Russian draft documents on legal security guarantees from the United States and NATO

The Trabant was one of the single most successful cars ever made.
That is why they used one for the "Harry Potter" movie intro.

{...
Official state price was 7,450 GDR marks and the demand to production ratio was forty three to one (1989). The free market price for a second-hand one was more than twice the price of a new one, and the average worker had to wait ten to thirteen years on a waiting list, or, if available, pay more than double for a second hand model
...}

They are still selling for much more than they originally cost, due to their simple, reliable, and economical design.
In contrast, you could not give me a BMW, except if I could immediately resell it .
A BMW is about the most unreliable car every built.
They do not last, and maintenance is horrendous.

The Trabant was one of the single most successful cars ever made.

LOL!

So successful that they still sell millions. Wait.....whut?

Official state price was 7,450 GDR marks and the demand to production ratio was forty three to one (1989).

No kidding. Communism sucked.

The free market price for a second-hand one was more than twice the price of a new one,

Free market price? Stop it, you're killing me!!!

They are still selling for much more than they originally cost, due to their simple, reliable, and economical design.

They only problem is, you have to accept East German marks........
 
The Berlin wall was not in Russia.

Did I say it was in Russia? Moron.

And it is supposed to be globally illegal to default on student subsidies.

LOL!

The fact it was happening in East Berlin so much, likely was deliberate enticement by the west, the US in particular.

I know, freedom from communist tyranny is very enticing.

We were talking about Russia, when you wrote:
{... You were lying when you said "And of course anyone could leave at any time" ...}
Anyone can leave Russia at any time.
For example, about 3.3 million Jews emigrated from Russia to Israel.
What happened in Berlin was unusual, localized, and had nothing at all to do with Russia.

It is impossible for communism to ever be tyrannical.
First of all, tyranny implies a single dictator, and communism implies a republic.
 
Of course those who promised to not leave until they had paid back their education subsidy, would be lying.

Did they sign an agreement to pay back their free, commie education?

I have not heard of anyone being denied travel.
It would be pretty hard to stop.


Well, after you shoot the first couple of thousand who tried to escape, it's much easier to stop.

Wrong.
There are trains, ships, planes, thousands of miles of open border, etc., so it is impossible to block travel as you imply.
Berlin was the only significant exception, and that likely was deliberate propaganda stunts.
 
The Trabant was one of the single most successful cars ever made.

LOL!

So successful that they still sell millions. Wait.....whut?

Official state price was 7,450 GDR marks and the demand to production ratio was forty three to one (1989).

No kidding. Communism sucked.

The free market price for a second-hand one was more than twice the price of a new one,

Free market price? Stop it, you're killing me!!!

They are still selling for much more than they originally cost, due to their simple, reliable, and economical design.

They only problem is, you have to accept East German marks........

Wrong.
There is no East Germany any more, and they stopped making the Trabant in 1991.
Being 2 stroke, it likely did not do will with emissions.
 
We were talking about Russia, when you wrote:
{... You were lying when you said "And of course anyone could leave at any time" ...}
Anyone can leave Russia at any time.
For example, about 3.3 million Jews emigrated from Russia to Israel.
What happened in Berlin was unusual, localized, and had nothing at all to do with Russia.

It is impossible for communism to ever be tyrannical.
First of all, tyranny implies a single dictator, and communism implies a republic.

We were talking about Russia, when you wrote:
{... You were lying when you said "
And of course anyone could leave at any time" ...}
1652066025292.png


You were talking about communism when you said,
"And of course anyone could leave at any time"
Liar.

Anyone can leave Russia at any time.
For example, about 3.3 million Jews emigrated from Russia to Israel.


They left "at any time"? Really?

It is impossible for communism to ever be tyrannical.

Yeah, tell that to the 20 million that Stalin and Lenin killed.

First of all, tyranny implies a single dictator,

Was the gulag a voluntary spa?
 
Wrong.
There are trains, ships, planes, thousands of miles of open border, etc., so it is impossible to block travel as you imply.
Berlin was the only significant exception, and that likely was deliberate propaganda stunts.

There are trains, ships, planes, thousands of miles of open border, etc., so it is impossible to block travel as you imply.

Plus, no one ever wants to leave communism, because "stable job, housing, food, health care, etc."

Berlin was the only significant exception, and that likely was deliberate propaganda stunts.

Yes, hundreds of thousands of Germans escaping commie tyranny ruins your commie propaganda.
 
Except that you obviously know nothing about real life communism, or else you would not have linked that foolish propaganda.

