Russian draft documents on legal security guarantees from the United States and NATO

[para bellum]

Nope...

I'm asking why the media on both sides of this rock is all over NATO

~S~

I guess it's the clicks.

Putin's views aren't a mystery, he's been saying the same thing for 20 years, and not just about Ukraine. Poland, the Baltics, etc

I think the time to complain about NATO nukes in Europe was about 1985, when there were thousands of them...

Today there is barely a handful, and they are not anywhere near the Russian borders.

The excuse that he had invade Ukraine to prevent NATO nukes on Russia's borders isn't rooted in reality.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What did Russia EVER do that was harmful to anyone?

You mean something like enslave Eastern Europe?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The goal obviously was to put NATO nukes on Russia's border,

Why would they bother? NATO nukes can easily hit Russia from outside Ukraine.

 

[Toro]

What did Russia EVER do that was harmful to anyone?
Like with China, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc.?
The US tried to illegal put dictators in power in all those cases, and Russia worked to defend the people, with nothing in return.

I don't blame you. I blame your awful education system and media.

OK, I blame you some.

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Toro]

Here's Russia "protecting" Poland along with the Nazis.

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[José]

Security on the cheap sometimes turns out to be expensive.

When dozens of prostitute nations, instead of building their own army, start leasing out their lands to serve militaristic foreign interests that threaten Russia, sooner or later they'll have to face the russian wrecking ball.

 

[Rigby5]

Yeah, sure

Except that russia invaded Crimea

The Crimea never was populated by ethnic Ukrainians because for 1000 years it was part of Russia.
Khrushchev gave the Crimea to the Ukraine in 1955, but that was not really legal, and was only because Khrushchev was a Ukrainians and wanted it for other Ukrainians.
So there was nothing wrong or illegal for Russia to take the Crimea back, after the Azov Battalion started murdering ethnic Russians there.
Russia also had to punish the Ukraine for stealing oil and violating treaties.
Trying to join NATO violates the 1992 treaty with Gorbachev, which created an independent Ukraine.
By trying to join NATO, the Ukraine forfeit its independence completely.

 

[Mac-7]

The Crimea never was populated by ethnic Ukrainians because for 1000 years it was part of Russia.
Khrushchev gave the Crimea to the Ukraine in 1955, but that was not really legal, and was only because Khrushchev was a Ukrainians and wanted it for other Ukrainians.
So there was nothing wrong or illegal for Russia to take the Crimea back, after the Azov Battalion started murdering ethnic Russians there.
Russia also had to punish the Ukraine for stealing oil and violating treaties.
Trying to join NATO violates the 1992 treaty with Gorbachev, which created an independent Ukraine.
By trying to join NATO, the Ukraine forfeit its independence completely.

Yeah sure

And there were ethnic germans living Czechoslovakia and Poland when hitler invaded them in 1939

 

[Rigby5]

NATO didn't move east nearly so much as Eastern European countries moved west. As quickly as they could, in most cases.

"Nukes on Russia's border" is BS. There are no nukes on Russia's borders, and no plans to put them there.

And "NATO nukes" in Europe are a tiny fraction of what they were in the cold war era.

NATO was not rattling any sabres at Putin.

That is a lie.

The US already had put nukes in Poland, under the ridiculous claim they were ABMs to protect Poland from any missile attack from Iran.
The Sprint 3 stage missiles we put into Poland were actually just short range, tactical nukes.
And we only finally took them back out because of threats.

The whole coup where the government of the Ukraine was taken over in 2014 was just a NATO plot.
A bunch of Ukrainians suddenly became billionaires, with US cash to burn.
The Secretary of the Treasury in the Ukraine was a US citizen, which is not even legal under Ukrainian law.

 

[Rigby5]

Yeah sure

And there were ethnic germans living Czechoslovakia and Poland when hitler invaded them in 1939

So?
Obviously Hitler was not lying about the fact the Sudetenland had been Germanic since Charlemagne, Poland was a fake country invented by the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles, and Poles have always been abusive of Germans.
If you want to understand the ethic abuse in the Ukraine, you need to go back to the "Taras Bulba" era, where Poles were an arrogant and racist aristocracy that invented Cossack cavalry and ran rampant for almost 100 years before all the neighbors finally defeated them. Poles and Ukrainians are very same racist, arrogant, and elitist culture that should never be allowed to rule anywhere.
You think it makes Putin to look bad to have a similarity to something Hitler did, but the reality is Hitler did it only because the people demanded it because it was the RIGHT thing to do and needed to be done.
You are assuming the Allies were the good guys in both WWI and WWII, and they were not.
While Hitler was an evil and greedy opportunist, it was the Allies who were the most vile and unethical, who deliberately started both WWI and WWII.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So?
Obviously Hitler was not lying about the fact the Sudetenland had been Germanic since Charlemagne, Poland was a fake country invented by the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles, and Poles have always been abusive of Germans.
If you want to understand the ethic abuse in the Ukraine, you need to go back to the "Taras Bulba" era, where Poles were an arrogant and racist aristocracy that invented Cossack cavalry and ran rampant for almost 100 years before all the neighbors finally defeated them. Poles and Ukrainians are very same racist, arrogant, and elitist culture that should never be allowed to rule anywhere.
You think it makes Putin to look bad to have a similarity to something Hitler did, but the reality is Hitler did it only because the people demanded it because it was the RIGHT thing to do and needed to be done.
You are assuming the Allies were the good guys in both WWI and WWII, and they were not.
While Hitler was an evil and greedy opportunist, it was the Allies who were the most vile and unethical, who deliberately started both WWI and WWII.

