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He could grow a pair an call his wife, Putin...
Russia escalating push into eastern Ukraine
- Thread starter JimH52
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He could grow a pair an call his wife, Putin...
Stratford57
Diamond Member
Bullsh*t.
Bryan MacDonald is an Irish journalist:
But a quarter of a century after modern Ukraine was established, how independent is it really? If we define it as the ability to conduct policy in the best interests of its own citizens, then we can’t describe Ukraine as truly autonomous.
What we know is that the nation has lurched from crisis to crisis and that these events are usually presented in western media as battles between pro-western “reformers” and pro-Russian “kleptocrats.” This is hogwash. The reality is that the country is split into two camps of oligarchs, one side based in Kiev and western regions (led by current President Poroshenko) and the other rooted in the east (previously controlled by one of Ukraine’s richest men, Rinat Akhmetov). What happened after Maidan is that the former cabal replaced the latter in the corridors of power. And for the past two years, they’ve been busy stealing what they regard as the spoils of victory. Something even America’s influential ‘Foreign Policy’ journal now admits.
The two outliers [from all post Soviet states] have been Ukraine and Moldova. Both have obvious natural advantages, being close to EU markets and blessed with good climates. They also inherited advanced infrastructure from the Soviet era. Yet, the two countries are now worse off than they were 25 years ago.
Let’s just look at Ukraine’s figures. In 2014, its economy was 30 percent smaller - in real terms - than in 1991 and the average citizen was 20 percent less well off. After two years of recession, those numbers are surely worse now. To add insult to injury, it is also the world’s most unequal country.
When you consider the USSR bequeathed a vast industrial base to Kiev, the situation is even more startling. The country was once a world leader in aviation and machinery production and had one of the planet’s most extensive rail systems. A case in point highlights the level of mismanagement is the story of Antonov, which built the world’s largest plane, the An-225. This year, Antonov was liquidated because the government forced it to sever its contract with Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), purely for political reasons.
Twenty five years ago, Ukraine was on a par with Poland. Today, it would need to grow by about 10 percent per annum until 2032, just to catch up with where its more successful neighbor is now. With that in mind, you’d expect NATO members to offer Ukraine a type of ‘Marshall Plan’ to reboot its failed economy, but nothing has been forthcoming. Because they know the funds would be stolen.
Armed with this knowledge, Western leaders are content to exploit Ukraine as a buffer against Russia. As Barack Obama has admitted, Ukraine “is a core interest for Moscow, in a way that it is not for the United States.” Thus, by keeping Ukraine on a tight leash they can antagonize Russia, without needing to spend huge amounts of money.
For the current regime in Kiev, the definition of Ukrainian independence is to avoid any sort of relationship with Moscow. As the scholar Nicolai Petro has correctly noted, the root of Ukraine’s economic collapse is the “ideologically driven choice to sever all ties with Russia, the country that has historically been its major trading partner and chief investor.”
“In little over a year, living standards in Ukraine have fallen by half, the value of the currency has slumped by more than two-thirds, and inflation has skyrocketed to 43 percent. Yet, even as the economy has collapsed, the government has insisted on economic policies that can only be termed suicidal,” Petro recently wrote.
However, one particular policy sums up the madness that has gripped Kiev.You see, Ukraine doesn’t want to be seen to be buying Russian gas so it refuses to purchase directly from Gazprom, instead obtaining its energy from Slovakia. Except it’s not Slovakia’s gas, because that country doesn’t have any of its own. Now the funny part is that Bratislava imports 90 percent of its requirements from Russia and it then re-sells the stuff it imports from Russia to Ukraine at a 30 percent premium.
Therefore, Kiev is paying $130 for $100 gas because it doesn’t want to admit that it’s Russian gas. This is proof of the mindset of Ukrainian policymakers.
Twenty five years after the USSR collapsed, Ukraine is worse off than it was under direct rule from Moscow.
Currently, it’s financially beholden to the IMF, which can reduce its economy to rubble with a stroke of a pen and its leaders are apparently chosen by foreign officials and wealthy lobbyists with no connection to the country. To make matters worse, Kiev has completely burned its bridges with Russia, which hosts the largest Ukrainian diaspora in the world.
Modern Ukraine is 25 yrs old, but is it actually independent?
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/357039-ukraine-independence-ussr-maidan/
EverCurious
Gold Member
I don't have a dog in this fight so I don't think it's America's business. What I've read, out of mere curiosity, is that folks in Ukraine wanted to go back to Russia, voted to do so, and we're told to **** off. It struck me rather like the civil war in America, and similarly to America, both the north and south called in foreign government assistance. It's what happens - same thing with Assad frankly.
IMO It is not America's business to decide the fate of civil wars in sovereign nations, I think we should butt out in both those countries. Its funny cause the left and Obama were saying the same shit about the entire ME. Yes, we pulled out and shit went bad there, now we got ISIS who decided "death to America" was a good slogan, not a good thing for the US but whatever as long as it stays over there. In the case of Assad and Ukraine though, worse case we end up with Russia getting a couple slips of land "oh noes!" - just not on my radar for give a shit.