The first link claims to have 8 points why communism does not work, and it silly wrong.
For example, the 1st claim is that you can not leave. And of course anyone could leave at any time.
Nor did people in general want to leave, since life included a stable job, housing, food, health care, etc.
Nor would being able to leave or not have anything remotely at all related to economic systems, like communism or capitalism. Since capitalism prefers slavery when it can get away with it, clearly it is capitalism that denies mobility, not communism.
I can choose to believe your propaganda or the propaganda I linked to.

I have ABSOLUTELY no interest is this nation becoming a socialist workers paradises let alone a Communist dictatorship.

You say people could leave at any time. Explain this wall and why 327 people died trying to escape East Germany.

1652074852362.jpeg



Cuba is a failed Communist nation. I lived in a Cuban neighborhood in Tampa, Florida and knew people who had fled Cuba. The tip of Florida is only 90 miles from Florida but it takes a lot of courage to travel those 90 miles.


1652075143965.jpeg


1652075326275.jpeg

1652075261995.jpeg

1652075490471.jpeg
 
There are trains, ships, planes, thousands of miles of open border, etc., so it is impossible to block travel as you imply.

Plus, no one ever wants to leave communism, because "stable job, housing, food, health care, etc."

Berlin was the only significant exception, and that likely was deliberate propaganda stunts.

Yes, hundreds of thousands of Germans escaping commie tyranny ruins your commie propaganda.

It was not "hundreds of thousands" who crossed into west Berlin.
It likely was more like just a few hundred.
And the East German government was not at all communist in any way.
 
Cuba is a failed Communist nation. I lived in a Cuban neighborhood in Tampa, Florida and knew people who had fled Cuba. The tip of Florida is only 90 miles from Florida but it takes a lot of courage to travel those 90 miles.

Wrong.
First of all, Cuba is not communist in any way, and second is that the illegal US economic embargo was the main reason people needed to leave, not that they wanted to leave.
 
Putin is naive.
To expect honesty by NATO is equal to believe an octogenarian whore is still virgin.
NATO broke all former agreements with Russia and hugely expanded to the East.
NATO murdered millions in numerous countries either of no reason or on behalf of Israel.
NATO understands only one language: unstoppable nukes.
Russia shall let Zirkon missiles talk.
The more Russia has of them the more NATO get hesitant to attack the country and WWIII can be avoided

Otherwise all agreements with NATO get flushed down the toilet within few weeks.

Nevertheless below is the document

This document is in six sections.

  • The first is a preamble. It is from ColonelCassad and is a machine translation. This would form a necessary overview and is a description of the current situation.
  • The second is Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov’s special video briefing in Moscow and contains some incisive Q&A
  • The third is a short press release
  • The fourth is a proposed draft treaty between the Russian Federation and the United States of America on security guarantees
  • The fifth is a cohesive complement to the draft treaty and is an agreement on measures to ensure the security of the Russian Federation and member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).
  • The sixth is Jen Psaki’s initial response as reported by RT
We await the Saker’s Analysis in the next few days.

Preamble

The Russian Foreign Ministry presented a draft Russia-NATO agreement, which in fact sets forth in writing the security guarantees desired by Russia, which in fact is what was not done when Gorbachev liquidated the Soviet bloc.
Thus, the following text presents Russia’s vision of the current state of Russian-NATO relations and the vector of their desired correction in a way that would be beneficial for Russia.

Bilateral relations between Russia and foreign countries and regional organizations

Russian-NATO relations are in a protracted crisis. The decisions of the 2018 NATO summit in Brussels confirmed the line of military-political “containment” of Russia. The long-term course of building up NATO’s coalition capabilities to create troop groupings and further improve military infrastructure near our borders has continued.

The military presence and the bloc’s forced development of military infrastructure in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states is consistently increasing. The number and intensity of military exercises of the alliance and its member countries have increased significantly, for which additional contingents of troops and heavy military equipment of NATO countries are being transferred to the regions bordering Russia.

Sweden, Finland and other partner countries are more and more actively involved in the military activities of the alliance. Advanced command and staff units are being formed, the decision was made to create new joint commands of the coalition forces – in Norfolk (USA) to ensure safety of transport corridors in the North Atlantic and Arctic regions, in Ulm (Germany) on the management, planning and logistics for the organization of military transport in Europe. Pentagon plans for forward storage of military equipment in the CEE and Baltic states have been announced. Groups of ships patrolling the waters of the Baltic Sea were strengthened. The number of visits and duration of stay in the Black Sea of naval ships of non-Black Sea alliance countries, primarily of the USA, has increased. NATO Navy continues to patrol the air space of the Baltic Sea with increased strength, and “interception” sorties are carried out even when there have been no violations from the Russian side. The missile defense complex in Romania is deployed. A similar facility is planned to be commissioned in 2020 in Poland. Of particular concern are the plans for permanent deployment of U.S. troops there and the recent agreements to increase the American contingent, which jeopardize the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act, one of the few remaining documents meant to ensure military stability in Europe.