You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you?

 

[Rigby5]

Here's Russia "protecting" Poland along with the Nazis.

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is no one in the region who wanted Poland to be independent.
Poland and the Ukraine used to be an awful and terrifying alliance that massacred or enslaved millions.
The only thing that saved Europe was of the rebellion between the Ukraine and Poland, that weakened both enough so they had to stop.

{...
The Khmelnytsky Uprising,[a] also known as the Cossack-Polish War,[1] the Chmielnicki Uprising, the Khmelnytsky massacre[2] or the Khmelnytsky insurrection,[3] was a Cossack rebellion that took place between 1648 and 1657 in the eastern territories of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, which led to the creation of a Cossack Hetmanate in Ukraine. Under the command of Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky, the Zaporozhian Cossacks, allied with the Crimean Tatars and local Ukrainian peasantry, fought against Polish domination and against the Commonwealth forces. The insurgency was accompanied by mass atrocities committed by Cossacks against the civilian population, especially against the Roman Catholic clergy and the Jews.[4]

The uprising has a symbolic meaning in the history of Ukraine's relationship with Poland and Russia. It ended the Polish Catholic szlachta′s domination over the Ukrainian Orthodox population; at the same time, it led to the eventual incorporation of eastern Ukraine into the Tsardom of Russia initiated by the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement, whereby the Cossacks would swear allegiance to the Tsar while retaining a wide degree of autonomy. The event triggered a period of political turbulence and infighting in the Hetmanate known as the Ruin. The success of the anti-Polish rebellion, along with internal conflicts in Poland, as well as concurrent wars waged by Poland with Russia and Sweden (the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667) and Second Northern War (1655–1660) respectively), ended the Polish Golden Age and caused a secular decline of Polish power during the period known in Polish history as the Deluge.

In Jewish history, the Uprising is known for the concomitant outrages against the Jews who, in their capacity as leaseholders (arendators), were seen by the peasants as their immediate oppressors.[4][5] However, Shmuel Ettinger argues that both Ukrainian and Polish accounts of the massacres overemphasize the importance of the Jewish role as landlords, while downplaying the religious motivation for Cossack violence.[6]
...}

To this day, Poles and Ukrainians (Cossacks) are hated across Europe.
The Crimeans (Tartars), not so much because they kept to themselves more.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

To this day, Poles and Ukrainians (Cossacks) are hated across Europe.

To this day, Russians and Commies are hated across Europe.

 

[Mac-7]

So?
Obviously Hitler was not lying about the fact the Sudetenland had been Germanic since Charlemagne, Poland was a fake country invented by the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles, and Poles have always been abusive of Germans.
If you want to understand the ethic abuse in the Ukraine, you need to go back to the "Taras Bulba" era, where Poles were an arrogant and racist aristocracy that invented Cossack cavalry and ran rampant for almost 100 years before all the neighbors finally defeated them. Poles and Ukrainians are very same racist, arrogant, and elitist culture that should never be allowed to rule anywhere.
You think it makes Putin to look bad to have a similarity to something Hitler did, but the reality is Hitler did it only because the people demanded it because it was the RIGHT thing to do and needed to be done.
You are assuming the Allies were the good guys in both WWI and WWII, and they were not.
While Hitler was an evil and greedy opportunist, it was the Allies who were the most vile and unethical, who deliberately started both WWI and WWII.

None of that matters when it comes to current international boundaries

Ukraine is a sovereign nation independent of russia and should not be invaded by a larger country

 

[Rigby5]

You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you?

You obviously do not understand politicians who use populatist tactics.
They do not create issues, but instead pick up on popular issues and pretend to have solutions.
Like the lack of good paying jobs for the masses in the US, due to offshoring, Trump blamed on illegal immigrants.
It did not have to be true, just something the masses already believed.
Same with Hitler.
He came up with nothing.
Nothing he did was his idea, but were common beliefs of the masses already, which he just took advantage of.
And clearly Poland was hated.
Poland had deserved to be hated for the crimes, massacres, and abuses from hundreds of years before.
If you look at a map from before the Treaty of Versailles, there is no Poland.
The Allies invented Poland in order to prevent Germany from being unified.