IMO It is not America's business to decide the fate of civil wars in sovereign nations, I think we should butt out in both those countries. Its funny cause the left and Obama were saying the same shit about the entire ME. Yes, we pulled out and shit went bad there, now we got ISIS who decided "death to America" was a good slogan, not a good thing for the US but whatever as long as it stays over there. In the case of Assad and Ukraine though, worse case we end up with Russia getting a couple slips of land "oh noes!" - just not on my radar for give a shit.
In other words, you don't know. All you can do is react to whatever Trump does. If he takes aggressive military action, you'd *****. If he stays out of it, you'd *****. If he negotiated peace, you'd *****.
How is Trump supposed to do that? Sanctions won't do shit. You going to enlist in the army and fight for the Ukraine?
Still no response from leftist loons on what they want the US to do. We either intervene with military, or not. We either accept the current situation and agree that eastern Ukraine is independent, or not. The loons can't take a stance because they would either be asking for war with Russia, or just keep repeating that Trump "let" Russia get away with whatever it wants, despite the fact this all happened on Obama's watch.
Stratford57
Diamond Member
You nailed it. All liberals' opinions have been told them by their masters.Very often those opinions contradict with each others, but the sheep either don't notice or don't care.
ESay
Gold Member
- Mar 14, 2015
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Maybe these things will be enough to begin with:
1. To demand that the current Ukrainian government do real reforms rather than imitate them. Under the word “reforms” I mean the fighting corruption in the first turn because without it anything else will be in vain. If there are such reforms, then there are financial inflows from the Western countries and organizations; if there are not, then good buy, guys.
2. Realization of the Minsk agreements by both sides, step by step, with clear established terms, using the carrot and the stick approach. If the rebels comply with the agreements, then gradually lift the sanctions against Russia; if the Ukrainian government doesn’t comply, then impose sanctions against them. And vice versa. It is important to follow the letter of the agreements because the government and the rebels use different interpretations what is written there.
3. To put aside the Crimean issue in the foreseeable future.
4. To establish an international tribunal on the MH17. The main goal of it should be establishing the truth about the downing and bringing the guilty ones to the justice regardless what side they represent.
ESay
Gold Member
- Mar 14, 2015
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What the imprisoned judges are you talking about?
IrinaNoblesse
Active Member
Putin already had the green light under former president Obama. He took the Crimean Peninsula, started a war in Eastern Ukraine and bombed thousands in Syria. Obama did nothing.
I have family in Izmail, Ukraine and I have Russian and Ukrainian blood in my veins. I've been to Izmail and I've seen the fear. Putin is a disaster for both Russia and Ukraine. I know Obama would do nothing. I suspected Clinton would go too far and drag us into another war. With Trump I have hope. Maybe he'll find a non military way to stop Putin. I'm not naive and I don't expect a miracle from president Trump. But maybe, just maybe his different approach, an approach based on friendship and negotiation will work. Nothing else has worked.
Stratford57
Diamond Member
I'm from Eastern Ukraine, and our people are looking forward for Putin's help. But his hands have been tied too tight by Obama's administration. USA/EU criminal actions and the coup that's what has been a disaster. They made a pawn from our home land, a pawn in their dirty geopolitical games. You are just a victim of Ukrainian/Western/Soros propaganda just like all the liberals in USA.
CIS-EMO political analyst of an International Monitoring Organization, Stanislav Byshok, Aug 21, 2016 :
Honestly, I don’t understand why Ukraine needs Donbass. Let’s suggest tomorrow all the rebels will put their weapons aside and Ukraine will have its border with Russia back, what will Ukraine gain? Four million people, who have a lot of reasons to hate Ukraine, all those people will have to be supplied with jobs and food. That’s why I think, Poroshenko is the last person in the world, who wants Donbass back. Actually, I think comeback of Donbass is his worst nightmare.
--
Over $12 billion disappears from Ukraine’s budget every year, and global graft watchdog Transparency International ranks the country as Europe’s most corrupt.
Why Ukraine Must Outsource Its Fight Against Corruption
--
NY Times:
In these circumstances Mr. Poroshenko seems to have accepted continuing corruption as the price to pay for modicum of maneuvering room. But the president, the prime minister and the parliament must me made to understand that the International Monitory Fund and the donor nations, like United States, can’t continue to shovel money into a corrupt swamp unless the government starts shaping the democratic rule that Ukrainians demanded in their protests.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/opinion/ukraines-unyielding-corruption.html?_r=0
Also Putin's fault?
Last edited:
Stratford57
Diamond Member
This is how Putin explained Ukrainian escalation of violence today:
“The Ukrainian leadership today needs money, and the best way to extort money is [to do that] from the European Union, from certain countries in Europe, from the United States and international institutions, presenting itself as a victim of aggression,” Putin said.
