Russia is winning

[Rigby5]

I've known your posts for a long time. We do have different points of view but I never suspected that you would be a true blue commie;
Until now
N0 offense intended or implied,
you commie----you
-

Since the USSR was never communist and Russia never even pretended to be anything but capitalist, I don't get it?
But I do have a prejudice against Ukrainians since they were about 80% of the guards at Hitler's death camps, like Demjanjuk at Sobibor.

 

[Rigby5]

I had no say about the US going into VietNam, that's on the Democrat President LBJ. So do want British soldiers shipped to Ukraine? Or do you just want Americans to do the dirty work?

What normal people want if for the US to stop bribing criminal in Kyiv so that they stop committing acts of war.
Like stealing oil, violating treaties, trying to get NATO nukes, murdering ethnic Russians, etc.

 

[Rigby5]

The “students” at Ohio State had been violently rioting for several days. It wasn’t a peaceful demonstration. The unfortunate thing was that the people shot were hit by wild rounds and were innocent bystanders.

The Ohio State demonstrators were not armed, and had harmed no one.
The National Guard had bayonets on their rifles.
How can there be "wild rounds" with rifles at close range?

 

[Rigby5]

WTF are you talking about? Good Lord now you are bringing up Kent State? What is the relevance to this topic? Go back to your Benny Hill re-runs. Good night.

Kent State is relevant because the US is the one guilty of illegal invading other countries in order to oppress and steal from them, not Russia. Russia is not trying to gain any profit from the Ukraine or anyone.
They never have.
When they support someone, that cost them money, not make them profit like the US motives.

 

[MarathonMike]

Russia is not trying to gain any profit from the Ukraine or anyone.
They never have.
When they support someone, that cost them money, not make them profit like the US motives.

What major country does not try to enrich itself with resources from another country? How do you think all of those Russian Oligarchs ended up with billions of dollars to spend on yachts and mansions? Are you justifying Putin's shelling of Ukrainian citizens because you think he is not trying to "profit" from taking Ukraine?

 

[Rigby5]

What major country does not try to enrich itself with resources from another country? How do you think all of those Russian Oligarchs ended up with billions of dollars to spend on yachts and mansions? Are you justifying Putin's shelling of Ukrainian citizens because you think he is not trying to "profit" from taking Ukraine?

No reasonable country would EVER try to enrich itself by stealing from other countries like the US does.
France and England USED to do that. So did Holland, Germany, Spain, and Portugal.
But now, ONLY the US does that.

Russian oligarchs do not have billions, just millions, and they are insignificant compared to Bezos, Gates, Buffet, Bloomberg, Zuckerberg, Koch, Walton, etc.
Russian oligarchs work at how to make things better in Russia, while US billionaires concentrate on how to harm others instead.

Putin is NOT taking Ukraine, is not profiting from it, and it was Zelensky that deliberately forced the invasion by cutting negotiations after stealing oil, murdering Russians, violating treaties, and trying to put NATO nukes on Russia's border.

So Putin's motives are transparent, to stop oil thefts, stop murders of Russians, stop treaty violations, and stop the Ukraine from trying to join NATO.
Everything Putin wants is legal, while everything Zelensky wants is criminal.

 

[MarathonMike]

No reasonable country would EVER try to enrich itself by stealing from other countries like the US does.
France and England USED to do that. So did Holland, Germany, Spain, and Portugal.
But now, ONLY the US does that.

What fantasy land do you live in? Every major power in the world will and does try to enrich itself by the resources of second and third world countries. That doesn't mean corruption, but whether it's cheap labor, a precious metal mine or whatever you better believe the big dog is going to get what it needs.

 

[Rigby5]

What fantasy land do you live in? Every major power in the world will and does try to enrich itself by the resources of second and third world countries. That doesn't mean corruption, but whether it's cheap labor, a precious metal mine or whatever you better believe the big dog is going to get what it needs.

Wrong.
It is not just unethical, but very risky because your own people will adopt those corrupt ethics domestically, and eventually your whole society will totally fall apart.
That is what happened to ancient Rome.
It is not practical or sustainable.
No rational or ethical person would ever do that.
You can try to use techniques like racism to rationalize your antisocial behavior, but that is no better.
Eventually you will corrupt even your own families and children will kill parents, sisters will marry brothers, etc.
And yes, it does mean corruption.
You can't force people to remain being cheap labor without evil use of force.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What is military defeat for Russia. You're assuming that Russia intends to take the entire Ukraine and that's already proving wrong.

