutional authority to issue such and edict. .

Yup. The Emancipation Proclamation was NOT an executive order. It was a law and the constitution says "all legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a congress of the united states".

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[
Yes, you are correct that there were those in the north who didn't care one way or the other about slavery. That doesn't negate the fact that it was the economics of slavery that caused the southern states to secede. I lived for years in the south and the amount of racist crap I've heard spoken between whites is an embarassment.

Only racist crap in america the last 50 years has been affirmative action and YOU support that.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

Hmmm . . . let me explain something about the definition of the term "secede." It doesn't translate to mean "attack."

Call it whatever you want, it was an act of war instigated by traitors to the country which seeked to destroy the United States and took over its territories.

I don't care one bit what traitors call their treasonous actions. Treason against the country will not be tolerated. Punishment: death.

HAHAHA. How in the name of god is secession an act of war.? And the south had no interest in taking over any territories. The Civil war was not really a civil war when you come right down to it. The south just wanted to be left alone. They had no interest in controlling the northern states. You are a blithering idiot.