“As we know, the current Ukrainian government took a one-sided position to support one of the candidates during the election campaign in the US,” he said.
“What’s more, some [Ukrainian] oligarchs were even financing this candidate – or female candidate to be more precise – likely with approval from the government.
“Now they want to improve relations with the current administration and also using a conflict – it is always better, always more convenient, easier to draw in the new administration in solving the Ukrainian problems and thus establish some kind of dialogue.”
“The Ukrainian opposition has been more active amid clear [government] failures in the economic area and social policy,” Putin said. He noted that the ruling elite in Kiev is now seeking to silence the opposition and “mobilize” people around the government, which is easier to achieve “against the background of a renewal of some conflict.”
“I think that the current Ukrainian leadership is not ready at all to apply the Minsk agreements and is looking for a reason to refuse their implementation.”
Putin on E. Ukraine flare-up: Kiev trying to extort US, EU cash by playing the victim
IrinaNoblesse
Active Member
I'm not a liberal. I'm a moderate republican.
I also speak, read and write fluent Ukrainian and Russian. I read both Russian and Ukrainian websites and I've been to Izmail four times (and Russia twice) and while in Izmail I saw the local tv news reports and read the local papers. I won't pretend to know as much as you do, seeing as you come from Eastern Ukraine, but I can assure you I'm no victim of western propaganda.
As I said before I have both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors. I sympathize with the people of Eastern Ukraine, I truly do. The bombing of them by the Ukrainian government was horrible and unnecessary. I did not support this.
We both know the situation in Ukraine is not a simple one. It's complicated and many Ukrainians have mixed loyalty. I feel Putin has taken advantage of the chaos to fulfill his own goals. I also know that the Ukrainian government is not blameless.
War isn't going to solve the issue. That's all Putin offers. I don't feel Putin's hands were tied by Obama. Putin was instead busy in Syria.
I have hope that there can be a negotiated peace in Ukraine. Maybe that's far fetched by that's all I have the ability to do is hope, and vote for someone who might solve the issue which I did.
If you have family in Eastern Ukraine I wish you and them all the best. I can only imagine the unease you must feel.
charwin95
Gold Member
You are missing something buddy. Real Independent journalism and other CNN rivals are more than happy to discredit or disprove fake news especially from CNN that are viewed worldwide.............. so where are they?
Russian news media are controlled by Putin owned by his cronies......... There are no real independent news media in Russia.
What do you think will happen to a reporter if he/she printed something about Putin corruptness or against Russian aggressions?
IrinaNoblesse
Active Member
No country wants another country taking their land from them by force.
Perhaps Putin should try to buy Donbass from Ukraine?
Stratford57
Diamond Member
When the rest of the world finally gets to know all the truth about Poroshenko's crimes in Ukraine, including killing civilians who disagree with Kiev Junta, throwing them into prison, torturing them, breeding Nazis in the middle of Europe, putting the country into extreme misery (the people are dying from stress and hunger, no war even needed!), for stealing the money, etc., may be then the world (including yourself!) will open its eyes and demand to judge all of them for their numerous crimes.
Some people in the world start already differing sh*t from Shinola:
Spiegel: Dangerous Propaganda: Network Close To NATO Military Leader Fueled Ukraine Conflict
Working with dubious sourcing, a group close to NATO's chief military commander Philip Breedlove sought to secure weapons deliveries for Ukraine, a trove of newly released emails revealed. The efforts served to intensify the conflict between the West and Russia.
The newly leaked emails reveal a clandestine network of Western agitators around the NATO military chief, whose presence fueled the conflict in Ukraine. Many allies found in Breedlove's alarmist public statements about alleged large Russian troop movements cause for concern early on.
Breedlove sought counsel from some very prominent people, his emails show. Among them were Wesley Clark, Breedlove's predecessor at NATO, Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs at the State Department, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the US ambassador to Kiev.
Karber's emails constantly made it sound as though the apocalypse was only a few weeks away. "The front is now everywhere," he told Breedlove in an email at the beginning of 2015, adding that Russian agents and their proxies "have begun launching a series of terrorist attacks, assassinations, kidnappings and infrastructure bombings," in an effort to destabilize Kiev and other Ukrainian cities.
What's more: Nuland, a diplomat who shares many of the same views as Breedlove, could move into an even more important role after the November election -- she's considered a potential candidate for secretary of state.
Dangerous Propaganda: Network Close To NATO Military Leader Fueled Ukraine Conflict - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International
charwin95
Gold Member
Sounds like anti Obama.
IrinaNoblesse
Active Member
I assure you my eyes are open. My family in Izmail keeps me informed.
My family in Izmail talked about this. They believed the Ukrainian government was exaggerating the threat from Russia. However Putin putting troops near the eastern border didn't help calm fears.
I understand you wanting Russia's help. But I think it's dangerous making a deal with the devil (Putin).
Then again we have a saying in America. The devil you know is better than the one you don't.
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