I think Russia is going to attain their goals with the security of a peace deal on Crimea and the Donbass region that meets their demands.

Russia isn't going to accept less than that. That's almost certainly the only way to avoid nuclear war.

I doubt that Russia is looking for "security" in the region. What security didn't it have before? NATO, a defensive alliance, scaring Russia? How is a defensive alliance scary if you're not attacking NATO?

 

[Rigby5]

I doubt that Russia is looking for "security" in the region. What security didn't it have before? NATO, a defensive alliance, scaring Russia? How is a defensive alliance scary if you're not attacking NATO?

NATO defensive?
That is hilarious.
NATO has the most colonial imperialists in the world.
The US is currently the biggest colonial imperialist, with the Monroe Doctrine enslaving all of South and Central America, and France, England and Spain are the previous big colonial imperialist powers.
NATO countries were involved in the illegal invasion of Iraq, based on lies. NATO countries helped massacre Qaddafi's troops and murder him.
NATO is scary because they already put nukes in Poland for a while, and the only reason to put nukes on Russia's border is if you intend a first strike and don't want time for retaliation.

The security Russia wants and did not have, was to not have its ethnic Russian murdered by fascist terrorists in the Donetsk, to not have Kyiv violating treaties, to not have Kyiv stealing billions in oil, to not have Kyiv trying to join NATO, etc.

 

[frigidweirdo]

NATO defensive?
That is hilarious.
NATO has the most colonial imperialists in the world.
The US is currently the biggest colonial imperialist, with the Monroe Doctrine enslaving all of South and Central America, and France, England and Spain are the previous big colonial imperialist powers.
NATO countries were involved in the illegal invasion of Iraq, based on lies. NATO countries helped massacre Qaddafi's troops and murder him.
NATO is scary because they already put nukes in Poland for a while, and the only reason to put nukes on Russia's border is if you intend a first strike and don't want time for retaliation.

The security Russia wants and did not have, was to not have its ethnic Russian murdered by fascist terrorists in the Donetsk, to not have Kyiv violating treaties, to not have Kyiv stealing billions in oil, to not have Kyiv trying to join NATO, etc.

That depends what you mean.

NATO in itself is a defensive organization. If those countries in NATO do something, then it's not really NATO, is it?

Yes, the US is the worst country for invading and causing problems. But the US does this as the US. Iraq was done just as the US and whoever else wanted to participate.

NATO took over ISAF in 2003. But 50 countries have participated in it and it was created by the UN.

The reality is the US would never attack Russia. The US picks on easy countries, just looking at what Russia is doing you know the US would never have attacked like that. The US needs to have overwhelming firepower and troop numbers to consider invading.

What Putin wanted was an excuse.

What happened in Georgia in 2008 was almost an identical play by play of what happened in the Ukraine. Putin has things in all the ex-Soviet countries except those in the EU. He can pull them out of a hat and use them as an excuse to invade, interfere, whatever he wants.

He's been messing with the Ukraine since very early on in his time as leader of Russia. The Ukraine is much poorer because of it.

 

[Donald H]

I doubt that Russia is looking for "security" in the region. What security didn't it have before? NATO, a defensive alliance, scaring Russia? How is a defensive alliance scary if you're not attacking NATO?

I'm not going to repeat the argument of the other side because you know it and are never going to accept it.

 

[Rigby5]

That depends what you mean.

NATO in itself is a defensive organization. If those countries in NATO do something, then it's not really NATO, is it?

Yes, the US is the worst country for invading and causing problems. But the US does this as the US. Iraq was done just as the US and whoever else wanted to participate.

NATO took over ISAF in 2003. But 50 countries have participated in it and it was created by the UN.

The reality is the US would never attack Russia. The US picks on easy countries, just looking at what Russia is doing you know the US would never have attacked like that. The US needs to have overwhelming firepower and troop numbers to consider invading.

What Putin wanted was an excuse.