It is easy to prove that Hitler was just an opportunist populist.
For example, if he really was racist and hated Jews, then how come there were over 100,000 Jews in the Wehrmacht that Hitler never touched, or their families?

 

[Toro]

There is no one in the region who wanted Poland to be independent.
Poland and the Ukraine used to be an awful and terrifying alliance that massacred or enslaved millions.
The only thing that saved Europe was of the rebellion between the Ukraine and Poland, that weakened both enough so they had to stop.

{...
The Khmelnytsky Uprising,[a] also known as the Cossack-Polish War,[1] the Chmielnicki Uprising, the Khmelnytsky massacre[2] or the Khmelnytsky insurrection,[3] was a Cossack rebellion that took place between 1648 and 1657 in the eastern territories of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, which led to the creation of a Cossack Hetmanate in Ukraine. Under the command of Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky, the Zaporozhian Cossacks, allied with the Crimean Tatars and local Ukrainian peasantry, fought against Polish domination and against the Commonwealth forces. The insurgency was accompanied by mass atrocities committed by Cossacks against the civilian population, especially against the Roman Catholic clergy and the Jews.[4]

The uprising has a symbolic meaning in the history of Ukraine's relationship with Poland and Russia. It ended the Polish Catholic szlachta′s domination over the Ukrainian Orthodox population; at the same time, it led to the eventual incorporation of eastern Ukraine into the Tsardom of Russia initiated by the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement, whereby the Cossacks would swear allegiance to the Tsar while retaining a wide degree of autonomy. The event triggered a period of political turbulence and infighting in the Hetmanate known as the Ruin. The success of the anti-Polish rebellion, along with internal conflicts in Poland, as well as concurrent wars waged by Poland with Russia and Sweden (the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667) and Second Northern War (1655–1660) respectively), ended the Polish Golden Age and caused a secular decline of Polish power during the period known in Polish history as the Deluge.

In Jewish history, the Uprising is known for the concomitant outrages against the Jews who, in their capacity as leaseholders (arendators), were seen by the peasants as their immediate oppressors.[4][5] However, Shmuel Ettinger argues that both Ukrainian and Polish accounts of the massacres overemphasize the importance of the Jewish role as landlords, while downplaying the religious motivation for Cossack violence.[6]
...}

To this day, Poles and Ukrainians (Cossacks) are hated across Europe.
The Crimeans (Tartars), not so much because they kept to themselves more.

Russia is an arrogant empire who thinks they can rule over others. It has killed tens of millions of people. That’s why almost everyone is trying to get away. Nobody wants to be like Russia.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you look at a map from before the Treaty of Versailles, there is no Poland.
The Allies invented Poland in order to prevent Germany from being unified.

They deserved to be enslaved by Russia after WWII.

 

[Toro]

 

[Rigby5]

To this day, Russians and Commies are hated across Europe.

Wrong.
All European nations are so socialist as to actually be communist.
And Russians have never been remotely communist, but always capitalists instead.
And Russia never attacked anyone.
It was Napoleon who invaded Russia, not the other way around.
Europe hated Slavs, not Russians, and it was the Polish Slavs they actually were referring to.
The Poles used Ukrainian (Cossack) cavalry and terrorized Europe for over 100 years.
Russia is xenophobic and kept to itself.
The colonial imperialists in Europe were first Spain, then later England and France, and finally the USA.
The closest the Russian came to be colonial imperialists was the Sino-Russo wars around 1900, with Japan.

 

[Rigby5]

None of that matters when it comes to current international boundaries

Ukraine is a sovereign nation independent of russia and should not be invaded by a larger country

Wrong.

The Ukraine illegally was given large chunks of Russia, populated by ethnic Russians, and since the Ukraine Azov Battalion is murdering these ethnic Russians, the Ukraine is forfeit.
The Ukraine is almost half ethnic Russians, but Kyiv is entirely Ukrainian and prevents any ethnic Russian participation in government.

Combined with crimes like stealing Russian oil, violating treaties, trying to join NATO, etc., the Ukraine is forfeit.
It is like the Confederacy in the South. If you want to commit crimes, like murder and slavery, you forfeit any sovereignty.

And the Ukraine agreed to this Russian invasion in 1992, as terms of their treaty then that gave them independence.
The Ukraine agreed to NEVER try to join any alliance hostile to Russia.

And the Ukraine is not a single culture so should never be a single nation.
It is half Slavic Poles in the west, and half Slavic Russians in the east. They never got along and should never be one country. It was entirely the fault of Khrushchev, in 1955. That problem still needs to be fixed. The Ukraine needs to split off ALL provinces that are more than half ethnic Russian.