Gradually but systematically, the effective European security architecture and the norms of international law are being destroyed. The abandonment of key agreements that ensure military restraint, with the tacit agreement of most members of the alliance – the situation around the New START treaty is a vivid example here – is fraught with the development of a new arms race, a throwback to the principles of the confrontation era.

Of course, such NATO military preparations cannot remain without our adequate response.

The continuing dragging of the Balkan countries into NATO and the desire to “drive” them into the bloc at any cost confirms the invariability of the course taken to recklessly expand its geopolitical space. Disregard of legal norms and opinion of a considerable part of the population in closing the issue of state name of Northern Macedonia, forcing Bosnia and Herzegovina to join NATO, creating “Kosovo army” with connivance of the “Force for Kosovo” only aggravate already existing contradictions and seriously destabilize the situation in the region.

The unilateral decision of NATO to suspend practical cooperation with Russia on military and civilian lines also remains in force. At the same time, NATO countries do not show readiness to discuss Russian proposals on de-escalation of tensions and prevention of military incidents, handed to them at the May 31, 2018 Russia-NATO Council meeting. These proposals include resuming dialogue on the military line (starting with expert consultations) to discuss issues of mutual interest and concern to Russia and our partners; taking measures to reduce military activity along the line of direct contact between Russia and NATO (the Baltics, There has been no reaction from NATO so far.

All these actions are fraught with long-term destabilizing consequences for both regional and entire Euro-Atlantic security.

Despite the unfriendly steps taken against us, Russia has no intention of getting drawn into the senseless confrontation imposed on us.

We continue to firmly believe in the strategic commonality of aims with all the States and organizations of the Euro-Atlantic region to maintain peace and stability and to counter common threats to security – international terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, drug trafficking and piracy. We remain convinced that there is no real alternative to mutually beneficial and broad pan-European security co-operation on the solid basis of international law.

Russia’s position remains unchanged – our country is ready to develop relations with NATO on the basis of equal rights in order to strengthen comprehensive security in the Euro-Atlantic region. The depth and content of such relations will depend on the alliance’s reciprocal readiness to take Russia’s legitimate interests into account.


The video is forwarded to start playing at the start point at 21:47

17 December 2021 13:36
Press release on Russian draft documents on legal security guarantees from the United States and NATO
During the December 15, 2021 meeting at the Russian Foreign Ministry, the US party received a draft treaty between the Russian Federation and the United States of America on security guarantees and an agreement on measures to ensure the security of the Russian Federation and member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).
The US party was given detailed explanations regarding the logic of the Russian approach, as well as the relevant arguments. We hope that, the United States will enter into serious talks with Russia in the near future regarding this matter, which has critical importance for maintaining peace and stability, using the Russian draft treaty and agreement as a starting point.

17 December 2021 13:30
TREATY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION ON SECURITY GUARANTEES

Unofficial translation
Draft
The United States of America and the Russian Federation, hereinafter referred to as the “Parties”,
guided by the principles contained in the Charter of the United Nations, the 1970 Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, the 1975 Helsinki Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, as well as the provisions of the 1982 Manila Declaration on the Peaceful Settlement of Disputes, the 1999 Charter for European Security, and the 1997 Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the Russian Federation,
recalling the inadmissibility of the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations both in their mutual and international relations in general,
supporting the role of the United Nations Security Council that has the primary responsibility for maintaining international peace and security,
recognizing the need for united efforts to effectively respond to modern security challenges and threats in a globalized and interdependent world,
considering the need for strict compliance with the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs, including refraining from supporting organizations, groups or individuals calling for an unconstitutional change of power, as well as from undertaking any actions aimed at changing the political or social system of one of the Contracting Parties,
bearing in mind the need to create additional effective and quick-to-launch cooperation mechanisms or improve the existing ones to settle emerging issues and disputes through a constructive dialogue on the basis of mutual respect for and recognition of each other’s security interests and concerns, as well as to elaborate adequate responses to security challenges and threats,
seeking to avoid any military confrontation and armed conflict between the Parties and realizing that direct military clash between them could result in the use of nuclear weapons that would have far-reaching consequences,
reaffirming that a nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought, and recognizing the need to make every effort to prevent the risk of outbreak of such war among States that possess nuclear weapons,
reaffirming their commitments under the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on Measures to Reduce the Risk of Outbreak of Nuclear War of 30 September 1971, the Agreement between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Prevention of Incidents On and Over the High Seas of 25 May 1972, the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Establishment of Nuclear Risk Reduction Centers of 15 September 1987, as well as the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Prevention of Dangerous Military Activities of 12 June 1989,
have agreed as follows:
Article 1
The Parties shall cooperate on the basis of principles of indivisible, equal and undiminished security and to these ends:
shall not undertake actions nor participate in or support activities that affect the security of the other Party;
shall not implement security measures adopted by each Party individually or in the framework of an international organization, military alliance or coalition that could undermine core security interests of the other Party.
Article 2
The Parties shall seek to ensure that all international organizations, military alliances and coalitions in which at least one of the Parties is taking part adhere to the principles contained in the Charter of the United Nations.
Article 3
The Parties shall not use the territories of other States with a view to preparing or carrying out an armed attack against the other Party or other actions affecting core security interests of the other Party.
Article 4
The United States of America shall undertake to prevent further eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and deny accession to the Alliance to the States of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The United States of America shall not establish military bases in the territory of the States of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that are not members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, use their infrastructure for any military activities or develop bilateral military cooperation with them.