What happened in Georgia in 2008 was almost an identical play by play of what happened in the Ukraine. Putin has things in all the ex-Soviet countries except those in the EU. He can pull them out of a hat and use them as an excuse to invade, interfere, whatever he wants.

He's been messing with the Ukraine since very early on in his time as leader of Russia. The Ukraine is much poorer because of it.

Totally wrong.
Russia does not and never has wanted or taken any country.
It has more land and resources than it knows what to do with.
The closest Russia has ever come was to build border security by influencing neighbor politics towards it security.

And NATO is totally and completely corrupt and aggressive.
If it were not, then it would not decide to do something based completely on political desires.
It would have a constitution, laws, courts, a judicial system, etc., so it was run by the rule law instead.
It is totally and completely corrupt, and is completely offensive instead of defensive.
A principled organization would be defending little countries, not just those of equal corruption.

And you are ignorant or lying about Georgia. Russia took nothing, but stopped the aggression by Georgia against South Ossetia natives.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm not going to repeat the argument of the other side because you know it and are never going to accept it.

Conversation over.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Totally wrong.
Russia does not and never has wanted or taken any country.
It has more land and resources than it knows what to do with.
The closest Russia has ever come was to build border security by influencing neighbor politics towards it security.

And NATO is totally and completely corrupt and aggressive.
If it were not, then it would not decide to do something based completely on political desires.
It would have a constitution, laws, courts, a judicial system, etc., so it was run by the rule law instead.
It is totally and completely corrupt, and is completely offensive instead of defensive.
A principled organization would be defending little countries, not just those of equal corruption.

And you are ignorant or lying about Georgia. Russia took nothing, but stopped the aggression by Georgia against South Ossetia natives.

The problem here is that Putin's logic and yours might be very different. Russia has already taken the Crimea. If it already has "more land and resources than it know what to do with", then why take the Crimea?

Though a lot of it is to do with control. Putin is happy to have Belarus with a dictator who knows who to bow down to, so Belarus gets left alone. Ukraine started leaning towards the west, but did so too slowly because it was too poor, unlike Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Whatever you think NATO is, it's more or less the thing that binds the US and its allies together. Without the US there is no NATO. The US is corrupt, a war monger. Russia does not want the Ukraine becoming a US ally.

I didn't say Russia took anything in Georgia. And the Georgians went in to South Ossetia because the South Ossetian were bombarding Georgia.

Georgia, S. Ossetia talk war after 6 die in clash - Georgia

News and Press Release in English on Georgia; published on 2 Aug 2008 by Reuters

reliefweb.int

"The commander of Georgia's peacekeeping force in the region, Mamuka Kurashvili, was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying South Ossetian peacekeepers shot at a Georgian village and suspected Russian peacekeepers of taking part."

Deaths in South Ossetia fighting

Georgia denies the presence of snipers and starting the exchange of fire.

www.aljazeera.com

"
Shota Utiashvili, the Georgian interior ministry spokesman, denied that Georgian positions had fired first.

“The Ossetians opened fire, including with grenade launchers, and the Georgian side only returned fire.”"

Obviously it's difficult to know who did what. I've posted Georgians speaking about it.

HOWEVER, looking at what Russia does, Russia creates conflicts for its own gains. It uses these for its own purposes.

 

[Rigby5]

The problem here is that Putin's logic and yours might be very different. Russia has already taken the Crimea. If it already has "more land and resources than it know what to do with", then why take the Crimea?

Though a lot of it is to do with control. Putin is happy to have Belarus with a dictator who knows who to bow down to, so Belarus gets left alone. Ukraine started leaning towards the west, but did so too slowly because it was too poor, unlike Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Whatever you think NATO is, it's more or less the thing that binds the US and its allies together. Without the US there is no NATO. The US is corrupt, a war monger. Russia does not want the Ukraine becoming a US ally.

I didn't say Russia took anything in Georgia. And the Georgians went in to South Ossetia because the South Ossetian were bombarding Georgia.

Georgia, S. Ossetia talk war after 6 die in clash - Georgia

News and Press Release in English on Georgia; published on 2 Aug 2008 by Reuters

reliefweb.int

"The commander of Georgia's peacekeeping force in the region, Mamuka Kurashvili, was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying South Ossetian peacekeepers shot at a Georgian village and suspected Russian peacekeepers of taking part."