So russia is trying to sue for peace, while trying to save face, and trying not to be punished by nato or anyone else after invading Ukraine starting war while purposely murdering innocent people and terrorizing using rape and murder to punish ukraine for daring to fight back?

Fuck you Russians---the US should not make any deals with Russia. PUtin get the fuck out of Ukraine. Russian Oligarths kill off PUTIN and then ask for peace with no demands.
 
It was not "hundreds of thousands" who crossed into west Berlin.
It likely was more like just a few hundred.
And the East German government was not at all communist in any way.


Between 1945 and 1988, around 4 million East Germans migrated to the West. 3.454 million of them left between 1945 and the construction of the Berlin Wall in 1961. The great majority simply walked across the border or, after 1952, exited through West Berlin.



And the East German government was not at all communist in any way.

Just because weed is legal, you don't have to smoke all of it.
 
The Trabant was not as expensive so generated less profits, even though popular.

Cheaper to make, hugely popular, commie car.......a piece of shit.
It must have sucked for no one to want to continue making them.
Like so much of communism, ending up on the ash heap of history.
 
Wrong.
First of all, Cuba is not communist in any way, and second is that the illegal US economic embargo was the main reason people needed to leave, not that they wanted to leave.

First of all, Cuba is not communist in any way

Not at all? Not even a little?

Why do all the commie leaders lie and say they are commies?
Why do liberal American idiots believe them?

and second is that the illegal US economic embargo was the main reason people needed to leave,

Yeah, we really spanked those Cuban commies good!!
How is communism going to replace capitalism if communism is so damn fragile?
 
Wrong.
Russia never remotely tried to "rule Eastern Europe".
The violator was NATO, when the US funded the military coup in the Ukraine in 2014.
The goal obviously was to put NATO nukes on Russia's border, which is illegal for half a dozen reasons.
Try to sell that to the Hungarians, Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians, East Germans, Finns and any number of other countries the USSR CONQUERED in WWII and ruled with an iron fist through puppet governments, even going so far as to invade Hungary TWICE when the people tried to get out from under the Russian iron fist.
 
The Trabant was one of the single most successful cars ever made.
That is why they used one for the "Harry Potter" movie intro.

{...
Official state price was 7,450 GDR marks and the demand to production ratio was forty three to one (1989). The free market price for a second-hand one was more than twice the price of a new one, and the average worker had to wait ten to thirteen years on a waiting list, or, if available, pay more than double for a second hand model
...}

They are still selling for much more than they originally cost, due to their simple, reliable, and economical design.
In contrast, you could not give me a BMW, except if I could immediately resell it .
A BMW is about the most unreliable car every built.
They do not last, and maintenance is horrendous.
If you ever get a single fact right it will be the first one. The flying car was a Ford Anglia, NOT a Trabant.
 
I just recently had a couple of things break on my Jetta.
The AC went out and they dealer wanted $3k.
Since there no longer is a pulley clutch and they used a bypass valve instead, there is no way to test anything hardly.
Turns out it was the computerized temperature switch in the dash.
The part at the dealer was $1k, but I got a rebuilt for $300.
Now the radiator fan is going on by itself, about 5 times, even is a cold engine was only on for 5 seconds.
Dealer is quoting $2500.
I bet a junk yard relay will fix it?
I can't open one of the doors.
The locks are electric only, and it burned out most likely.
Dealer wans $1200.
So buy a used Trabant. Of course if you live in the USA, they won't let you register it because Trabants pollute so badly.
 

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