Deaths in South Ossetia fighting

Georgia denies the presence of snipers and starting the exchange of fire.

www.aljazeera.com

"
Shota Utiashvili, the Georgian interior ministry spokesman, denied that Georgian positions had fired first.

“The Ossetians opened fire, including with grenade launchers, and the Georgian side only returned fire.”"

Obviously it's difficult to know who did what. I've posted Georgians speaking about it.

HOWEVER, looking at what Russia does, Russia creates conflicts for its own gains. It uses these for its own purposes.

Sure I could be wrong about Putin, but why would Putin want anything in the Ukraine, a violent and troublesome group of people that are not worth the effort.
But the ethnic Russians in the east, like the Crimea and Donetsk, are an entirely different matter.
They are NOT Ukrainians and require Putin to defend if he wants to retain any credibility.

Of course it is Zelensky's western alliances that upset Putin.
They should.
The Ukraine should be politically aligned with Russia, the only country that was no threat.
NATO and the EU are historic military and economic threats.
And obviously Zelensky is a US puppet, who does not at all care for the welfare of the Ukraine.
If he was not corrupt, then he would not have been stealing billions in Russian oil, violating treaties, murdering ethnic Russians, and trying to put NATO nukes on Russia's border.

The south Ossetians may have started it. I do not know.
But the use of force by Russia to reduce the armed conflict, can not be used as an example of Russian aggression.
Russia gained nothing from their peacekeeper roll in South Ossetia.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Sure I could be wrong about Putin, but why would Putin want anything in the Ukraine, a violent and troublesome group of people that are not worth the effort.
But the ethnic Russians in the east, like the Crimea and Donetsk, are an entirely different matter.
They are NOT Ukrainians and require Putin to defend if he wants to retain any credibility.

Of course it is Zelensky's western alliances that upset Putin.
They should.
The Ukraine should be politically aligned with Russia, the only country that was no threat.
NATO and the EU are historic military and economic threats.
And obviously Zelensky is a US puppet, who does not at all care for the welfare of the Ukraine.
If he was not corrupt, then he would not have been stealing billions in Russian oil, violating treaties, murdering ethnic Russians, and trying to put NATO nukes on Russia's border.

The south Ossetians may have started it. I do not know.
But the use of force by Russia to reduce the armed conflict, can not be used as an example of Russian aggression.
Russia gained nothing from their peacekeeper roll in South Ossetia.

Because Putin wants the glory of the Soviet Union back again.

He's interfering in all the old Soviet countries. He was in Kazakhstan in January.

Russia has been a threat to the Ukraine ever since Putin took over. Why should the Ukraine, a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, be forced to align with anyone?

The problem for the Ukraine is they, like a lot of countries, have a choice between the US and Russia (or China rising up). Not a good choice and clearly the US have let the Ukraine down big time.

I didn't say Georgia was an example of Russian force to start something. I said it was an example of them being able to create situations in order to get what they want.

You think Russia gained nothing in South Ossetia, but then Russia probably thinks very differently. They put Georgia in its place and kept it's little instigator in place. Georgia is under Russian control, and Georgia knows it. Russian power. Putin is a power man.

 

[Rigby5]

Because Putin wants the glory of the Soviet Union back again.

He's interfering in all the old Soviet countries. He was in Kazakhstan in January.

Russia has been a threat to the Ukraine ever since Putin took over. Why should the Ukraine, a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, be forced to align with anyone?

The problem for the Ukraine is they, like a lot of countries, have a choice between the US and Russia (or China rising up). Not a good choice and clearly the US have let the Ukraine down big time.

I didn't say Georgia was an example of Russian force to start something. I said it was an example of them being able to create situations in order to get what they want.

You think Russia gained nothing in South Ossetia, but then Russia probably thinks very differently. They put Georgia in its place and kept it's little instigator in place. Georgia is under Russian control, and Georgia knows it. Russian power. Putin is a power man.

That makes no sense.
Russia has always had more "glory" than they knew what to do with.
They never needed that.
What they do need and have always needed is a tactical buffer around their border, and strategic buffer for their economy.
The Ukraine was strategically important because they were the only pipelines to the west.
Russia needed the Ukraine as an economic emissary to the west.
Russia was NEVER any sort of "threat" to the Ukraine at all, and it was the US subverting the government in the Ukraine, that caused the Ukraine to commits deliberate acts of war against Russia.

And again, Russia had nothing to do with the situation in Georgia.
That was caused entirely by the South Ossetians and Georgiana, both screwing up.
Stalin deliberately divided up factions like Ossetia, and there are going to always be tensions due to those remnants.
The idea Russia or Putin "gained" anything from it is silly.
More likely it was just another CIA plot, like we are constantly hatching.

 

[frigidweirdo]

That makes no sense.
Russia has always had more "glory" than they knew what to do with.
They never needed that.
What they do need and have always needed is a tactical buffer around their border, and strategic buffer for their economy.
The Ukraine was strategically important because they were the only pipelines to the west.
Russia needed the Ukraine as an economic emissary to the west.
Russia was NEVER any sort of "threat" to the Ukraine at all, and it was the US subverting the government in the Ukraine, that caused the Ukraine to commits deliberate acts of war against Russia.

And again, Russia had nothing to do with the situation in Georgia.
That was caused entirely by the South Ossetians and Georgiana, both screwing up.
Stalin deliberately divided up factions like Ossetia, and there are going to always be tensions due to those remnants.
The idea Russia or Putin "gained" anything from it is silly.
More likely it was just another CIA plot, like we are constantly hatching.

It's like you think "glory" is something you can have too much of. You keep saying "Russia has more of this than they know what to do with", as if you can predict Putin like this.

Of course Russia is a threat to the Ukraine. It has been for a long time.

Presidential candidates poisoned (along with all the other poisonings, like Litvinenko and Skripal in the UK which more or less prove they poisoned Yushchenko).

Essentially Putin saw the Ukraine as Russian territory to do with as they chose. When the Ukraine moved away from Russia towards the EU they attacked. They poisoned Yushchenko because they wanted to dictate who the leader of the Ukraine was.

Putin claimed the Ukraine was supplying arms to Georgia. At the same time Putin was saying how he had an obligation for the Russians in the Ukraine and Georgia. I mean, this is what Hitler did. This was his casus belli in the Sudentenland and Austria.

Oh, if you think Russia had nothing to do with Georgia, you're living in a fantasy world. In 2007 two fighter jets launched a missile into Georgia. In the same year the Russian ambassador said the Georgian people were a "dying-out nation". I mean..... Why?

In April 2008 a Russian plane shot down a Georgian drone in Georgia.

Russia denies all of this though.

In fact Russia denied shooting down the MA flight over the Ukraine in 2014. They claimed the Ukrainians had shot it down. They even provided the "evidence" of a google maps shot showing the exact point this happened.

MH17 photo of fighter jet released in Russia slammed

A photo published on Russian television that appeared to show MH17 being shot out of the sky by a Ukrainian fighter jet has been vigorously refuted by citizen sleuths across the world.

www.smh.com.au

This was AFTER Russia had reported that the rebels in the Ukraine had done it.

Novaya Gazeta Editor: Boroday Called Moscow Press About Downing of Civilian Airliner

<p>In a 7 August radio interview with Karina Orlova of the program “Separate Opinion” on Ekho Moskvy, Dmitry Muratov, editor of Novaya Gazeta, commented on the resignation of Aleksandr Boroday from the post of “prime minister” in the self-declared “Donetsk People’s Republic,” and discussed a...

www.interpretermag.com

"Muratov: It’s of course connected to the tragic fate of the Malaysian Boeing. I know that Aleksandr Boroday called the head of one of the main media organizations which covers events in Ukraine approximately 40 minutes after the Boeing perished and said, “likely we shot down a civilian airline.”"

So we know Russia lies. We know they use misinformation all the time. We know right now Russia is doing just that, lying to its people about EVERYTHING that's going on in the Ukraine. So why would they have told the truth in Georgia?

 

[GLASNOST]

Russia is winning​

Of course, Russia is winning. Russia and the US always win (officially). It's the proxy saps that lose - Ukraine.